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| Steering box question [message #117500] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 10:32  |
lance
Messages: 190
Registered: December 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
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I will be headed out next week on a 2000 mile trip and discover that my steering box is worn beyond adjustment, at leat so it seems. I know Jim K has these in stock but can't I buy that box from a local auto parts house or GMC dealer? Does anyone have the part number so I can get it locally and swap it out this weekend?
1974 Palm Beach
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117501 is a reply to message #117500] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 10:41  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Be careful getting a run of the mill rebuilt. I sent 2 Napa units back as they were no better than my original. I sent the 3rd one to a specialty rebuilder to get it done right.
I wish I would have sent him my original right off.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
[Updated on: Fri, 04 March 2011 16:33] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117534 is a reply to message #117500] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 15:52 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| lance wrote on Fri, 04 March 2011 10:32 |
I will be headed out next week on a 2000 mile trip and discover that my steering box is worn beyond adjustment, at least so it seems. I know Jim K has these in stock but can't I buy that box from a local auto parts house or GMC dealer? Does anyone have the part number so I can get it locally and swap it out this weekend?
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What steps did you go through to determine it was worn beyond adjustment? I ask this as a great number of individuals have blamed the box and it turned out to be something else.
Here is a good document for that.
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Mueller_Steering_Inspection_Guide.pdf
For the steering box itself see the official GMC maintenance manual.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117537 is a reply to message #117501] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 16:02 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Bruce, or any one who knows,
How much, if any, rotational slack was there in your rebuilt steering box before you installed it?
My coach is finally handling much better after rebuilding/replacing all the steering and suspension components except the steering box and the steering pump.
My steering box has some slack but I've never seen a new or rebuilt box so I don't know how much tighter a replacement would be.
How much rotational freeplay should there be in the steering box or steering wheel?
Thanks for your input.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117543 is a reply to message #117534] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 16:20 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
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Steve,
Unfortunately, the "guide" doesn't give any advice as to how much slack is acceptable or desireable in any of the connections.
I don't have a maint manual here so I can't check that.
With the steering wheel unlocked but the engine not running I can turn the lower column and steering box input shaft between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. That is between 2 and 3 inches at the outside circumference of the steering wheel.
All other connections are new and tight.
That much play in the box seems excessive to me. But I don't have anything to compare to.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117546 is a reply to message #117543] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 16:39 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| gbarrow wrote on Fri, 04 March 2011 17:20 |
Steve,
Unfortunately, the "guide" doesn't give any advice as to how much slack is acceptable or desireable in any of the connections.
I don't have a maint manual here so I can't check that.
With the steering wheel unlocked but the engine not running I can turn the lower column and steering box input shaft between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. That is between 2 and 3 inches at the outside circumference of the steering wheel.
All other connections are new and tight.
That much play in the box seems excessive to me. But I don't have anything to compare to.
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Gene,
There should be NO slack in any of the frame level linkage. (Meaning pivots, rod ends and ball joints.)
The steering box has a pre-load center and should have no slack at the dead-ahead point (see the manual for more about that)
That only leaves that cardin (u-jount) on the top of the steering box that should have no detectable backlash, the CV joint at the column base - also no backlash - and the slip joint that can have a tick and no more.
If you can feel backlash at any of the joints in the system, then there is something that should be addressed.
You can buy some super re-manufactured (is there a single word for made a lot better than new?) parts from Dave Lenzi or order the correct parts the first time from JimK. He will tell you the Moog part numbers and if your local warehouse (I live 5 miles from a Napa Regional Warehouse) is like mine, it will faster and easier to get them from JimK.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question [message #117576 is a reply to message #117543] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 19:47 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Gene,
The procedure I wrote was to provide a logical step by step sequence that a
GMC owner could go through to check and record if there was any play in any
particular component and how much play there was. Once that was completed he
could analyze the information and decide what / where to start.
I did not specify any acceptable limits as there are none provided in the
MM. As far as desirable slack in each component I would say none, however,
obviously one must take into consideration whatever item you're checking.
Nothings perfect!
As far as acceptable limits of steering wheel slack goes it's up to the
person that owns the GMC. I have inspected and replaced or rebuilt every
component in the steering system as required to reduce the steering wheel
play to the absolute minimum which has made Double Trouble drive like its on
rails.
There are 63 pages in MM X-7525 Section 9 STEERING
On Page 9-2 you will find a chart entitled: STEERING LINKAGE TROUBLE
DIAGNOSIS which has three columns:
Condition:
A. Excessive Play or Looseness in Steering System
Possible Cause: This column lists a number of items that can cause that
condition. NONE of the possible causes listed have any acceptable or
desirable limits.
Correction: For each of the Possible Causes a Correction is provided.
B. Excessive looseness in tie rod or intermediate rod pivots, or excessive
vertical lash in idler support
Possible Cause: Seal damage and leakage resulting in loss of lubricant,
corrosion and excessive wear.
Correction: Replace damaged parts as required
As you can see the term "excessive" is what is used no specifics.
I agree with you if the input shaft of the steering box rotates 1/4 - 1/2
inch it would be a good idea to remove and adjust it.
To adjust the steering box you need to get a copy of MM X-7525 Pages 9-38 to
9-40 on which you will find PITMAN SHAFT "OVER CENTER" SECTOR ADJUSTMENT.
I PERSONALLY BELIEVE DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO TURN THE
ADJUSTING SCREW ON THE STEERING BOX UNLESS YOU DO IT AS PER THE MANUAL!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of gene barrow
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:20 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question
Steve,
Unfortunately, the "guide" doesn't give any advice as to how much slack is
acceptable or desireable in any of the connections.
