Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111393] |
Sat, 08 January 2011 21:52  |
Gary Worobec
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005
Karma: -1
|
Senior Member |
|
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Jim, If you are making a change in "current production" then I would like to send mine back and get a "current production" one with the problem cured. I'm a bit P.O.ed here in that there were no instructions with this thing on what to watch out for if in fact there are some issues in the installation. If George Beckman had not brought this entire thing up a couple of days ago I could have installed mine as is and LOST THE MOTOR. I would really appreciate a heads up on issues like this in the future.
Thanks,
Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 Glacier 23
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 8, 2011 3:28 PM
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>
>Gary Rockwell has been on top of this problem.
>It is hard to make changes when One does not know exatly what is happening.
>We have sold at least 40 of these manifold and have heard back from
>about 4 people.
>All the ones we installed here had no ptoblems as our guys do not want
>to have me jump in and do it myself.
>We have made another change on the current production with assistance
>from Joe Mondello.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> George,
>>
>> The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
>> it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
>> the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
>>
>> I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
>> start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
>> I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
>>
>> When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
>> 404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
>> making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
>>
>> From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
>> far as I know).
>>
>> I should note that the Gorilla Snot was Steve Fergusons idea and John Sharpe
>> helped with the job. John applied the RTV at both ends and guided the
>> manifold down levelly (is that a word?) front/back - left/right and aligned
>> it perfectly before it touched down! We cutoff two bolts and screwed them in
>> the very front and very rear bolt on the passenger side head.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> USAussie - Downunder
>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
>> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of George Beckman
>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:10 AM
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>
>>
>>
>> Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43
>>> George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> George;
>>>
>>>
>>> 3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very
>> slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time.
>> This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often
>> and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. Â (This is in reverse of what
>> is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are
>> dealing with composition gaskets here.)
>>>
>>> Good luck from Bob D in SESD
>>
>>
>> This brings up an interesting point. Â My manuals that were in the '74 show
>> the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center
>> in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
>>
>> Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. Â What gives?
>> --
>> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
>> Best Wishes,
>> George
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Jim Kanomata
>Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>http://www.appliedgmc.com
>1-800-752-7502
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>List Information and Subscription Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111404 is a reply to message #111393] |
Sun, 09 January 2011 01:09  |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
|
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| Gary Worobec wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 19:52 |
Jim, If you are making a change in "current production" then I would like to send mine back and get a "current production" one with the problem cured. I'm a bit P.O.ed here in that there were no instructions with this thing on what to watch out for if in fact there are some issues in the installation. If George Beckman had not brought this entire thing up a couple of days ago I could have installed mine as is and LOST THE MOTOR. I would really appreciate a heads up on issues like this in the future.
Thanks,
Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 Glacier 23
|
I am not complaining about parts, but there are some differences. To tell the truth, I am not all that impressed with gaskets. So far I have used Mr. Gasket 404 and am now trying Fel-Pro 1356. But Gary is right... I could have lost an engine. I went over the grapevine going and coming... not a hill to loose oil pressure and not a good place to run with 1.5 quarts of oil. So I am really paying attention to the intake-gasket placement. The head can take care of itself.
Tonight I lined up the Fel-Pro on the intake bolt holes. It sits too low to suit me. If it goes as low (toward the valley) as the large holes in the gasket allow, you are in danger of having a gap between the faced lip of the ports and the gasket which is where I lost the 8 quarts in 500 miles. At the top the gasket covers part of the port.
If you move the gasket up enough so the middle ports have no gasket hanging over at the top, the bolt holes in the gasket will have to be wallowed out a bit... which I plan to do. This position achieved by putting my fingers in the middle ports and "evening the gasket and port" and this makes for good coverage at the bottom.
(If I had not lost our camera at the Rose Parade I would take pictures.)
I plan to center my gasket on the ports of the intake (_not_ the bolt holes) and glue it down with black RTV as suggested by Bob Drewes. I have already "notched" the Fel-Pro so the block off plates sit in the head side of the gasket. (I did not cut a hole in the gasket but dug a hole with lots of patience, a Dremel tool and a exacto knife. I want that plate mashed in there and the Fel-Pro is a little thicker than the plate. I will use red RTV for the crossover ports.
