Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
| [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115100] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 14:13  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
I thought I'd break this out of Dan's engine problem and create a new thread
to discuss this to make it easy to find.
Reference: MM X-7525 Page 6A-2 ENGINE LUBRICATION SYSTEM Figure 1 - Engine
Lubrication and Figure 2 - Oil Lines to Cooler.
"Oil enters the pump through a screened inlet located near the bottom rear
of the oil pan. The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine
oil cooler located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on
the right side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter base has a
by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open at 5.3 to
6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil gallery where it is distributed to the
five main bearings."
There are subsequent paragraphs that describe the oil flow all the way back
to the oil pan.
I do not contest the fact that cleaning the lines to and from the oil cooler
in the radiator as well as the cooler itself to get any debris from a blown
engine out is MOST important, however, I can't understand how any
contamination remaining can get into the engine unless the pressure
differential across the filter by-pass reaches 5.3 to 6.3 psi.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115103 is a reply to message #115100] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 14:26  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 14:13 |
G'day,
I thought I'd break this out of Dan's engine problem and create a new thread
to discuss this to make it easy to find.
Reference: MM X-7525 Page 6A-2 ENGINE LUBRICATION SYSTEM Figure 1 - Engine
Lubrication and Figure 2 - Oil Lines to Cooler.
"Oil enters the pump through a screened inlet located near the bottom rear
of the oil pan. The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine
oil cooler located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on
the right side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter base has a
by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open at 5.3 to
6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil gallery where it is distributed to the
five main bearings."
There are subsequent paragraphs that describe the oil flow all the way back
to the oil pan.
I do not contest the fact that cleaning the lines to and from the oil cooler
in the radiator as well as the cooler itself to get any debris from a blown
engine out is MOST important, however, I can't understand how any
contamination remaining can get into the engine unless the pressure
differential across the filter by-pass reaches 5.3 to 6.3 psi.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Hey! You stole my thunder. I was typing a similar posting when you did this one.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115108 is a reply to message #115107] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 14:49 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
Good info!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:35 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
It has been my sad experience on more than one occasion to have new bearings
wiped out by material that was magnetic in nature. That usually means cast
iron residue left behind from boring or surfacing operations. A favorite
hiding place for that crud is in the oil galleries and one particular place
in oldsmobiles is the area around where the distributor gear is located.
Another place is the drilled passages for the main bearing and cam bearing
oil supplies and dont forget the oil pump pick up tube either. The filter
should trap anything downstream from there, but if the bypass valve opens,
non filtered oil goes into the galleries and from there to the bearings.
Often times the higher pressure from a new pump and tighter clearances will
flush out stuff that just laid there in the old engine. Even cast iron dust
from your coverall sleeves can do a lot of damage. Remember, if you take a
clean white rag and wipe down any surface like a cylinder bore and it comes
up dirty, it is not clean enough to assemble yet. No substitute for elbow
grease and lots of light in the assembly area. Air hoses from someone else
working in the area is another good source of contamination. Work clean and
alone if you can.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Gary Berry <duallycc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good point...
> --
> Gary and Diana Berry
> 73 CL Stretch in Wa.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115109 is a reply to message #115103] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 14:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
Great minds think alike!
Ouch, patting myself on the back seems to have strained my arm! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Burton
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:26 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
Hey! You stole my thunder. I was typing a similar posting when you did this
one.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115112 is a reply to message #115100] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 15:08 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I've pasted your message in below to get it into this thread.
I agree with you that the cause could be the oil filter not trapping the
finer particles; however, I would think that the filter element would be
designed to trap any particles large enough to cause damage.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Burton
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:14 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
Here is what I do not understand. I thought I looked this up before. I
thought that the oil flow is:
1. Oil pan
2. Engine oil pump
3. Lines to the oil cooler
4. Oil cooler
5. Line back to the oil filter adapter
6. Oil filter
7. Through the various parts of the engine
8. Back to the pan
If this flow is true then the existing oil filter ought to capture any
particles left in the oil cooler.
If the above flow is incorrect and oil goes through the oil filter BEFORE it
goes through the oil cooler, then there should not be any particles in the
cooler in the first place.
I would be more likely to blame the oil filter for not trapping the smaller
particles. Maybe we should be looking for filter that traps smaller
particles and use it after a new engine install.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115114 is a reply to message #115100] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 15:28 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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I wonder if the volume of oil flowing through the filter exceeds the filter's capacity resulting in a filter bypass? The correct Wix filter is quite small for it's micron rating. Combine that with a 15W40 or 20W50 oil and I wouldn't be surprised if the filter operates in bypass mode when engine is cold and/or at cruise RPM.
