Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » New lower ball joint wont fit!
| New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122034] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 13:50  |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they both don't fit.
I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears are a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on the diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the A arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try to install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
Anybody ran into this problem?
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122037 is a reply to message #122034] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 14:22  |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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| GMCNUSA wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 14:50 |
I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they both don't fit.
I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears are a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on the diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the A arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try to install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
Anybody ran into this problem?
|
Sir: the only time I ran into this the end of the arm had been rolled in by a PO trying to break it loose with a fork. I had to ball pien and anvil it back into shape.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122038 is a reply to message #122034] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 14:15 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Larry, Steve Ferguson published a Tech Article on front suspension
rebuilding and it is available on the GMCWS website under tech articles
"Getting your frontend under control". Lots of good pictures & expert
advise. For the best installation of ball joints in GMC front ends, the part
of the joint that projects through the large hole in the lower control arm
should be centered in the hole. Get as many of the 5/16" bolts through and
tightened as you can. When this is accomplished, remove the 5/16" bolts &
nuts one at a time and replace them with grade 5 or better 3/8" fasteners
after first drilling the hole absolutely no larger than that which will
allow the 3/8" bolts to go through the assembly. You do not want any
loosness or play in this assembly. The pictures help one understand this
better than I can explain it. Any movement will result in parts failures. If
your lower control arms are not reinforced, do so before you put them back
under the coach. The 77 & 78 control arms have factory reinforcements, the
earlier coaches do not. I am not sure when the factory started fixing them
but the very early coaches as well as stock toronado or elodrado lower
control arms need to be beefed up. Hope this helps answer your questions.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com>wrote:
>
>
> I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
> joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other
> hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not
> original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they
> both don't fit.
> I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears
> are a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on
> the diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the
> A arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try
> to install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
> Anybody ran into this problem?
> --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122041 is a reply to message #122037] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 14:35 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| C Boyd wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 15:22 |
| GMCNUSA wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 14:50 |
I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they both don't fit.
I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears are a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on the diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the A arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try to install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
Anybody ran into this problem?
|
Sir: the only time I ran into this the end of the arm had been rolled in by a PO trying to break it loose with a fork. I had to ball pien and anvil it back into shape.
|
Chuck the problem is the end looks very normal and not damaged. I have only one A arm off of coach at this time so I cannot compare them. Thanks for info.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122043 is a reply to message #122038] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 14:40 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 15:15 |
Larry, Steve Ferguson published a Tech Article on front suspension
rebuilding and it is available on the GMCWS website under tech articles
"Getting your frontend under control". Lots of good pictures & expert
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com>wrote:
>
>
> I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
> joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other
> > --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
> _______________________________________________
>
|
Thanks for the info Jim I have studyed and talked to Steve F about this project and I am reinforcing all points as Steve points out. I have not called him about this problem yet but I may have to bother him again.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122062 is a reply to message #122034] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 18:37 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
I would suggest you take a picture of the area without the ball joint
installed and with it installed so we can see what's going on.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry and Cheryl Dilk
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 1:51 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit!
I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other
hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not
original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they
both don't fit.
I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears are
a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on the
diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the A
arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try to
install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
Anybody ran into this problem?
--
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122079 is a reply to message #122062] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 21:27 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 19:37 |
Larry,
I would suggest you take a picture of the area without the ball joint
installed and with it installed so we can see what's going on.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry and Cheryl Dilk
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 1:51 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit!
I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other
hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not
original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they
both don't fit.
I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears are
a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on the
diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the A
arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try to
install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
Anybody ran into this problem?
--
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Thanks for the interest but with severe use of the ball peen hammer some precision grinding on the ball joint casting the 2 5/16 bolts passed thru the A arm holes and with patient wiggling they both finnaly fit thru ball joint ears.
I still don't know why the new ball joint didn't fit.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122083 is a reply to message #122079] |
Sat, 16 April 2011 21:59 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
When you go thru with the "convincing" did you make sure both tangs of the
ball joint were in full contact with the surface of the lower control arm?
Also it would be a good idea to follow Steve Ferguson's recommendation of
replacing the 5/16" bolts with 3/8" bolts and use RED Locktite on them when
you install them.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry and Cheryl Dilk
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 9:27 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit!