I will let it set up over night as I want that gasket immovable on the manifold. Then I will put fresh RTV on the heads and let the gasket slide on the head if need be.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111405 is a reply to message #111393] |
Sun, 09 January 2011 01:22 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> George,
>>
>> The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
>> it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
>> the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
>>
>> I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
>> start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
>> I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
>>
>> When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
>> 404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
>> making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
>>
>> From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
>> far as I know).
>
[/quote]
Rob,
Several things here. My '74 book says torque from the outside in. That just seems wrong. If you were flattening out a piece of contact paper you would not start at the ends. I like the idea of inside out.
We also used bolts with the heads cut off to center our first effort.
Centering the gasket on the bolts puts you in danger of what happened to me, but you may be OK. There is no doubt that the bolt holes in a 404 lets it drop to far... if you let it. Apparently sometime between when we set the gasket on the head and we torqued it down, the back right slid down. We are talking a quarter of an inch, maybe an eighth. You can see this if you look at how much gasket you can see at the top. When I was popping my intake loose, I did notice a slight drop in the gasket material showing. We just never imagined we has so little to work with on the lower side and that the gasket could move beyond the face of the intake port.
All others were sealed, but with maybe 1/4 of an inch of gasket between faces. I know this is not cheery news, but we only have to hold vacuum... which is not much pressure.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111461 is a reply to message #111393] |
Sun, 09 January 2011 16:33 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
We as a shop do not have any problems with the units.
There are ways to install them and seal it, if were having problems
there, I do not think that the later ones will do much better.
When ever you work on an endine, you need to monitor the oil level and
pressure. If your careless and just drive like most, your gong to
destroy an engine.
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:52 PM, gworobec <gtw5@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Jim, If you are making a change in "current production" then I would like to send mine back and get a "current production" one with the problem cured. I'm a bit P.O.ed here in that there were no instructions with this thing on what to watch out for if in fact there are some issues in the installation. If George Beckman had not brought this entire thing up a couple of days ago I could have installed mine as is and LOST THE MOTOR. I would really appreciate a heads up on issues like this in the future.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gary and Joanne Worobec
> 1973 Glacier 23
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
>>Sent: Jan 8, 2011 3:28 PM
>>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>
>>Gary Rockwell has been on top of this problem.
>>It is hard to make changes when One does not know exatly what is happening.
>>We have sold at least 40 of these manifold and have heard back from
>>about 4 people.
>>All the ones we installed here had no ptoblems as our guys do not want
>>to have me jump in and do it myself.
>>We have made another change on the current production with assistance
>>from Joe Mondello.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>> George,
>>>
>>> The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
>>> it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
>>> the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
>>>
>>> I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
>>> start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
>>> I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
>>>
>>> When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
>>> 404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
>>> making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
>>>
>>> From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
>>> far as I know).
>>>
>>> I should note that the Gorilla Snot was Steve Fergusons idea and John Sharpe
>>> helped with the job. John applied the RTV at both ends and guided the
>>> manifold down levelly (is that a word?) front/back - left/right and aligned
>>> it perfectly before it touched down! We cutoff two bolts and screwed them in
>>> the very front and very rear bolt on the passenger side head.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Rob M.
>>> USAussie - Downunder
>>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
>>> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of George Beckman
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:10 AM
>>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43
>>>> George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> George;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very
>>> slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time.
>>> This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often
>>> and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. Â (This is in reverse of what
>>> is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are
>>> dealing with composition gaskets here.)
>>>>
>>>> Good luck from Bob D in SESD
>>>
>>>
>>> This brings up an interesting point. Â My manuals that were in the '74 show
>>> the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center
>>> in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
>>>
>>> Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. Â What gives?
>>> --
>>> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
>>> Best Wishes,
>>> George
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Jim Kanomata
>>Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>>jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>>http://www.appliedgmc.com
>>1-800-752-7502
>>_______________________________________________
>>GMCnet mailing list
>>List Information and Subscription Options:
>>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111483 is a reply to message #111461] |
Sun, 09 January 2011 19:43 |
Gary Rockwell
Messages: 18
Registered: November 2010
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
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|
All of the manifolds are checked on a master fixture before packaging.
