Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » It's official (omg I have a GMC to disect)
| It's official [message #123858] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 19:08  |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Well, today was a fine day of adventure as (take this down David) TZE064V1000890 which is that super rough looking 74 Canyon Land out of Maryland is now a Canadian.
First thanks go to this forum and sister websites for the incredible knowledge and information which sparked my interest. I'm 'a man with a plan' so odds are I may tick off some purists with my intended project, but I bet some will find it amusing to say the least.
I bought this one without more than many calls and emails to the seller (Thanks Bud!) who was 110% accurate with the faults and flaws and the good points of the coach. I wanted something which was solid, inexpensive, but rough enough to not feel guilt for *ahem* personalizing. I did receive a fine first hand report of it’s condition from a member here (Thanks Tim!) after the fact, which confirmed all which I had been told by the seller.
Transport on the US side was handled by:
WILLIAM (Bill) M HAZZARD
W M HAZZARD CARTAGE
577 A STREET
King Of Prussia, PA 19406
Phone: 610-322-8309
enginebill[ AT ]comcast.net
Thanks Bill! The price was fantastic and the service…fantastic too. It was the deciding factor as to whether or not this buy made any sense at all. I've asked Bill to let me know his range of coverage (not in to Canada sadly), but he now has GMC experience so depending how far he travels, I could only say good things if you happen to fall within his circle.
The Canadian side was handled by UniPro (Dorval, Quebec) with a Landoll due to height restrictions (and our deplorable highways) - 5 stars again and we had a riot and a really enjoyable day. The driver I was with (Serge) mentioned he's gone as far as Virginia to pick up SOBs and he said they go pretty much anywhere. Pricing is umm… painful, but that comes with the fact it's a biggggg shiny rig, yet able to float over roads unfit for most vehicles today. Professionalism does have a price, so it was worth it without a question.
David Greenberg - I forgot to get you another TZE but where we parked to join the two trailers (which by the way, were within an inch of each other in height - simple roll from one to another) in Champlain, NY, a most lively fellow came running out to look, then "come see, come see" and he had a sparking Eleganza with a pretty spiffy interior, parked just behind a building. Quebec, Canada registration but he said he was from Atlantic City or thereabouts. He's supposed to contact me and I'll get his coordinates to you to verify your registry records.
Then to top that off, a fellow GMCer from right here (I'm so sorry, I've already forgotten your name - one of those days), but from Montreal and with a Transmode, taps me on the shoulder to say hi as we wait in the line for customs registration. Awesome – with one of these “oddities”, it’s such a small world.
So that's about it for now - "Scruffy" or I'm seriously considering "Titanic" has a thousand feet to go before it's next to my garage (no way to get a Landoll in here so my neighbour's farm is warehousing it for the night), and after that the fun shall begin.
Start your wants and wishes lists at any point as most of the pretty darn nice Canyon Land interior is going to go, along with the "starts and runs and shifts gears" 455 Olds and the TH425 transmission.
Gord 
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 Re: It's official [message #123865 is a reply to message #123860] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 20:12  |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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Thanks Mike and good luck with yours too!
Well, it's a complete teardown that's for sure. I won't galvanize but sure will sandblast and paint and a few structural changes to improve the torsional rigidity.
The 455/TH425 will be replaced - sorry, there's just no way I can justify anything sucking back my hard earned taxed and taxed again dollar at the rate that thing does. I have to wait a little but you know from previous threads I'm looking at some alternate engines with more modern technology - that's a bit of a non-issue at this point because I want to get the weight *substantially* reduced and once that work is done, I can make a better call on the powerplant required. It will definitely be a manual transmission.
I don't want to spoil all the fun but here's a hint to the main part of the plan: I'm 5'7" on a good day, and "scruffy" (if things go as planned), will (should) just fit inside my *regular* garage door (7'3") - don't count AC and junk on the roof. If it could fit through the door now, my garage could take the current 26' length with a foot on each end. Let's say by the time I'm finished, I should have about 7,8,maybe 9 feet. (It'll be soooo cute - and so much lighter). Get out them structural drawings!