I've always selected the largest oil filter available for my vehicles. Both Ford & GM had various sizes available for their old V8s. The Olds V8 unfortunately does not have as many options.
Just speculation on my part, but something to think about.
Les Burt
Sent from my iPhone
On 2011-02-15, at 3:13 PM, "Rob Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> I thought I'd break this out of Dan's engine problem and create a new thread
> to discuss this to make it easy to find.
>
> Reference: MM X-7525 Page 6A-2 ENGINE LUBRICATION SYSTEM Figure 1 - Engine
> Lubrication and Figure 2 - Oil Lines to Cooler.
>
> "Oil enters the pump through a screened inlet located near the bottom rear
> of the oil pan. The pressurized oil from the pump passes through the engine
> oil cooler located in the radiator tank then to the oil filter located on
> the right side of the engine block, see Figure 2. The oil filter base has a
> by-pass valve which in the event of filter restriction will open at 5.3 to
> 6.3 psi. It then enters the right oil gallery where it is distributed to the
> five main bearings."
>
> There are subsequent paragraphs that describe the oil flow all the way back
> to the oil pan.
>
> I do not contest the fact that cleaning the lines to and from the oil cooler
> in the radiator as well as the cooler itself to get any debris from a blown
> engine out is MOST important, however, I can't understand how any
> contamination remaining can get into the engine unless the pressure
> differential across the filter by-pass reaches 5.3 to 6.3 psi.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115115 is a reply to message #115100] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 15:35 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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The old method of changing the oil and filter a few hundred miles after a rebuild seems like a good idea! Maybe even do this more than once if you're a suspenders and belt sort of individual!
I never really considered how much care must be taken in cleaning the block after machining operations. It certainly makes sense in light of your explanations.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115118 is a reply to message #115115] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 15:53 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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| GeorgeRud wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 15:35 |
The old method of changing the oil and filter a few hundred miles after a rebuild seems like a good idea! Maybe even do this more than once if you're a suspenders and belt sort of individual!
I never really considered how much care must be taken in cleaning the block after machining operations. It certainly makes sense in light of your explanations.
|
I've always been a fan of plugging up that bypass valve.
I'd rather see the pressure drop than get a bunch of dirty oil.
I doubt the pressure drop would be sudden, and it should be a warning to replace the filter!
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115120 is a reply to message #115114] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 15:59 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Les,
I'm a bit skeptical about a reputable oil filter company such as Wix
designing and selling oil filters that couldn't pass the flow the oil pump
put out.
If you open up a Wix oil filter and stretch out the folded filter paper you
will see the total area is rather large.
The temperature drop occurs in the oil cooler, it is the same on both sides
of the oil filter bypass therefore the viscosity on both sides of the filter
bypass would be the same.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Les Burt
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:29 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
I wonder if the volume of oil flowing through the filter exceeds the
filter's capacity resulting in a filter bypass? The correct Wix filter is
quite small for it's micron rating. Combine that with a 15W40 or 20W50 oil
and I wouldn't be surprised if the filter operates in bypass mode when
engine is cold and/or at cruise RPM.
I've always selected the largest oil filter available for my vehicles. Both
Ford & GM had various sizes available for their old V8s. The Olds V8
unfortunately does not have as many options.
Just speculation on my part, but something to think about.
Les Burt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115127 is a reply to message #115120] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 16:26 |
pickle4k
Messages: 129
Registered: January 2011
Location: San Leandro
Karma: 0
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Having built an engine or two, I can attest to the: "if it doesn't pass the white glove test it's not clean" theory. The oil passages get cleaned out with rifle brushes and ATF, with special care on dead-end bores. Just cleaning with solvent will NOT flush the debris out. We always wash the block after the drilling,decking and honing is done. There is too much to lose.
As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at high RPM and COLD conditions. Almost all filters will have some restriction after the first 1000 miles, only the high capacity ones will survive. Is there a high capacity for the Olds engine? Has anyone researched this? As to the dual filter application we can assume that it would cause no harm if you increase the amount of flow in the lines by enlarging the capacity of the lines and the connecting parts in the engine (boring out passages).
Nick R. NorCal
76-23'Transmode-Norris
Rear Bath and
75-26' Avion
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115131 is a reply to message #115127] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 16:41 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Nick,
I don't mean to be difficult but as I am going to be assembling a Cadillac
500 engine shortly I want to make sure I do everything correctly so any
specifics regarding cleaning the oil passages would be appreciated. Why ATF
and not solvent?