There have been a few past years that slipped in the machining
fixture while being machined, so at that point we built the check
fixture. All of them were replaced. So, I seriously doubt that has
happened in this case. If, however, yours is one I would gladly swap
for a new one.
If you need a replacement please call or email me 937-367-3744 or
email rockwellprecision@att.net
More likely though as the previous post state, you would need Mr.
Gasket 404 and Gorilla Snott or RTV.
You also need to RTV the deck rails too.
New Stainless Steel Bolts with Stainless AN Washers are recommended as well.
The Aluminum Intake Manifold is not a "Standard Product". It is
something we made available to fellow members in our hobby. There is
a lot a variation with engines since a lot of them have be
re-machined. So a good gasket and sealant is usually needed and
perhaps some additional machining. A little tweaking is definetely
worth it compared to dealing with an 80 pound cracked iron manifold.
The changes coming that Jim mentioned don't really apply to the issue
in this thread. The changes have to do with mounting fuel rails and
making the A/C bracket bolt hole deeper, and adding a champfer for the
rear butterfly clearance so people do not have to die grind it.
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> We as a shop do not have any problems with the units.
> There are ways to install them and seal it, if were having problems
> there, I do not think that the later ones will do much better.
> When ever you work on an endine, you need to monitor the oil level and
> pressure. If your careless and just drive like most, your gong to
> destroy an engine.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:52 PM, gworobec <gtw5@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Jim, If you are making a change in "current production" then I would like to send mine back and get a "current production" one with the problem cured. I'm a bit P.O.ed here in that there were no instructions with this thing on what to watch out for if in fact there are some issues in the installation. If George Beckman had not brought this entire thing up a couple of days ago I could have installed mine as is and LOST THE MOTOR. I would really appreciate a heads up on issues like this in the future.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gary and Joanne Worobec
>> 1973 Glacier 23
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
>>>Sent: Jan 8, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>>>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>>
>>>Gary Rockwell has been on top of this problem.
>>>It is hard to make changes when One does not know exatly what is happening.
>>>We have sold at least 40 of these manifold and have heard back from
>>>about 4 people.
>>>All the ones we installed here had no ptoblems as our guys do not want
>>>to have me jump in and do it myself.
>>>We have made another change on the current production with assistance
>>>from Joe Mondello.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>> George,
>>>>
>>>> The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
>>>> it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
>>>> the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
>>>>
>>>> I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
>>>> start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
>>>> I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
>>>>
>>>> When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
>>>> 404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
>>>> making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
>>>>
>>>> From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
>>>> far as I know).
>>>>
>>>> I should note that the Gorilla Snot was Steve Fergusons idea and John Sharpe
>>>> helped with the job. John applied the RTV at both ends and guided the
>>>> manifold down levelly (is that a word?) front/back - left/right and aligned
>>>> it perfectly before it touched down! We cutoff two bolts and screwed them in
>>>> the very front and very rear bolt on the passenger side head.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rob M.
>>>> USAussie - Downunder
>>>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>>>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
>>>> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of George Beckman
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:10 AM
>>>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43
>>>>> George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> George;
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very
>>>> slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time.
>>>> This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often
>>>> and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. (This is in reverse of what
>>>> is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are
>>>> dealing with composition gaskets here.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck from Bob D in SESD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This brings up an interesting point. My manuals that were in the '74 show
>>>> the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center
>>>> in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
>>>>
>>>> Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. What gives?
>>>> --
>>>> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
>>>> Best Wishes,
>>>> George
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jim Kanomata
>>>Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>>>jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>>>http://www.appliedgmc.com
>>>1-800-752-7502
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>GMCnet mailing list
>>>List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111521 is a reply to message #111483] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 08:40 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gary,
Your recommendation to use stainless steel bolts is not what a
metallurgists would recommend. You are doing a disservice to your
customers by tell them to use them. Do a little research and you will
see that I am right.
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Gary Rockwell <cordax1964@gmail.com> wrote:
> All of the manifolds are checked on a master fixture before packaging.
> There have been a few past years that slipped in the machining
> fixture while being machined, so at that point we built the check
> fixture. All of them were replaced. So, I seriously doubt that has
> happened in this case. If, however, yours is one I would gladly swap
> for a new one.