Tip of the proverbial iceberg - let's not forget... dreaming is free and this is (or may be)... the "Titanic".
Gord
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| Re: It's official [message #123869 is a reply to message #123865] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 20:25 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| gordh1 wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 18:12 |
... The 455/TH425 will be replaced...
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A shorty 26'... interesting. More changes than I would want to tackle!
I would really like to see what you replace the TH425 with... There doesn't seem to be anything that will handle the power and fit without changing the floor... I would NOT want to do that. I am not sure about a manual.
Phase I will include a fuel system compatible with most "known" fuels... with metal lines from the tanks to the front.
Phase II of my plan, 10 years out or so, is going to a smaller v8. Turbo charged to maintain the needed power, but more likely to be able to handle the fuels that will be in use in the year 2040. (The "Plan" is to still be driving it then.) A replacement to the TH425 would be nice for phase II.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: It's official [message #123883 is a reply to message #123858] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 21:45 |
bernie
Messages: 46
Registered: February 2008
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Hello Gord!!
It's Bernard from Montreal. What a coincidence to meet you at the Canada Customs this afternoon !!!! I am very happy to learn that you made it home with your new GMC ! It is the beginning of a great adventure ! Like I told you this afternoon, you can make
miracles with these motorhomes and while you were waiting in line
to pay the taxes(...), I had a chance to take a walk around your
GMC and from what I could see, it seems a great restorable coach
with solid foundation ! I think you made a good buy ! We'll keep in touch !
Congratulations again!!
Bernard
GMC Transmode 1977
Montreal,Canada
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| Re: It's official [message #123887 is a reply to message #123865] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 22:03 |
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Hardie Johnson
Messages: 483
Registered: January 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
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Weight reduction? Money no object? I have a piece of flooring 3' by 4' which will meet both objectives, aluminum honey comb. The 1" or thicker plywood floor is a major weight reduction opportunity. Plus reducing the thickness to 1/2" is a great design feature.
There are similar materials available for interior structures. You could lose a tonne! Well, a couple hundred anyway.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#aluminum-honeycomb-panels/=c3eedf is an example. If you actually try to do this go to the manufacturers, not MCM, of course. There is also a foam core panel, originally from BFGoodrich, called rigicell which would be perfect. Hexcel is the company to start with. I have used aluminum skinned plastic panels from 80/20 with great success. I have though airplane surplus flooring would be useful, but Davis Mothan is a long way from Raleigh. There are many other modern panels.
Weight reduction by dumping the 455 cid Olds, I dunno. Unless you go to a very light aluminum GM block the changes are minimal. Going 403 instead of 455 seems to result in minimal performance hit, but minimal economy improvement, and no weight change. Keep the 455 for the sound.
Aluminum wheels and 16" tires, fer sher, but no one seems to have really pushed that envelope. How light can a load range D tire be and what is the minimal wheel for that capacity? Dump the spare, save 75#?
Glass is very heavy. Do You really need all those windows? Does the back window need to be glass ? Can you install an acrylic replacement?
The aerodynamics are better that the contemporary Corvette (Cd, anyway) but still, eliminating parasitic drag is important. I bet a total under skin (Ferrari F40) would do remarkable things, plus protect the radiator and fuel tanks from heat, armadillos, etc.,
That, and a coat of Meguiar’s finest carnuba should get the desired results.
Hardie Johnson "Crashj"
1973 26 foot Glacier, White Thing
Raleigh NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] It's official [message #123888 is a reply to message #123887] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 22:07 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Wait, do GMCs really have a better aerodynamic drag Cd coeffecienint
than Corvettes??? Two things come to mind. 1: Awesome! 2: How???
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Hardie Johnson <hardie.j@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> The aerodynamics are better that the contemporary Corvette (Cd, anyway) but still, eliminating parasitic drag is important. I bet a total under skin (Ferrari F40) would do remarkable things, plus protect the radiator and fuel tanks from heat, armadillos, etc.,
> That, and a coat of Meguiar’s finest carnuba should get the desired results.
