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| [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138002] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 09:06  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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Hi Gene,
I am working on a group buy for turn plates that should work out to be about $90 a pair. I will let everyone know when I receive one pair and confirm that they are of good enough quality to use with our coaches. Any digital level with a reset to zero function and a spec of +- 0.1 degrees will be fine so long as you fabricate some kind of a standoff to allow the level to register at two, three or four points around the perimeter of the rim over the top of the lug nuts and center caps. With that simple set up and a tape measure the owner can measure everything, but do so in the order of tire pressure, ride height, caster (need the turn plates), camber and toe. With proper safety precautions it appears you can set everything with the tires on the ground as the weight is carried primarily via the lower A arms leaving the upper A arms only lightly loaded and you are only going to move them a small amount right at the pivot points.
Without turn plates your suggested process is correct if you do it in the order of tire pressure, ride height, max caster (pull the back of the upper A arm as far towards the center of the coach as possible), camber (adjusted by moving the front of the upper A arm in and out until the rim is perpendicular to the level floor on which the coach is sitting), and toe. Drive the coach and do it again. The issue will be that you will not necessarily achieve maximum EQUAL camber as you can using the turn plates.
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
541-592-5360
Founder of the Southern Oregon Guild
www.southernoregonguild.org
Member of the Siskiyou Guild
www.siskiyouguild.org
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 05:40:54 -0700
From: gene Fisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Message-ID:
<CADg-sf_6zTGsiP71x=EnnijiCem8TVTY0_7cHkqQSGVxQjdd=g@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
I am still trying to follow this:
so if you do not want to calculate the caster ( just set to max)
you do not need a rotation plate - is that correct?
just park on a level surface
center the steering
set the height (by the book)
set the tow in = 0 ( measure f/ b from a good tread)
set the camber = 0 (use a digital level across the rim)
set the caster at = max (set the offset bushings)
drive the GMC 10 miles
and do it again.
This is "necessary and sufficient" for the GMC?
gene
>
> Just another version of a turnplate for the DIY alignment guys.
>
> http://www.arkansaspontiacs.org/techstories/turnplates/turnplates.html
>
> Bob Drewes in SESD
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
541-592-5360
Founder of the Southern Oregon Guild
www.southernoregonguild.org
Member of the Siskiyou Guild
www.siskiyouguild.org
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138006 is a reply to message #138002] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 09:15  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jerry,
Do the turn plates you're considering permit lateral movement as well as
rotation? Without that feature, I don't see how any turn plate can be of
any value since the wheels must be able to move laterally when lowered onto
the plates. If they have good, accurate, angle scales, even I'd be
interested.
Thanks,
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Work Jerry <glwork@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> I am working on a group buy for turn plates that should work out to be
> about $90 a pair. I will let everyone know when I receive one pair and
> confirm that they are of good enough quality to use with our coaches...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138012 is a reply to message #138002] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 10:01 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Do you mean castor not camber ?
Gene
FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
On Aug 8, 2011, at 7:06 AM, Work Jerry <glwork@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> I am working on a group buy for turn plates that should work out to be about $90 a pair. I will let everyone know when I receive one pair and confirm that they are of good enough quality to use with our coaches. Any digital level with a reset to zero function and a spec of +- 0.1 degrees will be fine so long as you fabricate some kind of a standoff to allow the level to register at two, three or four points around the perimeter of the rim over the top of the lug nuts and center caps. With that simple set up and a tape measure the owner can measure everything, but do so in the order of tire pressure, ride height, caster (need the turn plates), camber and toe. With proper safety precautions it appears you can set everything with the tires on the ground as the weight is carried primarily via the lower A arms leaving the upper A arms only lightly loaded and you are only going to move them a small amount right at the pivot points.
>
> Without turn plates your suggested process is correct if you do it in the order of tire pressure, ride height, max caster (pull the back of the upper A arm as far towards the center of the coach as possible), camber (adjusted by moving the front of the upper A arm in and out until the rim is perpendicular to the level floor on which the coach is sitting), and toe. Drive the coach and do it again. The issue will be that you will not necessarily achieve maximum EQUAL camber as you can using the turn plates.
>
> Jerry
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
> Visitors always welcome!
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
> 541-592-5360
>
> Founder of the Southern Oregon Guild
> www.southernoregonguild.org
> Member of the Siskiyou Guild
> www.siskiyouguild.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 05:40:54 -0700
> From: gene Fisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Message-ID:
> <CADg-sf_6zTGsiP71x=EnnijiCem8TVTY0_7cHkqQSGVxQjdd=g@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> I am still trying to follow this:
>
> so if you do not want to calculate the caster ( just set to max)
>
> you do not need a rotation plate - is that correct?
>
> just park on a level surface
> center the steering
> set the height (by the book)
> set the tow in = 0 ( measure f/ b from a good tread)
> set the camber = 0 (use a digital level across the rim)
> set the caster at = max (set the offset bushings)
>
> drive the GMC 10 miles
> and do it again.
>
> This is "necessary and sufficient" for the GMC?
>
> gene
>
>
>
>>
>> Just another version of a turnplate for the DIY alignment guys.
>>
>> http://www.arkansaspontiacs.org/techstories/turnplates/turnplates.html
>>
>> Bob Drewes in SESD
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
> Visitors always welcome!
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
> 541-592-5360
>
> Founder of the Southern Oregon Guild
> www.southernoregonguild.org
> Member of the Siskiyou Guild
> www.siskiyouguild.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138050 is a reply to message #138002] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 13:24 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> just park on a level surface
> center the steering
> set the height (by the book)
> set the caster at = max (with or without offset bushings)
> set the camber = 0 (use a digital level across the rim)
> set the toe in = 0 ( measure f/ b from a good tread)
>
> drive the GMC 10 miles
> and do it again.
