Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach
| [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121098] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 15:13  |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Hmmmmm. Somehow or somewhere, I got the idea that
the power in these coaches was 50 Amp, 240 Volts;
i.e., 120-0-120 about a common neutral. Now it
seems from my looking at the Onan schematic that
it may simply be a single 120V/50A circuit.
I am aware of the strange (to me) system that one
power cable plugs into shore power OR a separate
receptacle wired to the genset.
The reaason for my query is that I am going to
have a licensed electrician install a 120V/30A
single circuit at the house to power a travel
trailer AND the 50A outlet to power the GMC.
I want to be able to give him correct instructions.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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| Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121125 is a reply to message #121098] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 18:50  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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The actual service for the coach at 240 volts at 50 amps and that is what you plug into in a normal campground 50 amp service.
Nothing in the coach runs at 240 volts. The Onan runs at 120 volts only so the Onan combines both 240 volt hot leads and puts the same 120 volts on both hot legs of the 240 volt service at the same time and the other connection of course goes to neutral.
Some later coaches have 30 amp service. This is 30 amp 120 volt service. The service uses a different 3 conductor service plug.
Confused? I would be from this explanation.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121144 is a reply to message #121139] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 20:22 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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You summation matches how I understand it. Pretty much all un-modified GM upfitted coaches and SOME transmodes have this type of "50amp" cord. (MOST non-GM upfitted (transmodes) and a few modified GM coaches have a single leg 30 amp service.)
Note that when wiring a 240v line, that the loads may not be balanced. the neutral line needs to be able to return the juice from both hot legs. (In a truly balanced 240 system the neutral line carries NO current.) But most 'codes' take is into account.
| k2gkk wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 17:57 |
Ah hah! The light of knowledge begins to come on!
I knew that nothing in the coach runs on 240 but
expected that it would be wired as most houses.
Let me see if I have this straight now.
1. The coach has two separate 120 Volt circuits.
I would imagine that two air conditioners SHOULD
be on different circuits, but who knows what has
been done by prior owners or other installers.
2. The coach's power cable is set up to receive
shore power from what is actually a 240 Volt line
that is center-tapped to provide TWO 120 Volt power
circuits. The top middle blade of the cable plug
is that center-tap which is defined as the NEUTRAL.
3. The fourth blade in the connector (nearest the
actual cable) is the safety ground.
4. The 120 Volt output of the ONAN genset is fed
to BOTH of the outer connector blades of the connector
on the wall and the NEUTRAL and SAFETY GROUND are fed
to the blades that are equivalent to the shore power
connection.
__________________________________________________
If one were to replace the original ONAN with a
genset that actually had 120-0-120 Volt output,
the output connector could and should be wired
to match a shore power connection.
Does that sum it all up accurately?
----------------------------------------
> From: n9cv@comcast.net
> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 18:50:41 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach
>
> The actual service for the coach at 240 volts at 50 amps and
> that is what you plug into in a normal campground 50 amp service.
>
> Nothing in the coach runs at 240 volts. The Onan runs at 120 volts
> only so the Onan combines both 240 volt hot leads and puts the
> same 120 volts on both hot legs of the 240 volt service at the
> same time and the other connection of course goes to neutral.
>
> Some later coaches have 30 amp service. This is 30 amp 120 volt
> service. The service uses a different 3 conductor service plug.
>
> Confused? I would be from this explanation.
|
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121146 is a reply to message #121144] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 20:24 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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I mostly wanted to know how my home power outlets need
to be wired. Since I may be having my electrician hook
the circuits into the 240V breakers that would serve an
electric clothes dryer it is pretty important to know
how the coach is (SUPPOSEDLY) wired. I'm pretty sure
that the coach would not draw more than 30A per each
circuit, I may just have a double 30A breaker added to
my 200A service panel.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
----------------------------------------
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: m000035@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 20:22:39 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach
>
>
>
> You summation matches how I understand it. Pretty much all un-modified GM upfitted coaches and SOME transmodes have this type of "50amp" cord. (MOST non-GM upfitted (transmodes) and a few modified GM coaches have a single leg 30 amp service.)