> --
> Hardie Johnson "Crashj"
> 1973 26 foot Glacier, White Thing
> Raleigh NC
--
.sig for automotive mailing lists
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2003 Buick Lesabre
1968 Pontiac Catalina
Possible 1977 Palm Beach?
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| Re: It's official [message #123895 is a reply to message #123886] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 22:44 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
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| gmchunter wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 22:57 |
With that philosophy how can you justify the cost of the "newer replacement" technology and the time (is money) and cost of implementing it?
Michael
who wants to know?
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Hi Michael,
Well, it's pretty simple as fuel is over $5 a gallon here with not even a glimmer of decline.
Here's some quick math and don't forget - I work at the standard rate for hobbies at about $0.10 an hour (maybe less). I can have a fine <take your pick> *complete* wrecked FWD vehicle with equal or better horsepower and torque than a fresh 455 can produce, for about $3k. With the lighter idea, (this is how they're allllll doing it today), I'll improve the fuel economy by 50% or more.
Take that $3k and pour it though the 455 and it's gone and it's never coming back now is it. Let's go further - distance wise now. Pick a number, realistically say, Montreal to Los Angeles each winter for a few years and that's a lot of miles and a lot of fuel, so the payback should be no, not days or months, but probably a few years of use. Remember too - fuel isn't declining and I'll put money we'll be back here quite shortly discussing the 7 dollar gallon...or worse.
Last point - while I'm not a 'tree hugger', I have tremendous respect for the environment and the environment I'll leave to the next generation (and I don't even have children). I would have a difficult time sleeping at night knowing that I had not made some effort to 'improve', especially by means which I am familiar. I take it as part of the objective of this project and very much a necessity. I guess I could go back to school and learn all about electric cars or hydrogen cells - well, I won't last that long and I don't think I have the smarts for things like that right now.
Pretty simple though - I'm not trying to make 'an original classic', so it is 'carte blanche' to try some new things and see if I can make 'em go, and the math and my conscious says I at least have to try.
Gord
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| Re: It's official [message #123899 is a reply to message #123887] |
Fri, 29 April 2011 23:32 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Hardie Johnson wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 23:03 |
Weight reduction? <snip>
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Hi Hardie,
Yes sir - right on the money and you keyed in to something I learned long ago about aerodynamics: do not neglect the undercarriage and heaps of those 'things' that are hanging off the sides, top and such which could with a bit of effort be flush mounted or...removed! 
Aluminum or composite honeycomb would be incredible and being close to some pretty serious aircraft fab and repair centers 'up here', not completely out of the question. Brings to mind a friend of mine who a few years back used to go 'dumpster diving' at a few of those places and was toting home unbelievable treasures that didn't quite make the cut to pass for flight.
I guess we'll agree to disagree regarding a 455 or a 403 - imho they are well past their prime and a pushrod 2 valve engine relying on displacement to do anything, just isn't in the same league as today's offerings. Please don't get me wrong - GM has created some wonderful things (some disasters too - who hasn't), but in the engine department, they typically lack the (perhaps funds? perhaps smarts?) to compete with some European or Asian advancements.
Transmissions - automatic or manual, 3 speeds can't do it. Well they can, they're just terribly inefficient. Hence the advancement to these multispeeds or even auto/manual "tiptronic" (a Porsche trade name) types - which I wouldn't write off, but I'd need to study a whole lot more to understand if they might be suitable. Interesting read here perhaps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manumatic
Oh, the rear glass is a gonner for sure (anyone? anyone?) and wheels... I disagree with the majority of going to 16 inch as I am certain 17 or larger are available that would permit a much wider selection of tires and loads of brake clearance.
So much to do...
Thanks Hardie,
Gord
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| Re: It's official [message #123913 is a reply to message #123911] |
Sat, 30 April 2011 08:39 |
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gordh1
Messages: 332
Registered: February 2011
Karma: 0
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| Quote: |
and now if it will only fit on the frame/front end/etc...