Thanks for the interest but with severe use of the ball peen hammer some
precision grinding on the ball joint casting the 2 5/16 bolts passed thru
the A arm holes and with patient wiggling they both finnaly fit thru ball
joint ears.
I still don't know why the new ball joint didn't fit.
--
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122098 is a reply to message #122043] |
Sun, 17 April 2011 08:30 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
Of the dozens I have refurbed, seldom have I found one where the
replacement ball joint mounting holes will line up. The arms take quite a
beating and tend to load up from external stress. Knock those rivits out
and the tip seems to relax to the point where the orig holes will no longer
line up with the replacement ball joint. Don't let this worry you.
Insert the new ball joint, install the replacement 5/16 mounting bolts in
whichever hole lines up the best, tighten the top locater nut to 30 ft lbs,
now tighten the 5/16 side bolt to 30 ft lbs. Drill the opposite side out to
3/8. (An easy task with a helper.) Install a G8, 3/24 X 1-1/4 bolt and
tighten to 30 ft lbs. Coat the threads with a good threadlock compound
first. Now remove the 5/16 fastener from the other side and repeat.
Tighten both side bolts to 60 - 65 ft lbs. Watch the tip of the control
arm as you do this and you will see it literally shape itself to the contour
of the forged ball joint.
I do not think the 5/16 replacement hardware is up to the task when used in
the GMC application. The bolts will snap at 35 ft lbs of torque. That
lower control arm takes a substantial beating in the GMC application and I
would never consider using the supplied hardware when installing a new ball
joint. Many of the repairs I make are on control arms where the 5/16
hardware has stretched, loosened up, or broken and the ball joint has been
allowed to wallow around in the tip of the control arm to the point where
many fractures begin. I have many photos of what this looks like on the
GMCWS web site under "Tech".
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com>wrote:
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Sat, 16 April 2011 15:15
> > Larry, Steve Ferguson published a Tech Article on front suspension
> > rebuilding and it is available on the GMCWS website under tech articles
> > "Getting your frontend under control". Lots of good pictures & expert
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, OR
> > 78 GMC Royale 403
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
> > > joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the
> other
> > > > --
> > > Larry Dilk
> > > Indianapolis, IN
> > > 76 Eleganza II
> > > Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> > > Just LOVE It!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
>
> Thanks for the info Jim I have studyed and talked to Steve F about this
> project and I am reinforcing all points as Steve points out. I have not
> called him about this problem yet but I may have to bother him again.
> --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122103 is a reply to message #122062] |
Sun, 17 April 2011 10:26 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I'll have our guys compare the old one against the new one off the
shelve and see if there are any difference.
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Larry,
>
> I would suggest you take a picture of the area without the ball joint
> installed and with it installed so we can see what's going on.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry and Cheryl Dilk
> Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 1:51 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit!
>
> I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
> joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the other
> hole is about 1/16" out of alignment. The old ball joint which was not
> original fits very easily. I have 2 new Moog ball joints from Jim K and they
> both don't fit.
> Â I have deburred all holes and the new ball joint casting which the ears are
> a part of is a bigger diameter then old ball joint by about 3/32nd on the
> diameter of the casting. The new one is against the turned up lip of the A
> arm and the stud seems to be all the way against the hole edge when I try to
> install 2nd 5/16 bolt thru A Arm and ear of ball Joint.
> Â Anybody ran into this problem?
> --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122107 is a reply to message #122098] |
Sun, 17 April 2011 11:30 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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|
| Steven Ferguson wrote on Sun, 17 April 2011 09:30 |
Larry,
Of the dozens I have refurbed, seldom have I found one where the
replacement ball joint mounting holes will line up. The arms take quite a
beating and tend to load up from external stress. Knock those rivits out
and the tip seems to relax to the point where the orig holes will no longer
line up with the replacement ball joint. Don't let this worry you.
Insert the new ball joint, install the replacement 5/16 mounting bolts in
whichever hole lines up the best, tighten the top locater nut to 30 ft lbs,
now tighten the 5/16 side bolt to 30 ft lbs. Drill the opposite side out to
3/8. (An easy task with a helper.) Install a G8, 3/24 X 1-1/4 bolt and
tighten to 30 ft lbs. Coat the threads with a good threadlock compound
first. Now remove the 5/16 fastener from the other side and repeat.