>
> Note that when wiring a 240v line, that the loads may not be balanced. the neutral line needs to be able to return the juice from both hot legs. (In a truly balanced 240 system the neutral line carries NO current.) But most 'codes' take is into account.
>
> k2gkk wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 17:57
> > Ah hah! The light of knowledge begins to come on!
> >
> > I knew that nothing in the coach runs on 240 but
> > expected that it would be wired as most houses.
> >
> > Let me see if I have this straight now.
> >
> > 1. The coach has two separate 120 Volt circuits.
> > I would imagine that two air conditioners SHOULD
> > be on different circuits, but who knows what has
> > been done by prior owners or other installers.
> >
> > 2. The coach's power cable is set up to receive
> > shore power from what is actually a 240 Volt line
> > that is center-tapped to provide TWO 120 Volt power
> > circuits. The top middle blade of the cable plug
> > is that center-tap which is defined as the NEUTRAL.
> >
> > 3. The fourth blade in the connector (nearest the
> > actual cable) is the safety ground.
> >
> > 4. The 120 Volt output of the ONAN genset is fed
> > to BOTH of the outer connector blades of the connector
> > on the wall and the NEUTRAL and SAFETY GROUND are fed
> > to the blades that are equivalent to the shore power
> > connection.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> > If one were to replace the original ONAN with a
> > genset that actually had 120-0-120 Volt output,
> > the output connector could and should be wired
> > to match a shore power connection.
> >
> > Does that sum it all up accurately?
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > > From: n9cv@comcast.net
> > > Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 18:50:41 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach
> > >
> > > The actual service for the coach at 240 volts at 50 amps and
> > > that is what you plug into in a normal campground 50 amp service.
> > >
> > > Nothing in the coach runs at 240 volts. The Onan runs at 120 volts
> > > only so the Onan combines both 240 volt hot leads and puts the
> > > same 120 volts on both hot legs of the 240 volt service at the
> > > same time and the other connection of course goes to neutral.
> > >
> > > Some later coaches have 30 amp service. This is 30 amp 120 volt
> > > service. The service uses a different 3 conductor service plug.
> > >
> > > Confused? I would be from this explanation.
>
> --
> Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
> '73 26' exPainted D. -- `78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- `77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
> http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121167 is a reply to message #121139] |
Wed, 06 April 2011 23:52 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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You have is 100% correct.
Side note.
The RV places sell 50 (240 volt) to 30 amp (120 volt) and 50 amp to 20 amp adapter cables. These also work by jumping together the two hot leads as one conductor and using the neutral as the second conductor.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Upfitted [message #121168 is a reply to message #121144] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 00:04 |
bukzin
Messages: 840
Registered: April 2004
Location: North California
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=mike miller wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 18:22]You summation matches how I understand it. Pretty much all un-modified GM upfitted coaches and SOME transmodes have this type of "50amp" cord. (MOST non-GM upfitted (transmodes) and a few modified GM coaches have a single leg
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Guys, I have seen the term 'upfitted coach' used several times.
What does it mean?
Thanks
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121169 is a reply to message #121146] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 00:07 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| k2gkk wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 18:24 |
I mostly wanted to know how my home power outlets need
to be wired. Since I may be having my electrician hook
the circuits into the 240V breakers that would serve an
electric clothes dryer it is pretty important to know
how the coach is (SUPPOSEDLY) wired. I'm pretty sure
that the coach would not draw more than 30A per each
circuit, I may just have a double 30A breaker added to
my 200A service panel. ...
|
Is there any reason you do not just install a true 50 amp service? Could be useful if you have "sob" [using] friends.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Upfitted [message #121170 is a reply to message #121168] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 00:18 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| bukzin wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 22:04 |
Guys, I have seen the term 'upfitted coach' used several times.
What does it mean?
