Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines
| [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127905] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 15:35  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Following on the tale of Stick's FD & Tom's fuel leaks:
Both Stick's coach with unknown age lines, and mine with 12+ year old
30R7 (or maybe worse) lines, need all the fuel hoses replaced ASAP.
We learned yesterday that Stick's persistent leak when filling the
tanks is from the "burp hose" just below the fuel filler -- it's a
steel reinforced hose, probably hydraulic, that should never have been
installed -- many years ago. Just gushes gas when it burps.
While hose replacement has been discussed here almost as often as
tires, I'm going to broach it again:
It's my intention to use only Goodyear 30R9 hoses.
Short sections for coupling will be mounted, with spring clamps,
between the tank-top fittings and new steel tubes extending past the
tanks' edges.
Beyond the tanks, I expect to use steel lines everywhere possible,
again with short couplings of 30R9. For the supply lines, I've
already got those in place on my coach. We'll have to fabricate lines
for Stick's.
The vent lines will also be converted to steel where feasible, with
separate "burp lines" to near the filler neck connection.
I not only trust steel lines more than rubber, especially in todays
ethanol world, but also expect the steel line to cost a fraction of
what 30R9 does (25'x3/8" 30R9 for $181.97).
The question is, has anyone maintained a list of the steel lines and
hose couplings needed for an installation like I've described? Either
for 23' or 26' will be a big help.
TIA,
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127912 is a reply to message #127910] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 17:25  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Shocking, isn't it? That was the first price Google found. More
searching later found it for $84 for 25' of 3/8". Still 'way more
than steel.
How's that EziBend work? For such easy bending, it seems like it
would have to be an "accordian" -- which would extend under pressure.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Larry <weidnerl@wwt.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 29 May 2011 15:35
>> I not only trust steel lines more than rubber, especially in todays
>> ethanol world, but also expect the steel line to cost a fraction of
>> what 30R9 does (25'x3/8" 30R9 for $181.97).
>>
> HOL..Sh........COW. A fraction of the cost is an understatement!!
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Goodyear-20296571-30r9-Black-Injection/dp/B001VY1MLA
>
> At over $7/ft, I guess maybe I'll do a little more steel...
>
> Speaking of steel, has anyone looked at this stuff?
>
> http://www.brakequip.com/tubes.html
>
> Sounds like a lot easier to work with than steel brake/fuel line. Have not been able to find a price or local supplier on line.
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Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127919 is a reply to message #127910] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 18:36 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
John Sharpe replaced a lot of the fuel line in his Spectrum with what I
believe was aluminum tubing.
I've Cc'd him on this email to make sure he sees it.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 8:02 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines
HOL..Sh........COW. A fraction of the cost is an understatement!!
http://www.amazon.com/Goodyear-20296571-30r9-Black-Injection/dp/B001VY1MLA
At over $7/ft, I guess maybe I'll do a little more steel...
Speaking of steel, has anyone looked at this stuff?
http://www.brakequip.com/tubes.html
Sounds like a lot easier to work with than steel brake/fuel line. Have not
been able to find a price or local supplier on line.
--
Larry :)
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127920 is a reply to message #127905] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 18:43 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Why don't you eliminate the rubber lines completely by using flared or
compression fittings?
The next time I have my tanks down I intend to install them on the lines
that come out of the fuel senders / pickups. There is enough room to use
them after cutting the beads off.
Both Parker Hannifin and Swagelok make a fitting that has a compression
fitting on one side and a flared fitting on the other. The compression side
goes on the fuel sender / pickup; the flared goes to the line across the top
of the tank.
If you're interested I'd be happy to do the research and find you a source.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 6:36 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines
Following on the tale of Stick's FD & Tom's fuel leaks:
Both Stick's coach with unknown age lines, and mine with 12+ year old
30R7 (or maybe worse) lines, need all the fuel hoses replaced ASAP.
We learned yesterday that Stick's persistent leak when filling the
tanks is from the "burp hose" just below the fuel filler -- it's a
steel reinforced hose, probably hydraulic, that should never have been
installed -- many years ago. Just gushes gas when it burps.
While hose replacement has been discussed here almost as often as
tires, I'm going to broach it again:
It's my intention to use only Goodyear 30R9 hoses.
Short sections for coupling will be mounted, with spring clamps,
between the tank-top fittings and new steel tubes extending past the
tanks' edges.
Beyond the tanks, I expect to use steel lines everywhere possible,
again with short couplings of 30R9. For the supply lines, I've
already got those in place on my coach. We'll have to fabricate lines
for Stick's.
The vent lines will also be converted to steel where feasible, with
separate "burp lines" to near the filler neck connection.
I not only trust steel lines more than rubber, especially in todays
ethanol world, but also expect the steel line to cost a fraction of
what 30R9 does (25'x3/8" 30R9 for $181.97).
The question is, has anyone maintained a list of the steel lines and
hose couplings needed for an installation like I've described? Either
for 23' or 26' will be a big help.