Tighten both side bolts to 60 - 65 ft lbs. Watch the tip of the control
arm as you do this and you will see it literally shape itself to the contour
of the forged ball joint.
I do not think the 5/16 replacement hardware is up to the task when used in
the GMC application. The bolts will snap at 35 ft lbs of torque. That
lower control arm takes a substantial beating in the GMC application and I
would never consider using the supplied hardware when installing a new ball
joint. Many of the repairs I make are on control arms where the 5/16
hardware has stretched, loosened up, or broken and the ball joint has been
allowed to wallow around in the tip of the control arm to the point where
many fractures begin. I have many photos of what this looks like on the
GMCWS web site under "Tech".
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com>wrote:
> > > I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog ball
> > > joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but the
> other
> > > > --
> > > Larry Dilk
> > > Indianapolis, IN
> > > 76 Eleganza II
> > > Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> > > Just LOVE It!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
>
> Thanks for the info Jim I have studyed and talked to Steve F about this
> project and I am reinforcing all points as Steve points out. I have not
> called him about this problem yet but I may have to bother him again.
> --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
> _______________________________________________
>>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
_______________________________________________
|
Thank you Steve F and Jim K
I was surprised by how little movement of the lip at the end of the arm allowed the second hole to line up. At first I was reluctant to beat on the lip but finally a little pounding and the second hole lined up. The "damage" to the A-arm was not visable to the eye but that was the cause of new ball joint not fitting. Steve thanks for the info that this is not unusual and I am putting 3/8 fine thread grade 8 bolts and thread locker.
Now to get those upper bushings out of the arms. I am not replacing the upper ball joints they are very tight as tight as new ones and the riveted factory install seems very reliable. Or is this a BAD idea?
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122125 is a reply to message #122107] |
Sun, 17 April 2011 13:40 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bushings should be replaced as they will be sagged from 30+ years of
loading. If the upper ball joint is intact and greased regularly, they
seldom wear out. Check for any slop in the position that the ball joint
takes when the wheels are pointed straight ahead as that is where they spend
the majority of their life. Steve can tell you about the tie rod ends. Just
the tiniest slop in the "straightahead" position equates to slop in the
steering wheel and rut wander as well as suceptibility to cross wind and
truck steer. All that stuff under there is the same age, and the rubber
parts are all subject to deterioration at the same rate. Check the crap out
of it all, and use the cooking rule.If in doubt, throw it out. JWIWD.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com>wrote:
>
>
> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sun, 17 April 2011 09:30
> > Larry,
> > Of the dozens I have refurbed, seldom have I found one where the
> > replacement ball joint mounting holes will line up. The arms take quite
> a
> > beating and tend to load up from external stress. Knock those rivits out
> > and the tip seems to relax to the point where the orig holes will no
> longer
> > line up with the replacement ball joint. Don't let this worry you.
> > Insert the new ball joint, install the replacement 5/16 mounting bolts
> in
> > whichever hole lines up the best, tighten the top locater nut to 30 ft
> lbs,
> > now tighten the 5/16 side bolt to 30 ft lbs. Drill the opposite side out
> to
> > 3/8. (An easy task with a helper.) Install a G8, 3/24 X 1-1/4 bolt and
> > tighten to 30 ft lbs. Coat the threads with a good threadlock compound
> > first. Now remove the 5/16 fastener from the other side and repeat.
> > Tighten both side bolts to 60 - 65 ft lbs. Watch the tip of the control
> > arm as you do this and you will see it literally shape itself to the
> contour
> > of the forged ball joint.
> > I do not think the 5/16 replacement hardware is up to the task when used
> in
> > the GMC application. The bolts will snap at 35 ft lbs of torque. That
> > lower control arm takes a substantial beating in the GMC application and
> I
> > would never consider using the supplied hardware when installing a new
> ball
> > joint. Many of the repairs I make are on control arms where the 5/16
> > hardware has stretched, loosened up, or broken and the ball joint has
> been
> > allowed to wallow around in the tip of the control arm to the point where
> > many fractures begin. I have many photos of what this looks like on the
> > GMCWS web site under "Tech".
> > On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > > > I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog
> ball
> > > > > joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but
> the
> > > other
> > > > > > --
> > > > > Larry Dilk
> > > > > Indianapolis, IN
> > > > > 76 Eleganza II
> > > > > Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> > > > > Just LOVE It!