Also I'm wondering how to test to determine:
"As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at
high RPM and COLD conditions."
What RPM range?
What ambient temperature range?
What oil temperature range?
What oil viscosity (SAE?? - ??W)
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Nick Roenick
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:27 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
Having built an engine or two, I can attest to the: "if it doesn't pass the
white glove test it's not clean" theory. The oil passages get cleaned out
with rifle brushes and ATF, with special care on dead-end bores. Just
cleaning with solvent will NOT flush the debris out. We always wash the
block after the drilling,decking and honing is done. There is too much to
lose.
As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at
high RPM and COLD conditions. Almost all filters will have some restriction
after the first 1000 miles, only the high capacity ones will survive. Is
there a high capacity for the Olds engine? Has anyone researched this? As to
the dual filter application we can assume that it would cause no harm if you
increase the amount of flow in the lines by enlarging the capacity of the
lines and the connecting parts in the engine (boring out passages).
--
Nick R.
76-23'Transmode-Norris
Rear Bath
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115138 is a reply to message #115131] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 17:57 |
GMCNUSA
Messages: 283
Registered: August 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I don't remember how many times, but Dick Paterson said he hot tanks the block many times during the different machining processes. He works in a "clean" room for assembly of engine and components. He is very serious about clean. The NASCAR race shops do not allow funnels to sit in the open they are kept in a clean container or ziplock bag that is only used for that funnel. All oil is kept in closed containers and each oil blend and or trransmission gear oil etc has desiginated funnels so not even one drip of oil can get into a place it is not designed for.
I get to hear alot of interesting procedures and rules at the racing and hotrod shows we are fortunate to host hear in Indianapolis. This past fall I ran into Joe Mondello at the racing show and up walks Dick Paterson. I don't race anymore but I own a 12000 lb Hotrod that needs lote of upkeeep.
Larry Dilk
Indianapolis, IN
76 Eleganza II
Patterson 455,Turbo City TBI,
Just LOVE It!
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115143 is a reply to message #115131] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 18:37 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Rob & All, As part of my engine overhaul proceedure, after I have buttoned
up the engine, I mount it onto an engine test stand. I put straight 30
weight oil in it and a new oil filter. I have the cooling system hooked up
to a heat exchanger from a marine application, and use fresh water both in
the closed system as well as the external supply. I always use a 9 #
pressure cap, the same as the GMC. When all lines and fasteners are tight, I
adjust the static timing to GMC specs using a GMC HEI ignition. I pressurize
the lubrication system with the base of an old mallory ignition for an
Oldsmobile that has the cam gear removed and a spacer in it's stead. I drive
the distributor shaft in the direction the engine turns it when running and
run it with a heavy duty 3/8 electric drill until I get oil at all the
rocker arms and show pressure on a mechanical gage. I turn the engine over
with a flex handle and a socket that fits the crank bolt. I run a stock
water pump and a dummy alternator with no A/C compressor. After I pressurize
the system & find no leaks, I turn the carb idle screw in far enough that
the engine will run about 1500 -2000 RPM. I install the HEI and start the
engine, sometimes you will get some lifter clatter on start up but that
should quit in 15 -30 seconds. If it doesn't, shut it off & find out why. At
this point if I have to stop the engine, I will remove the oil filter and
fill another one with fresh 30 wt and screw it on. I invert the used one in
an old stainless steel Proctor Silex coffee pot top that is a funnel. I then
restart the engine and run in the camshaft and lifters for about 20
minutes at rpm noted. I watch the temp gage during this and also the oil
pressure as well as individual exhaust headers. Any sign of overheat, I shut
the engine down & find out why. After the run in, I drain the oil and remove
the filter. I always cut the filter with a sharp utility knife and look the
paper element and the interior of the can for metal and check it with a
magnet. Haven't ever not found stuff in there. If there is a lot, the pan
comes back off & the bearing caps come off, cranks are spendy, bearings are
cheap. By the way, I still have lost engines after all this. Humans install
this stuff & humans aren't perfect, just forgiven, but God don't pay for
towing & R & R engines. Just my slant on this.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Nick,
>
> I don't mean to be difficult but as I am going to be assembling a Cadillac
> 500 engine shortly I want to make sure I do everything correctly so any
> specifics regarding cleaning the oil passages would be appreciated. Why ATF
> and not solvent?