TIA,
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127923 is a reply to message #127920] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 19:27 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I'd certainly consider using compression fittings if I could be sure I
could secure the tubes so that vibration didn't break the elbows where
they come out of the tank. I'm not going to go to all the trouble of
cleaning the tanks well enough to solder or braze the lines to the
tank. That leaves using some sort of adhesive -- which I might try.
Even gobs of Liquid Nails set up pretty good. Someone may know of
something better. It would certainly be nice to eliminate all
"rubber" on top of the tanks.
Why do you suggest compression+flare rather than comp.+comp.?
Ken H.
On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Why don't you eliminate the rubber lines completely by using flared or
> compression fittings?
>
> The next time I have my tanks down I intend to install them on the lines
> that come out of the fuel senders / pickups. There is enough room to use
> them after cutting the beads off.
>
> Both Parker Hannifin and Swagelok make a fitting that has a compression
> fitting on one side and a flared fitting on the other. The compression side
> goes on the fuel sender / pickup; the flared goes to the line across the top
> of the tank.
>
> If you're interested I'd be happy to do the research and find you a source.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127934 is a reply to message #127928] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 20:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I'm not going to provide access from the top. I'd rather drop the
tanks than R&R the carpet (or flooring if SHE ever agrees to that).
Ken H.
On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I had the same concerns as Ken when I put steel on top of my tanks so I used short pieces of rubber lines. Now, I plan to do this one more time. My thinking is to do it the same way but cut a hole in the floor, 2, so I can easily access the sender and change the short rubber piece if necessary. Doing it again to put the elec. fuel pumps in the tanks.
> Dan
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Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127938 is a reply to message #127923] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 20:20 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
You raise a good point regarding the effects of vibration on the lines
across the top of the tank.
It was my intent to:
1) run 3M double sided tape for the full length of the lines starting just
after the fittings ending just before they curve around the side of the tank
to secure them to the top of the tank.
2) cover the length adhered with some WIDE duct tape.
When I pulled the tanks at the COOP I noted that the rubber lines were held
in place with duct tape and it was stuck to the top of the tank quite well.
Having said that the tape was only in place for a year or so as I assume Ken
Frey had applied it when he replaced the rubber lines. It would be a good
idea to check the long term effects of temperatures over 100 degrees on
double sided tape and duct tape.
I realize that this might not be the "best" way to do this but felt it was a
way to be able to remove the lines should the fuel tank senders / pickups
needed replacing.
There were two reasons to use compression / flared fittings:
1) I did not know if you could move the fuel tank senders / pickups far
enough to be able to get the tubes out of the compression fittings.
2) I am of the opinion that flared fittings can be removed and replaced
countless times with no leak problems whereas compression fittings can not.
You would probably be OK using compression - compression, however, being the
anally retentive perfectionist that I am . . . . .
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 10:27 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines
Rob,
I'd certainly consider using compression fittings if I could be sure I
could secure the tubes so that vibration didn't break the elbows where
they come out of the tank. I'm not going to go to all the trouble of
cleaning the tanks well enough to solder or braze the lines to the
tank. That leaves using some sort of adhesive -- which I might try.
Even gobs of Liquid Nails set up pretty good. Someone may know of
something better. It would certainly be nice to eliminate all
"rubber" on top of the tanks.
Why do you suggest compression+flare rather than comp.+comp.?
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127942 is a reply to message #127938] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 20:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
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I don't know if vibration on metal fuel lines would be of great concern.
They are used across the front crossmember to the mechanical pump with a
short flex line at the pump, followed by a short line from the pump to the
carb, and many other places on the coach including brake lines. If one uses
teflon lined fuel injection hose for connectors from the sender/fuel line
that exits the tanks, and full circle hose clamps, that should be a bullet
proof set up. Probably don't want metal lines dancing merrily along on top
of the gas tanks though. Some thought should be given to shock absorbing
material that they could lie in, with a hold down that will allow elongation
and contraction while still dampening the shakes.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Ken,
>
> You raise a good point regarding the effects of vibration on the lines
> across the top of the tank.
>
> It was my intent to:
>
> 1) run 3M double sided tape for the full length of the lines starting just
> after the fittings ending just before they curve around the side of the
> tank
> to secure them to the top of the tank.
>
> 2) cover the length adhered with some WIDE duct tape.
>
> When I pulled the tanks at the COOP I noted that the rubber lines were held
> in place with duct tape and it was stuck to the top of the tank quite well.
> Having said that the tape was only in place for a year or so as I assume
> Ken
> Frey had applied it when he replaced the rubber lines. It would be a good
> idea to check the long term effects of temperatures over 100 degrees on
> double sided tape and duct tape.
>
> I realize that this might not be the "best" way to do this but felt it was
> a
> way to be able to remove the lines should the fuel tank senders / pickups
> needed replacing.
>
> There were two reasons to use compression / flared fittings:
>
> 1) I did not know if you could move the fuel tank senders / pickups far
> enough to be able to get the tubes out of the compression fittings.
>
> 2) I am of the opinion that flared fittings can be removed and replaced
> countless times with no leak problems whereas compression fittings can not.
> You would probably be OK using compression - compression, however, being
> the
> anally retentive perfectionist that I am . . . . .