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for the info Jim I have studyed and talked to Steve F about this
> > > project and I am reinforcing all points as Steve points out. I have not
> > > called him about this problem yet but I may have to bother him again.
> > > --
> > > Larry Dilk
> > > Indianapolis, IN
> > > 76 Eleganza II
> > > Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> > > Just LOVE It!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
> > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you Steve F and Jim K
> I was surprised by how little movement of the lip at the end of the arm
> allowed the second hole to line up. At first I was reluctant to beat on the
> lip but finally a little pounding and the second hole lined up. The "damage"
> to the A-arm was not visable to the eye but that was the cause of new ball
> joint not fitting. Steve thanks for the info that this is not unusual and I
> am putting 3/8 fine thread grade 8 bolts and thread locker.
> Now to get those upper bushings out of the arms. I am not replacing the
> upper ball joints they are very tight as tight as new ones and the riveted
> factory install seems very reliable. Or is this a BAD idea?
> --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #122227 is a reply to message #122125] |
Mon, 18 April 2011 12:05 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim H. and Steve are giving you not only good, the right advice but also
bringing up the fact of not wearing blinders and only consider the 1 part you
feel is the culprit is really the best advice. These machines are old, you
cannot diagnose these things like you do your late model Toyota or Ford. Maybe
1 part IS bad but the rest of the parts are somewhere far along thier useful
cycle and if the goal is to have to coach give you miles of troub le free
reliability, the right thing to do is replace more than just what you see as
bad. This is the time when "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" may be
the correct line of thought. I cannot tell you how many times we have replaced
an obvious part only to find a week or 2 down the road something else related to
the replaced part also fails causing the customer to wonder if that was not the
problem all along! The part that was replaced was certainly bad but the part it
was connected to also was damaged and just as in the case of fixing a plumbing
leak-- the weakest part will be the next 1 to go, after repairing the obvious
problem, you should also consider other nearby pieces/ parts.
The advice on installing those lower ball joints while sounding kinda odd is the
real deal taking into account decades of rough use and damage due to holding up
a really heavy vehicle. Sttel fatigue is not unusual on A arms, Steve would be
the one to tell you about that.
Just whatever you do, don;t think that because you replaced just your lower ball
joints that you should automatically have a better ride-- there may be many
other factors. Good luck, take your time and take off the blinders!
Jim Bounds
---------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sun, April 17, 2011 2:40:45 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit!
Bushings should be replaced as they will be sagged from 30+ years of
loading. If the upper ball joint is intact and greased regularly, they
seldom wear out. Check for any slop in the position that the ball joint
takes when the wheels are pointed straight ahead as that is where they spend
the majority of their life. Steve can tell you about the tie rod ends. Just
the tiniest slop in the "straightahead" position equates to slop in the
steering wheel and rut wander as well as suceptibility to cross wind and
truck steer. All that stuff under there is the same age, and the rubber
parts are all subject to deterioration at the same rate. Check the crap out
of it all, and use the cooking rule.If in doubt, throw it out. JWIWD.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com>wrote:
>
>
> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sun, 17 April 2011 09:30
> > Larry,
> > Of the dozens I have refurbed, seldom have I found one where the
> > replacement ball joint mounting holes will line up. The arms take quite
> a
> > beating and tend to load up from external stress. Knock those rivits out
> > and the tip seems to relax to the point where the orig holes will no
> longer
> > line up with the replacement ball joint. Don't let this worry you.
> > Insert the new ball joint, install the replacement 5/16 mounting bolts
> in
> > whichever hole lines up the best, tighten the top locater nut to 30 ft
> lbs,
> > now tighten the 5/16 side bolt to 30 ft lbs. Drill the opposite side out
> to
> > 3/8. (An easy task with a helper.) Install a G8, 3/24 X 1-1/4 bolt and
> > tighten to 30 ft lbs. Coat the threads with a good threadlock compound
> > first. Now remove the 5/16 fastener from the other side and repeat.
> > Tighten both side bolts to 60 - 65 ft lbs. Watch the tip of the control
> > arm as you do this and you will see it literally shape itself to the
> contour
> > of the forged ball joint.