I don't have a maint manual here so I can't check that.
With the steering wheel unlocked but the engine not running I can turn the
lower column and steering box input shaft between 1/4 and 1/2 inch. That is
between 2 and 3 inches at the outside circumference of the steering wheel.
All other connections are new and tight.
That much play in the box seems excessive to me. But I don't have anything
to compare to.
--
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117585 is a reply to message #117545] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 20:42 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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It's very unusual for one of these gears to get beyond decent adjustment, so as others have said, make sure it indeed is the gear before spending a ton of money. When checking for what seems excessive play in the gear, make sure the engine is running, since a gear without pressure from the pump, will not give you an accurate indication of play. I have adjusted my gear while installed several times, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you know these things inside out.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117591 is a reply to message #117500] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 20:54 |
lance
Messages: 190
Registered: December 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
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Thanks again to everyone. You've given me some investigating to do tomorrow and I'll let you know what I find.
1974 Palm Beach
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117594 is a reply to message #117591] |
Fri, 04 March 2011 21:29 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| lance wrote on Fri, 04 March 2011 20:54 |
Thanks again to everyone. You've given me some investigating to do tomorrow and I'll let you know what I find.
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In any event I would not return an original steering box for core credit until I was ABSOLUTELY sure the one I had installed was good, lock to lock, and that condition lasted for a few hundred miles.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117629 is a reply to message #117585] |
Sat, 05 March 2011 07:46 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Fri, 04 March 2011 21:42 |
It's very unusual for one of these gears to get beyond decent adjustment, so as others have said, make sure it indeed is the gear before spending a ton of money. When checking for what seems excessive play in the gear, make sure the engine is running, since a gear without pressure from the pump, will not give you an accurate indication of play. I have adjusted my gear while installed several times, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you know these things inside out.
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One thing you might check is the clamp on the top of the gear box. I found out several years ago that it can loosen and give play in the steering wheel. It needs to be as tight as you can make it. Any gap in the clamp will give a problem.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: Steering box question [message #117645 is a reply to message #117500] |
Sat, 05 March 2011 10:35 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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I think that unless grit or improper fluid has entered the system or more likely someone has over adjusted the box (the best way to wreck one) It can usually be adjusted. In short you should not see any lag between input and output shafts, only the gear reduction meaning less rotation on the output side but no point where input does not give immediate output, especially when on center. Now that is something to check before blaming the box is that it is on center. Over the years someone could have misadjusted the tie rod ends and "fixed the wheel on centre" in a number of places the wrong way making the box off center when the wheel is straight. The input shaft flat needs to be dead parallel to the rectangular machined gasket surface where the cover bolts on to the box when you are going straight.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question [message #117662 is a reply to message #117656] |
Sat, 05 March 2011 14:35 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
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Coorection on the part # it should be 27-7519
Fits a p series frame 76-79.
That is what our Warhouse shows.
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lance,
> Part # Cardone 27-7510
> We have a specialtyplace that does only steerin boxes.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Lance <lance@vonprum.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I will be headed out next week on a 2000 mile trip and discover that my steering box is worn beyond adjustment, at leat so it seems. I know Jim K has these in stock but can't I buy that box from a local auto parts house or GMC dealer? Does anyone have the part number so I can get it locally and swap it out this weekend?
>> --
>> 1976 Palm Beach
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question [message #117707 is a reply to message #117662] |
Sat, 05 March 2011 20:38 |
lance
Messages: 190
Registered: December 2004
Location: Vancouver, WA
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Hi Jim and thanks to all. Here is what I learned today: I checked every possible place that could be loose or worn and all evidence still points to the box. Everything before or after is tight. There is a Pro Steer dealer five miles from me so I will take the box to them Monday morning and let them either adjust or rebuild it. They promise a three day or less turn around so that will work.
One more question; I want to purchase a back-up set of V belts. Can someone give me the part numbers for stock belts?
One of you guys suggested that I install the new parts and keep the old parts for back-up. I disagree. I lost an alternator belt on my last trip. I was able to continue to drive to the nearest auto parts store and get a new belt. I installed it and went on my way. Within thee hundred miles, the alternator failed from a bad bearing. I highly suspect that when I installed the new belt, I increased the belt pressure and cauded the alternator bearing to fail. It was fine for thirty-some years but a different belt pressure upset the apple cart. I'll keep my new parts at the ready.
1974 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question [message #117718 is a reply to message #117707] |
Sun, 06 March 2011 03:43 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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The theory in installing the new ones is to make sure the new ones are good and the correct size. We know the old ones are good since you have been using them. Also the new ones are less likely to break down on the road.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question [message #117748 is a reply to message #117718] |
Sun, 06 March 2011 11:10 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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I will give you the part #, but keep in mind that if the PS pump is
set at different points, you'll think I gave you a bum #.
We run into different belt length issue frequently.
The issue of width is not a great topic to go there.
We have tried all types of width, but now almost all the manufactures
are going small to cut down on cost.
Tension is very important. New belts will loosen and you'll need to
tighten it later or overtighten at the start and avoid the adjustment.
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 1:43 AM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> The theory in installing the new ones is to make sure the new ones are good and the correct size. We know the old ones are good since you have been using them. Also the new ones are less likely to break down on the road.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering box question [message #117845 is a reply to message #117707] |
Mon, 07 March 2011 09:04 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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lance,
Please be sure to give us a report on the rebuilt box. Cost and handling improvement.
How much slack do you estimate the box has before rebuild? How much slack at the steering wheel?
My coach steering is in the same condition as yours. All components are new and tight except for the box. I'm ready to have the box rebuilt and hope that will eliminate the remaining looseness.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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