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 10:27 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines
>
> Rob,
>
> I'd certainly consider using compression fittings if I could be sure I
> could secure the tubes so that vibration didn't break the elbows where
> they come out of the tank. I'm not going to go to all the trouble of
> cleaning the tanks well enough to solder or braze the lines to the
> tank. That leaves using some sort of adhesive -- which I might try.
> Even gobs of Liquid Nails set up pretty good. Someone may know of
> something better. It would certainly be nice to eliminate all
> "rubber" on top of the tanks.
>
> Why do you suggest compression+flare rather than comp.+comp.?
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127943 is a reply to message #127928] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 20:40 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Dan,
I too intend to put access ports in the floor.
To get them in the exact right spot I was going to:
1) drop the tanks
2) make a plate that replaced the fuel senders / pickups that had a screw
with a sharpened end on it in the middle of the plate
3) install the plate made in step 2 in the tank
4) raise the tank back in place so the sharpened screw will mark the
aluminum covered foam insulation
5) drill a 1/8" hole up through the insulation and the plywood flooring
6) use a hole saw (diameter TBD) inside to cut down through the plywood
flooring and foam insulation
7) use a router to cut a recess (width and depth TBD) around the hole for a
plug to fit in
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gregg
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 10:48 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines
I had the same concerns as Ken when I put steel on top of my tanks so I used
short pieces of rubber lines. Now, I plan to do this one more time. My
thinking is to do it the same way but cut a hole in the floor, 2, so I can
easily access the sender and change the short rubber piece if necessary.
Doing it again to put the elec. fuel pumps in the tanks. Dan
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127949 is a reply to message #127943] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 22:02 |
John Sharpe
Messages: 489
Registered: February 2006
Location: Texas
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I used stainless steel lines from Summit on the port injection system. Ran the lines solid using compression fittings. Used high pressure flex hoses at the fuel filter and fuel rail. I would think that aluminum would work fine on TBI and carburetor systems. It's less than $1 per foot for a 25' roll, though the fittings can add up pretty fast.
John Sharpe
Humble,TX
'78 Eleganza TBI
'89 Spectrum 2000 MPI V-10
'40 Ford Panel Delivery TPI
johnasharpe@gmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #127959 is a reply to message #127942] |
Sun, 29 May 2011 23:03 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 5/29/2011 6:35 PM, James Hupy wrote:
> I don't know if vibration on metal fuel lines would be of great concern.
> If one uses teflon lined fuel injection hose for connectors from the sender/fuel line
> that exits the tanks, and full circle hose clamps, that should be a bullet
> proof set up.
Right. Two short pieces of hose, two lengths of steel line
(I used 3/8" brake line, cut to length and deburred,
properly bulged on the ends), SS hose clamps. Short pieces
of hose to steel lines running along frame rail to selector
valve and electric pump. Short pieces of hose from there to
steel lines through front frame, etc. New insulated clamps
to frame where necessary.
> Probably don't want metal lines dancing merrily along on top
> of the gas tanks though. Some thought should be given to shock absorbing
> material that they could lie in, with a hold down that will allow elongation
> and contraction while still dampening the shakes.
I used electrical duct sealant. $2 a brick at Home Depot.
It's a lot like dum-dum used to insulate/seal the
refrigerant lines. But not quite as gooey. Roll it out like
a soft Tootsie Roll, mush it in to the thoughtfully placed
trough in the top of the tank(s), set steel lines into it,
roll out another piece, flatten and mush it over the top of
the lines. Adjust as necessary. No rattles, no shakes, no
corrosion, no hardening, no runs, no errors.
Sorry I couldn't come up with a more expensive and complex
solution. On the day I did my tanks, I had given the Rube
Goldberg side of my brain the day off.
Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #128026 is a reply to message #127987] |
Mon, 30 May 2011 18:30 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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We'll probably reach a consensus on this right after those on tires
and brake arrangements. :-)
Ken H.
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 12:14 PM, J A Holland <acts238bishop@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken;
>
> Enjoyed reading these interesting and informative posts.
>
> When you guys get all of the fuel line issues corrected
> and prefab an extra set just let me know ~
> We will bring the 'ole'gospel ship' your way so that you
> can show me how easily they can be installed ~
...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #128030 is a reply to message #128026] |
Mon, 30 May 2011 20:39 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
You sound like a Retired Officer that might be running for an office.
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> We'll probably reach a consensus on this right after those on tires
> and brake arrangements. :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 12:14 PM, J A Holland <acts238bishop@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ken;
>>
>> Enjoyed reading these interesting and informative posts.
>>
>> When you guys get all of the fuel line issues corrected
>> and prefab an extra set just let me know ~
>> We will bring the 'ole'gospel ship' your way so that you
>> can show me how easily they can be installed ~
> ...
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Fuel Lines [message #128032 is a reply to message #128030] |
Mon, 30 May 2011 22:04 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Just you wait -- I'll get you back for that slur!
Ken H.
On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken,
> You sound like a Retired Officer that might be running for an office.
>
>
> On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> We'll probably reach a consensus on this right after those on tires
>> and brake arrangements. :-)
>>
>> Ken H.
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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