> > I do not think the 5/16 replacement hardware is up to the task when used
> in
> > the GMC application. The bolts will snap at 35 ft lbs of torque. That
> > lower control arm takes a substantial beating in the GMC application and
> I
> > would never consider using the supplied hardware when installing a new
> ball
> > joint. Many of the repairs I make are on control arms where the 5/16
> > hardware has stretched, loosened up, or broken and the ball joint has
> been
> > allowed to wallow around in the tip of the control arm to the point where
> > many fractures begin. I have many photos of what this looks like on the
> > GMCWS web site under "Tech".
> > On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Larry and Cheryl Dilk <lwd222@msn.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > > > I am replacing the lower ball joints on 76 coach and the new Moog
> ball
> > > > > joints will not fit. I can get one of the 5/16" bolts to go in but
> the
> > > other
> > > > > > --
> > > > > Larry Dilk
> > > > > Indianapolis, IN
> > > > > 76 Eleganza II
> > > > > Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> > > > > Just LOVE It!
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for the info Jim I have studyed and talked to Steve F about this
> > > project and I am reinforcing all points as Steve points out. I have not
> > > called him about this problem yet but I may have to bother him again.
> > > --
> > > Larry Dilk
> > > Indianapolis, IN
> > > 76 Eleganza II
> > > Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> > > Just LOVE It!
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
> > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you Steve F and Jim K
> I was surprised by how little movement of the lip at the end of the arm
> allowed the second hole to line up. At first I was reluctant to beat on the
> lip but finally a little pounding and the second hole lined up. The "damage"
> to the A-arm was not visable to the eye but that was the cause of new ball
> joint not fitting. Steve thanks for the info that this is not unusual and I
> am putting 3/8 fine thread grade 8 bolts and thread locker.
> Now to get those upper bushings out of the arms. I am not replacing the
> upper ball joints they are very tight as tight as new ones and the riveted
> factory install seems very reliable. Or is this a BAD idea?
> --
> Larry Dilk
> Indianapolis, IN
> 76 Eleganza II
> Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
> Just LOVE It!
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #123258 is a reply to message #122098] |
Tue, 26 April 2011 08:52 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Apr 17, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
> Insert the new ball joint, install the replacement 5/16 mounting
> bolts in
> whichever hole lines up the best, tighten the top locater nut to 30
> ft lbs,
> now tighten the 5/16 side bolt to 30 ft lbs. Drill the opposite
> side out to
> 3/8. (An easy task with a helper.) Install a G8, 3/24 X 1-1/4 bolt
> and
> tighten to 30 ft lbs. Coat the threads with a good threadlock
> compound
> first. Now remove the 5/16 fastener from the other side and repeat.
> Tighten both side bolts to 60 - 65 ft lbs.
Thinking aloud... If switching to 3/8NF hardware, why not just use the
same high-tensile 12 point bolts such as those that hold the inner CV
onto the drive flanges? Surely everyone has a pile of those bolts
lying about! Stick a high-strength tall nut on the back and one
should be in business.
The fastener is clearly up to the task plus there's less chance of
rounding off the heads when tightening them to however many lightyear-
megatons of torque you like.
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #123321 is a reply to message #123258] |
Tue, 26 April 2011 17:53 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim,
GREAT IDEA!
Someone needs to check the unthreaded portion of the CV joint bolt to make
sure it is not greater than the thickness of the ball joint tab, control
arm, and lock washer.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Miller
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 8:52 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit!
Thinking aloud... If switching to 3/8NF hardware, why not just use the
same high-tensile 12 point bolts such as those that hold the inner CV
onto the drive flanges? Surely everyone has a pile of those bolts
lying about! Stick a high-strength tall nut on the back and one
should be in business.
The fastener is clearly up to the task plus there's less chance of
rounding off the heads when tightening them to however many lightyear-
megatons of torque you like.
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] New lower ball joint wont fit! [message #123366 is a reply to message #123321] |
Tue, 26 April 2011 20:37 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Also check the thickness of the bolt head. It may just be because of the
proportions, but my first inclination is to think the axle bolt heads are
thicker than those of similar sized hex heads. If so, they'll probably
expand the turning radius by limiting knuckle rotation -- as I've cautioned
about before.
Ken H.
On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Jim,
>
> GREAT IDEA!
>
> Someone needs to check the unthreaded portion of the CV joint bolt to make
> sure it is not greater than the thickness of the ball joint tab, control
> arm, and lock washer.
>
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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