Thanks
|
"UpFitting" is installing the interior to make it a motorhome (or other use) Most GMC's where upfitted by GM and have model names of: Kingsley, Glenbrook, Edgemont, Coca Cola, Sequoia, Painted Desert Glacier, Canyon Lands, Eleganza SE, Eleganza II, and Palm Beach. Other GMC's left the factory as transmodes and where upfitted by other companies. (Sometimes not as motorhomes.) There where many upfitters, some did more than others. Coachman upfitted many 1976, 1977 and 1978's as Royale or Birchaven models.
<http://www.gmcmhregistry.com/GMC_Trivia.html>
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Upfitted [message #121172 is a reply to message #121170] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 00:30 |
bukzin
Messages: 840
Registered: April 2004
Location: North California
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Where/how does Clasco fit into this mix?
Is it true Jim B was their first employee?
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] AC Power in 76 GMC Palm Beach [message #121204 is a reply to message #121176] |
Thu, 07 April 2011 11:40 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 7:17 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> No need to put in a "true" 50A service. No room
> in the driveway for anything bigger than my 26
> and even that overhangs the sidewalk when
> backed up to the garage.
>
> If you wired it as 50 amps, 240VAC split phase (a typical 240VAC home
circuit), you could plug a welder into it if you wanted.
Also, you never know to whom you might want to sell the house someday.
But my real reason for responding is this: Be careful to instruct the
electrician to provide full-size conductors for the neutral. With 240VAC
split phase, incoming current is on one leg and the outgoing current is on
the other leg. The neutral doesn't do much unless an appliance requires
120VAC for something, such as a control circuit. Neutral legs on appliance
cords are often wired with smaller conductors for that reason. Our coaches
have current coming into the hot legs and going out the neutral, and the
neutral has to be sized to carry the full 50 amps.
I made that mistake when I wired a pigtail which I used to connect the power
panel to a separate shore-power extension. (My shore power cable is short--I
have no storage for the long cable provided in most coaches and I keep the
extension in the bumper box.) That cable was 8-8-10-10, and the #10 neutral
was undersized for the rating. I replaced it with an 8-8-8-8 appliance cord
which I had to special-order at the time that I installed my transfer
switch.
Rick "who wants to run a 240VAC circuit into the garage, too" Denney
--
'73 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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| Re: [GMCnet] Upfitted [message #121360 is a reply to message #121170] |
Fri, 08 April 2011 22:32 |
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Upfitting, the term, is applicable in more ways that taking the interior and
making a motorhome out of something. Upfitting is the practice of taking
delivery of a stock vehicle and "upfitting" it with other components not
available from the manufacturer then, in turn, selling said vehicle through
a dealer channel.
For instance, in my city (Louisville) there are several "upfitters" around
the Ford Truck Plan. For instance, for years a certain trucking company had
their tractors upfitted by one of those companies before taking delivery
and placing them in service. Another example would be a van being upfitted
for service by a handicapped individual. The practice implies that the body
and chassis were provided by the originating factory. The components were
added by the company doing the work. It isn't like taking a P30 chassis and
putting a motorhome body and components on the chassis. (By the way, the P
stands for Parcel and the 30 is the weight (size) class of the vehicle.)
By the way, this is not a dictionary term.
Byron Songer
1978 Royale by Coachmen
Louisville, KY
Personal - http://web.me.com/bnsonger
Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
Mike Miller wrote:
>
>
> bukzin wrote on Wed, 06 April 2011 22:04
>> Guys, I have seen the term 'upfitted coach' used several times.
>>
>> What does it mean?
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
> "UpFitting" is installing the interior to make it a motorhome (or other use)
> Most GMC's where upfitted by GM and have model names of: Kingsley, Glenbrook,
> Edgemont, Coca Cola, Sequoia, Painted Desert Glacier, Canyon Lands, Eleganza
> SE, Eleganza II, and Palm Beach. Other GMC's left the factory as transmodes
> and where upfitted by other companies. (Sometimes not as motorhomes.) There
> where many upfitters, some did more than others. Coachman upfitted many 1976,
> 1977 and 1978's as Royale or Birchaven models.
>
> <http://www.gmcmhregistry.com/GMC_Trivia.html>
>
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--
Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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