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| [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line [message #130898] |
Sun, 19 June 2011 15:09  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I mentioned in my earlier posting about transmission leakage that
Stick had a leaking "burp" hose to replace. Ever since he's had the
coach, he's complained about fuel smell in the cockpit, especially
after refueling. I was with him recently when he refueled and watched
inside the driver's wheel well while he pumped the gas. As soon as
the tank approached full, an 8" long line of gasoline erupted from a
crack in the 1/2" x 27" rubber hose connecting the steel lines above
and below.
When Stick removed the line yesterday, as soon as he twisted the hose
to break it loose from the steel line, it immediately broke entirely
off in his hand. On both ends.
Expecting to find an unrated hose when I examined it closely, I was
surprised to find the legend GM 6107M, which is their equivalent to
SAE J30R6. It was obvious from the disparate hose clamps on Stick's
coach that the hose was not original, and GM 6107M was not published
until 1980. If we assume that replacement wasn't required for maybe
20 years after the coach was built, that says the hose was <15 years
old. Pretty old, but old enough to crumble in one's hand???
This experience makes me even more anxious to replace all of my rubber
fuel lines, installed 12 years ago. Ignorant as I was then of the
significance of the forthcoming ethanol disaster, I have no idea what
the ratings of my hoses are.
GM 6107M has now been replaced by GM 6165M, corresponding to SAE
J30R7, rated for up to 50 psi and supposedly ethanol-safe.
In researching all this I kept finding references to "sour gas", which
I didn't know what was until I came across this site:
http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/pdf/tsb/tsb_fuel_line.pdf
Here's a quotation: "The laminated tube helps resist cracking caused by
“sour gas,” which forms when unused gas is returned to the fuel tank."
Now that's a new one on me. Sounds like we're degrading our own
gasoline just by recirculating it. Now I wonder about the wisdom of
that Toronado pump, and even more about our high pressure EFI pumps
which produce far more pressure than the <20 psi most of us actually
run through the Throttle Body (TB).
Notice in that article that even they are waffling about 30R7:
"At times, more aggressive fuels can extract the oils that give SAE 30R7
hose its flexibility. Engineers caution that the result can be a brittle, stiff
tube that could greatly reduce the performance and service life of the hose"
Availability is another issue: When Stick tried to find the 1/2" 30R7
to replace his burp hose, there was none in town. And no one even
knew what "30R7" meant. (Though the fact is, from my own examination
of their inventories, that's what they stock) And I'd learned a week
or so earlier that no one had any idea what 30R9 is -- nor do they
have any. O'Riley's at least said "I can order 'fuel injection'
hose."
What I'm trying to say is, "Learn about the available fuel hoses
'cause you ain't gonna get no help at a local store -- at least not in
Americus at CarQuest, NAPA, Advance, O'Riley, or AutoZone -- our
complete selection." Even online is disappointing: Jegs, for example
blatantly advertises their "universal fuel hose" as suitable for use
with carburetors because it "even exceeds 30R6"! Gosh, I'd sure hope
so! But probably will last less than a year with ethanol.
And Summit Racing mentions 30R9 in their ad for Dayco Fuel Injection
hose only in the small print. You'd think that a price of $54.95 for
10' of 3/8" hose they'd offer a little more promotion. :-)
Probably the best thing to do is call one of the Jim's. I didn't
discuss this with JimK when I talked to him the other day, but I
suspect he carries at least 30R7 and hopefully 30R9 in 1/2" ID for the
"burp hose". It's highly unlikely that you'll find hose that large in
stock at any local parts store unless they perhaps cater to heavy
truck services. I believe the burp line is the only place it's used
on the GMC. I'm sure both Jim's will have the 5/16" and 3/8" sizes
that are more commonly used.
The AC Delco reference above pretty well summarizes what I learned,
except the warning: If it's not mentioned, DON'T use it.
For my part, I intend to replace as much fuel line as possible with
steel and attempt to use 30R9 for any needed hoses -- despite its cost
HTH,
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line [message #130903 is a reply to message #130898] |
Sun, 19 June 2011 15:42  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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We have used USCG approved fuel hoses in marine applications for many years.