I would modify this to:
park in a level paved place (preferably concrete) after driving the coach around a little to settle parts.
center the steering
set the height (by the book, adjusted for non-oem tire size)
set the caster at max with a guess at 0 camber (ie: rear cam bolts as close to the frame as possible, front cam bolts centered in the slot).
check caster is equal-ish side to side (see below) and adjust if it differs by more than (guessing) 1/3 of a degree.
set the camber = 0 ...
set the toe = 0 ...
drive the GMC 10 miles
and do it again
My theory (which is mine :-), and unproven) is that you can compare the side to side relative caster
without setting the wheels to specific angles, as long as you measure both sides at the same time.
Both wheels will go through exactly the same total angular change, even though that may not
be the same travel from center as the more traditional method of turning, say, 20 degrees.
Note: you can NOT calculate actual caster with this method, you can only compare the left and right sides.
That is:
Turn the wheels all the way to the left (we want to go at least 15 degrees from center, more is good)
Set your digital level on the face of the wheels in between the lugs vertically (or use your handy jig if you have one).
Measure both the right and left wheel camber angles at this position. Write them down.
Turn the wheels all the way to the right.
Again measure both the right and left wheel camber angles at this position. Write them down.
Subtract the two right measurements from each other, and the two left measurements from each other.
The results should be within (I'm guessing) 1/3 degree of each other. Less is better.
I hope to experiment with this, but at the moment our coach is stripped down to paint
and nowhere near a level paved place.
But as others have said, the proof is in the driving. If the simpler approach
yields good handling and even tire wear, don't mess with it.
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138071 is a reply to message #138050] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 15:45 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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| KB wrote on Mon, 08 August 2011 13:24 |
>
My theory (which is mine  , and unproven) is that you can compare the side to side relative caster
without setting the wheels to specific angles, as long as you measure both sides at the same time.
Both wheels will go through exactly the same total angular change, even though that may not
be the same travel from center as the more traditional method of turning, say, 20 degrees.
|
Karen,
I turn the steering wheel one full turn in one direction then back to center and one full turn to the other direction with wheels sitting on about 8 layers of plastic bags. One full turn equates to about 20 degrees according to my crude measurements, however, someone with turntables or accurate way to measure angles could verify. This inexpensive approach has worked well for me to set caster the same on both wheels. BTW... I have a LongAcre caster/camber gauge - good investment.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138096 is a reply to message #138002] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 18:35 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> I turn the steering wheel one full turn in one direction then back to center and one full turn to the other direction with wheels sitting on about 8 layers of plastic bags. One full turn equates to about 20 degrees according to my crude measurements, however, someone with turntables or accurate way to measure angles could verify. This inexpensive approach has worked well for me to set caster the same on both wheels. BTW... I have a LongAcre caster/camber gauge - good investment.
I like that one -- avoids stressing the power steering when going all the way to the stops,
but still gives a pretty uniform angle. Good approach. Do you aim to get caster exactly
the same (within reason) or within some range??
thanks!
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138109 is a reply to message #138096] |
Mon, 08 August 2011 20:16 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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| KB wrote on Mon, 08 August 2011 18:35 |
I like that one -- avoids stressing the power steering when going all the way to the stops,
but still gives a pretty uniform angle. Good approach. Do you aim to get caster exactly
the same (within reason) or within some range??
|
Karen,
I try to get caster the same on both sides. I set the passenger side first because it is the limiting factor - not sure why that is but on the few coaches I have done, the passenger side always seems to come out 1 to 2 degrees less than the driver's side. Maybe some engineer goofed on the specs or the manufacturing line was set up wrong causing a problem. As others have said, it is easy to get the max caster on the passenger side by moving the rear cam to the back as far as possible, but the drivers side takes a little work to get the caster and camber set to match.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138188 is a reply to message #138002] |
Tue, 09 August 2011 14:52 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> I try to get caster the same on both sides. I set the passenger side first because it is the limiting factor - not sure why that is but on the few coaches I have done, the passenger side always seems to come out 1 to 2 degrees less than the driver's side. Maybe some engineer goofed on the specs or the manufacturing line was set up wrong causing a problem. As others have said, it is easy to get the max caster on the passenger side by moving the rear cam to the back as far as possible, but the drivers side takes a little work to get the caster and camber set to match.
Awesome Randy, thank you!
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138335 is a reply to message #138002] |
Wed, 10 August 2011 20:55 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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Randy,
I have an old Aamco alignment gauge that is somewhat similar to your LongAcre. I was curious what you use to mount it to the GMC wheels/hub, as mine is the magnetic type and doesn't really fit. I picked up a SmartCamber gauge off of e-bay to use that seems to work, but I liked the old Aamco one better.
Thanks,
Craig
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] DIY alignment, another version [message #138339 is a reply to message #138335] |
Wed, 10 August 2011 21:09 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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| Craig Lechowicz wrote on Wed, 10 August 2011 20:55 |
Randy,
I have an old Aamco alignment gauge that is somewhat similar to your LongAcre. I was curious what you use to mount it to the GMC wheels/hub, as mine is the magnetic type and doesn't really fit. I picked up a SmartCamber gauge off of e-bay to use that seems to work, but I liked the old Aamco one better.
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Craig,
Right now I just have a plate that I fabricated to go onto my Eagles wheels. I have four holes drilled into the plate for four of the lugs and then cutouts to allow the plate to fit down past the four remaining lugs. I have to remove the center cover. The magnetic base of the LongAcre then clamps to that plate. Not real easy to use but works and was fast to come up with. I plan on making some plates like Bob Drewes uses but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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