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Hi CB,
There's not too much out there today that isn't a more compact engine and transmission package that I've seen. They (all auto manufacturers) have been downsizing cars and with the aid of computers (as we all know), packing incredible things in to tight spaces. Not so good for the mechanic in regards to ease of accessiblilty, but they countered that with engines that don't need more than oil and filters before 100k miles. If anything I actually expect to have too much space!
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17" means new wheel wells and separating the back 'axles' from each other more, which then means new engineering for mounting to the frame/etc...
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Umm, not really. It only means lower profile tires, readily available. That said I would really like to toss the bogie arrangement for 4 trailing arms instead (a couple of new pivots, swap RRR for LFR arms). I'll give up some interior space for the benefits I believe this would provide. By the weight target I have, I could go with only 2 wheels on the rear although as we all know, one of the most identifying characteristics of a GMC Motorhome is the nifty tandem rear wheels - I've surveyed some people and they all say "na - you *have* to keep those!!"
| Quote: |
Some have put in newer technology engines/etc in a GMC, but all have been compatibile with the GMC. (similiar mpg/etc.)
If you go smaller, it will have to work much harder to do the same as the 403/455 do and were engineered to do with their torque.
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In this case I say look at the weight and the fact the only thing I intend to be compatible with is the front hubs - maybe not even those. A completely fresh drivetrain and electrics and electronics that come with it. For the latter there's little to do (eventually) beyond hooking up a battery. 200 hp / 200 ft-lbs of torque is what it is. I don't care if an engine revs higher at a similar given speed and with multispeed gearboxes versus 3 steep steps, it can only be more effective and efficient.
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I dont mean to 'dash' your hopes, but being an application developer, we learned to do things very logical. It either is or it ain't, will or it won't; no 'might be able to'.
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No worries - I sincerely appreciate your comments, concerns and thoughts, thank you. It really adds to the fun of the whole idea. I'm sadly somewhat qualified with mechanical design, years of practical experience and then on to computer software and hardware architecture...and the sadly part because all I feel I really wanted to do in life was be a farmer.
Many thanks CB!
Gord
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| Re: It's official [message #123998 is a reply to message #123997] |
Sat, 30 April 2011 20:07 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Gord
We need pictures!!!
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: It's official [message #124005 is a reply to message #123865] |
Sat, 30 April 2011 20:35 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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| gordh1 wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 20:12 |
Thanks Mike and good luck with yours too!
Well, it's a complete teardown that's for sure. I won't galvanize but sure will sandblast and paint and a few structural changes to improve the torsional rigidity.
The 455/TH425 will be replaced - sorry, there's just no way I can justify anything sucking back my hard earned taxed and taxed again dollar at the rate that thing does. I have to wait a little but you know from previous threads I'm looking at some alternate engines with more modern technology - that's a bit of a non-issue at this point because I want to get the weight *substantially* reduced and once that work is done, I can make a better call on the powerplant required. It will definitely be a manual transmission.
I don't want to spoil all the fun but here's a hint to the main part of the plan: I'm 5'7" on a good day, and "scruffy" (if things go as planned), will (should) just fit inside my *regular* garage door (7'3") - don't count AC and junk on the roof. If it could fit through the door now, my garage could take the current 26' length with a foot on each end. Let's say by the time I'm finished, I should have about 7,8,maybe 9 feet. (It'll be soooo cute - and so much lighter). Get out them structural drawings!
Tip of the proverbial iceberg - let's not forget... dreaming is free and this is (or may be)... the "Titanic".
Gord
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Gord,
It will be interesting to see your project develop -- hopefully you will share photos along the way.
From your early comments -- it sounds like you could draw inspiration from the Ultra Van, the Vixen and Jim Bounds "Bobtail" (a 23 foot coach shortened to 21). There has been at least one 23 ft coach that has been modified to use only one set of rear wheels -- but I have not seen pictures of the actual suspension.
Keep us posted.
Oh, rare interior bits someone will want -- the fixed window latch for all but the driver and passenger windows. (the portion that attaches to the wall not onto the window.) Exterior the drip rail ends, the chrome and the black ends of the trim rails.
Nice of you to offer up the extras as you do your demolition.
Regards,
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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