All equipment that is used for charging batteries, heating internal spaces,
delivering and storage of fuels, and probably others that come to mind after
I finish this post, are subject to Coast Guard inspection and approval. The
hoses are all pretty much teflon lined, and the hoses are hypalon or some
other mfgs designation for the same product, and are reinforced with at
least two separate layers of fabric, finally the outer covering is a UV
resistant and extremely durable synthetic rubber. Hoses like this are not
cheap, but cheap hoses that you run alcohol blended fuel through won't last
much more than a year in that service. If you use it on a boat and get
inspected, expect a big fine. Some of these safety regulations are there for
a reason. If you get a vessel on fire far from shore, unless your initials
are J.C. it is going to be a long swim to shore. The bare minimum hoses that
we should be using on our GMCs is J30R7 or better. I have experienced the
same crumbling hose that Stick did, and it scared the hell out of me. I
dropped the tanks, and replaced all the fuel supply hoses, all the vent
lines, the 1/2" burp line, and the sleeve connectors that connect the filler
manifold to the tanks. I also installed an automatic fire suppression system
under the engine compartment. Fire ain't nothing to mess with.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMc Royale 403
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> I mentioned in my earlier posting about transmission leakage that
> Stick had a leaking "burp" hose to replace. Ever since he's had the
> coach, he's complained about fuel smell in the cockpit, especially
> after refueling. I was with him recently when he refueled and watched
> inside the driver's wheel well while he pumped the gas. As soon as
> the tank approached full, an 8" long line of gasoline erupted from a
> crack in the 1/2" x 27" rubber hose connecting the steel lines above
> and below.
>
> When Stick removed the line yesterday, as soon as he twisted the hose
> to break it loose from the steel line, it immediately broke entirely
> off in his hand. On both ends.
>
> Expecting to find an unrated hose when I examined it closely, I was
> surprised to find the legend GM 6107M, which is their equivalent to
> SAE J30R6. It was obvious from the disparate hose clamps on Stick's
> coach that the hose was not original, and GM 6107M was not published
> until 1980. If we assume that replacement wasn't required for maybe
> 20 years after the coach was built, that says the hose was <15 years
> old. Pretty old, but old enough to crumble in one's hand???
>
> This experience makes me even more anxious to replace all of my rubber
> fuel lines, installed 12 years ago. Ignorant as I was then of the
> significance of the forthcoming ethanol disaster, I have no idea what
> the ratings of my hoses are.
>
> GM 6107M has now been replaced by GM 6165M, corresponding to SAE
> J30R7, rated for up to 50 psi and supposedly ethanol-safe.
>
> In researching all this I kept finding references to "sour gas", which
> I didn't know what was until I came across this site:
>
> http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/pdf/tsb/tsb_fuel_line.pdf
>
> Here's a quotation: "The laminated tube helps resist cracking caused by
> “sour gas,” which forms when unused gas is returned to the fuel tank."
>
> Now that's a new one on me. Sounds like we're degrading our own
> gasoline just by recirculating it. Now I wonder about the wisdom of
> that Toronado pump, and even more about our high pressure EFI pumps
> which produce far more pressure than the <20 psi most of us actually
> run through the Throttle Body (TB).
>
> Notice in that article that even they are waffling about 30R7:
>
> "At times, more aggressive fuels can extract the oils that give SAE 30R7
> hose its flexibility. Engineers caution that the result can be a brittle,
> stiff
> tube that could greatly reduce the performance and service life of the
> hose"
>
> Availability is another issue: When Stick tried to find the 1/2" 30R7
> to replace his burp hose, there was none in town. And no one even
> knew what "30R7" meant. (Though the fact is, from my own examination
> of their inventories, that's what they stock) And I'd learned a week
> or so earlier that no one had any idea what 30R9 is -- nor do they
> have any. O'Riley's at least said "I can order 'fuel injection'
> hose."
>
> What I'm trying to say is, "Learn about the available fuel hoses
> 'cause you ain't gonna get no help at a local store -- at least not in
> Americus at CarQuest, NAPA, Advance, O'Riley, or AutoZone -- our
> complete selection." Even online is disappointing: Jegs, for example
> blatantly advertises their "universal fuel hose" as suitable for use
> with carburetors because it "even exceeds 30R6"! Gosh, I'd sure hope
> so! But probably will last less than a year with ethanol.