>
> Also I'm wondering how to test to determine:
>
> "As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at
> high RPM and COLD conditions."
>
> What RPM range?
>
> What ambient temperature range?
>
> What oil temperature range?
>
> What oil viscosity (SAE?? - ??W)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Nick Roenick
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:27 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
>
> Having built an engine or two, I can attest to the: "if it doesn't pass
> the
> white glove test it's not clean" theory. The oil passages get cleaned out
> with rifle brushes and ATF, with special care on dead-end bores. Just
> cleaning with solvent will NOT flush the debris out. We always wash the
> block after the drilling,decking and honing is done. There is too much to
> lose.
> As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at
> high RPM and COLD conditions. Almost all filters will have some restriction
> after the first 1000 miles, only the high capacity ones will survive. Is
> there a high capacity for the Olds engine? Has anyone researched this? As
> to
> the dual filter application we can assume that it would cause no harm if
> you
> increase the amount of flow in the lines by enlarging the capacity of the
> lines and the connecting parts in the engine (boring out passages).
> --
> Nick R.
> 76-23'Transmode-Norris
> Rear Bath
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115146 is a reply to message #115128] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 18:42 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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WIX filters are recognized as some of the better filters. It has been discussed here in the past that WIX has apparently two versions of filter listed for the 455 (I don't have the numbers handy so I'll call them Small & Smaller)
It has also been discussed here in the past that the correct filter is quite small for it's application raising some questions as to it's ability to do an efficient job.
It isn't a secret that the 455 can be sensitive to lubrication demands. I now wonder if the filter plays a more serious part in this mistery?
Another very big concern of mine is how the oil filters are handled by the autoparts stores prior to final sale. I try to select filters that are wrapped in a sealed package, or at a minimum, a closed box. Loose unsealed filters are a problem waiting to happen. An unsealed filter is next to impossible to clean once airborne dirt has found it's way inside.
So many variables could be responsible for an engine failure.
Les Burt
Sent from my iPhone
On 2011-02-15, at 5:29 PM, Dan Gregg <gregg_dan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just so everyone knows, I was using 10 dollar Wix oil filters.
> dan
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115151 is a reply to message #115143] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 19:00 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
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Jim,
More good info!
Thanks,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:38 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
Rob & All, As part of my engine overhaul proceedure, after I have buttoned
up the engine, I mount it onto an engine test stand. I put straight 30
weight oil in it and a new oil filter. I have the cooling system hooked up
to a heat exchanger from a marine application, and use fresh water both in
the closed system as well as the external supply. I always use a 9 #
pressure cap, the same as the GMC. When all lines and fasteners are tight, I
adjust the static timing to GMC specs using a GMC HEI ignition. I pressurize
the lubrication system with the base of an old mallory ignition for an
Oldsmobile that has the cam gear removed and a spacer in it's stead. I drive
the distributor shaft in the direction the engine turns it when running and
run it with a heavy duty 3/8 electric drill until I get oil at all the
rocker arms and show pressure on a mechanical gage. I turn the engine over
with a flex handle and a socket that fits the crank bolt. I run a stock
water pump and a dummy alternator with no A/C compressor. After I pressurize
the system & find no leaks, I turn the carb idle screw in far enough that
the engine will run about 1500 -2000 RPM. I install the HEI and start the
engine, sometimes you will get some lifter clatter on start up but that
should quit in 15 -30 seconds. If it doesn't, shut it off & find out why. At
this point if I have to stop the engine, I will remove the oil filter and
fill another one with fresh 30 wt and screw it on. I invert the used one in
an old stainless steel Proctor Silex coffee pot top that is a funnel. I then
restart the engine and run in the camshaft and lifters for about 20
minutes at rpm noted. I watch the temp gage during this and also the oil
pressure as well as individual exhaust headers. Any sign of overheat, I shut
the engine down & find out why. After the run in, I drain the oil and remove
the filter. I always cut the filter with a sharp utility knife and look the
paper element and the interior of the can for metal and check it with a
magnet. Haven't ever not found stuff in there. If there is a lot, the pan
comes back off & the bearing caps come off, cranks are spendy, bearings are
cheap. By the way, I still have lost engines after all this. Humans install
this stuff & humans aren't perfect, just forgiven, but God don't pay for
towing & R & R engines. Just my slant on this.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Nick,
>
> I don't mean to be difficult but as I am going to be assembling a Cadillac
> 500 engine shortly I want to make sure I do everything correctly so any
> specifics regarding cleaning the oil passages would be appreciated. Why
ATF
> and not solvent?