>
> And Summit Racing mentions 30R9 in their ad for Dayco Fuel Injection
> hose only in the small print. You'd think that a price of $54.95 for
> 10' of 3/8" hose they'd offer a little more promotion. :-)
>
> Probably the best thing to do is call one of the Jim's. I didn't
> discuss this with JimK when I talked to him the other day, but I
> suspect he carries at least 30R7 and hopefully 30R9 in 1/2" ID for the
> "burp hose". It's highly unlikely that you'll find hose that large in
> stock at any local parts store unless they perhaps cater to heavy
> truck services. I believe the burp line is the only place it's used
> on the GMC. I'm sure both Jim's will have the 5/16" and 3/8" sizes
> that are more commonly used.
>
> The AC Delco reference above pretty well summarizes what I learned,
> except the warning: If it's not mentioned, DON'T use it.
>
> For my part, I intend to replace as much fuel line as possible with
> steel and attempt to use 30R9 for any needed hoses -- despite its cost
>
> HTH,
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line [message #130910 is a reply to message #130898] |
Sun, 19 June 2011 16:23 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 19 June 2011 16:09 |
You'd think that a price of $54.95 for
10' of 3/8" hose they'd offer a little more promotion. 
For my part, I intend to replace as much fuel line as possible with
steel and attempt to use 30R9 for any needed hoses -- despite its cost
HTH,
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
_______________________________________________
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Two summers ago I replaced all my rubber hoses with 30R9 Goodyear brand I did not add any steel lines I hope I don't regret that. The reason I used 30R9 is I believed higher alcohol content gasoline was coming, but the biggest reason was some of the 30R7 hoses on my coach were brittle and cracking but not leaking. I don't know how long they were on the coach but less than 10 years for sure. I went to several Auto Zones to find enough Goodyear 30R9 hoses. They all charged me $3 per foot. I hope these new hoses last 10 years but I have my doubts. I do check them each spring for condition. So far they are soft.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line [message #130931 is a reply to message #130926] |
Sun, 19 June 2011 18:18 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
I used my lathe to make a tool to form a retention bulge on tubing
since I'd never seen a tool for the purpose. It doesn't work all that
great, but it's better than nothing.
You can make a double flare and just force the hose over that. DO NOT
use a single flare. The sharp edge of the single flare will almost
certainly cut through the hose eventually.
Ken H.
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 7:06 PM, larry.whisler wrote:
>
>...
> How do you make the bulged areas of the line where the rubber lines slide over the steel and clamped?
>
> Or does one just use a flare tool and flare the end and clamp the hose over that area?
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line [message #130938 is a reply to message #130898] |
Sun, 19 June 2011 18:57 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Did a Google search for "sour gasoline" and came up with this:
http://papers.sae.org/790659/
I didn't buy the report but the Abstract notes:
"Isolated fuel hose failures have been reported recently for cars equipped
with electronic fuel injection systems. Although all of the factors
responsible for failure are not known, "sour" or hydroperoxide-containing
gasoline was suspected as being the main contributor."
I remembered that Gates Barricade fuel hose was supposedly "better" than the
Goodyear hose and it is now available for fuel injection systems.
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=12468&location_id=5348
I don't know if it would be less affected by sour gasoline.
Bottom line: I reckon in the long haul Ken's right - replace as much of the
rubber fuel lines with steel.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 6:10 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line
Here's a quotation: "The laminated tube helps resist cracking caused by
"sour gas," which forms when unused gas is returned to the fuel tank."
Now that's a new one on me. Sounds like we're degrading our own
gasoline just by recirculating it. Now I wonder about the wisdom of
that Toronado pump, and even more about our high pressure EFI pumps
which produce far more pressure than the <20 psi most of us actually
run through the Throttle Body (TB).
Ken H.
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel "Burp" Line [message #130955 is a reply to message #130926] |
Sun, 19 June 2011 20:33 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| larry.whisler wrote on Sun, 19 June 2011 19:06 |
I am replacing the steel fuel line that runs from the mechanical fuel pump across the front of the coach and then runs over the driver's side front wheel.
I am using 3/8 brake/fuel/transmission line for the replacement and am connecting two pieces together to achieve the length of the original line.
How do you make the bulged areas of the line where the rubber lines slide over the steel and clamped?
Or does one just use a flare tool and flare the end and clamp the hose over that area?
larry whisler
|
Larry
A couple years ago at the Ohio work rally I believe it was Byron Songer had a flaring tool set which would make the bump for hose connections. Maybe he will chime in with the source.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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