>
> Also I'm wondering how to test to determine:
>
> "As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at
> high RPM and COLD conditions."
>
> What RPM range?
>
> What ambient temperature range?
>
> What oil temperature range?
>
> What oil viscosity (SAE?? - ??W)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Nick Roenick
> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:27 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
>
> Having built an engine or two, I can attest to the: "if it doesn't pass
> the
> white glove test it's not clean" theory. The oil passages get cleaned out
> with rifle brushes and ATF, with special care on dead-end bores. Just
> cleaning with solvent will NOT flush the debris out. We always wash the
> block after the drilling,decking and honing is done. There is too much to
> lose.
> As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at
> high RPM and COLD conditions. Almost all filters will have some
restriction
> after the first 1000 miles, only the high capacity ones will survive. Is
> there a high capacity for the Olds engine? Has anyone researched this? As
> to
> the dual filter application we can assume that it would cause no harm if
> you
> increase the amount of flow in the lines by enlarging the capacity of the
> lines and the connecting parts in the engine (boring out passages).
> --
> Nick R.
> 76-23'Transmode-Norris
> Rear Bath
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115152 is a reply to message #115131] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 19:31 |
pickle4k
Messages: 129
Registered: January 2011
Location: San Leandro
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rob,
The engines I built have been Chevy 350 and Pontiac 400/455. I use ATF because it has lubrication quality with detergent and solvent seems to dry metal out to make it cling to it self. The rifle brushes work real well in small spaces.
To your questions:
Also I'm wondering how to test to determine:
"As to the oil bypass in the filter, we have seen that most will bypass at high RPM and COLD conditions."
What RPM range? Mostly above 2500 rpm for a new motor
What ambient temperature range? COLD is 70-75 degrees
What oil temperature range? COLD until 150*
What oil viscosity (SAE?? - ??W)Break in 30W with new filter, swap filter after 1 hour of run at 2000 rpm.
This has found most issues with an engine. Even after a short period we have had failures due to material defects. There is no way to make an engine bullet proof. Jim Hupy illustrated similar findings.
Nick R. NorCal
76-23'Transmode-Norris
Rear Bath and
75-26' Avion
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| Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow [message #115154 is a reply to message #115146] |
Tue, 15 February 2011 19:33 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Les,
I just did a search on the Wix website and here's the only part number that
comes up either the 403 and/or 455:
Part Number: 51258
UPC Number: 765809512580
Principal Application: AMC (60-81), GM (67-80)
All Applications
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Service: Lube
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 4.338
Outer Diameter Top: 3.660
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 13/16-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: None
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Beta Ratio: 2/20=11/30
Burst Pressure-PSI: 345
Max Flow Rate: 9-11 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 21
Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
15314 2.834 2.462 0.200
I am surprised by:
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: None
I then did a Where to Buy search on the Wix website and it came back with
O'Reilly Auto.
I went to the O'Reilly Auto website and did a search for an oil filter for a
Olds Toronado and it came up with the following:
Micro Guard:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MGD1/MGL3506.oap?pt=C0289&ppt=C0023
Wix:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/WIX0/51258.oap?pt=C0289&ppt=C0023
Fram: (Sorry Steve F., I listed this for reference only!)
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/FRA1/PH25.oap?pt=C0289&ppt=C0023
Bosch:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BOS8/3423.oap?pt=C0289&ppt=C0023
AC Delco:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/ACD4/PF24.oap?pt=C0289&ppt=C0023
K&N:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/KNN1/HP2003.oap?pt=C0289&ppt=C0023
I've got to head to the workshop now but will do some more poking around on
this later.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Les Burt
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:43 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Oldsmobile Engine Oil Flow
WIX filters are recognized as some of the better filters. It has been
discussed here in the past that WIX has apparently two versions of filter
listed for the 455 (I don't have the numbers handy so I'll call them Small &
Smaller)
It has also been discussed here in the past that the correct filter is quite
small for it's application raising some questions as to it's ability to do
an efficient job.
It isn't a secret that the 455 can be sensitive to lubrication demands. I
now wonder if the filter plays a more serious part in this mistery?
Another very big concern of mine is how the oil filters are handled by the
autoparts stores prior to final sale. I try to select filters that are
wrapped in a sealed package, or at a minimum, a closed box. Loose unsealed
filters are a problem waiting to happen. An unsealed filter is next to
impossible to clean once airborne dirt has found it's way inside.
So many variables could be responsible for an engine failure.
Les Burt
Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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