>
> If you need a replacement please call or email me 937-367-3744 or
> email rockwellprecision@att.net
>
> More likely though as the previous post state, you would need Mr.
> Gasket 404 and Gorilla Snott or RTV.
> You also need to RTV the deck rails too.
>
> New Stainless Steel Bolts with Stainless AN Washers are recommended as well.
>
> The Aluminum Intake Manifold is not a "Standard Product". It is
> something we made available to fellow members in our hobby. There is
> a lot a variation with engines since a lot of them have be
> re-machined. So a good gasket and sealant is usually needed and
> perhaps some additional machining. A little tweaking is definetely
> worth it compared to dealing with an 80 pound cracked iron manifold.
>
> The changes coming that Jim mentioned don't really apply to the issue
> in this thread. The changes have to do with mounting fuel rails and
> making the A/C bracket bolt hole deeper, and adding a champfer for the
> rear butterfly clearance so people do not have to die grind it.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
>> We as a shop do not have any problems with the units.
>> There are ways to install them and seal it, if were having problems
>> there, I do not think that the later ones will do much better.
>> When ever you work on an endine, you need to monitor the oil level and
>> pressure. If your careless and just drive like most, your gong to
>> destroy an engine.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:52 PM, gworobec <gtw5@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Jim, If you are making a change in "current production" then I would like to send mine back and get a "current production" one with the problem cured. I'm a bit P.O.ed here in that there were no instructions with this thing on what to watch out for if in fact there are some issues in the installation. If George Beckman had not brought this entire thing up a couple of days ago I could have installed mine as is and LOST THE MOTOR. I would really appreciate a heads up on issues like this in the future.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Gary and Joanne Worobec
>>> 1973 Glacier 23
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
>>>>Sent: Jan 8, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>>>
>>>>Gary Rockwell has been on top of this problem.
>>>>It is hard to make changes when One does not know exatly what is happening.
>>>>We have sold at least 40 of these manifold and have heard back from
>>>>about 4 people.
>>>>All the ones we installed here had no ptoblems as our guys do not want
>>>>to have me jump in and do it myself.
>>>>We have made another change on the current production with assistance
>>>>from Joe Mondello.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>>> George,
>>>>>
>>>>> The OEM gasket is the turkey tray and evidently the Olds engineers decided
>>>>> it was better to start on the outside and work in. Somebody here mentioned
>>>>> the reason why but I can't remember who or why.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was taught on heads and intake manifolds with crush type fiber gaskets to
>>>>> start on the inside and work out. That was what the GMCnet recommended when
>>>>> I asked the same question in the fall of 2009.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I installed the RPM manifold on Double Trouble I used the Mr. Gasket
>>>>> 404 and black RTV at both ends. I glued them to the heads with Gorilla snot
>>>>> making sure the gaskets were centered around the ports.
>>>>>
>>>>> From what I've read here it appears I am fortunate that it isn't leaking (as
>>>>> far as I know).
>>>>>
>>>>> I should note that the Gorilla Snot was Steve Fergusons idea and John Sharpe
>>>>> helped with the job. John applied the RTV at both ends and guided the
>>>>> manifold down levelly (is that a word?) front/back - left/right and aligned
>>>>> it perfectly before it touched down! We cutoff two bolts and screwed them in
>>>>> the very front and very rear bolt on the passenger side head.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Rob M.
>>>>> USAussie - Downunder
>>>>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>>>>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of George Beckman
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:10 AM
>>>>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Surbo wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:43
>>>>>> George Beckman wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:20
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> George;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. When starting to snug the bolts down, do the four corners first, very
>>>>> slowly and not much torque and about a 1/4 turn on the bolts at one time.
>>>>> This will help center the intake manifold into the valley/heads. Check often
>>>>> and see if the manifold is setting in evenly. (This is in reverse of what
>>>>> is recommended for the cast manifold with the steel turkey pan, but you are
>>>>> dealing with composition gaskets here.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck from Bob D in SESD
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This brings up an interesting point. My manuals that were in the '74 show
>>>>> the torque order as starting from the outside, working in toward the center
>>>>> in sort of a snake pattern and this is what we did.
>>>>>
>>>>> Others have indicated patterns that start in the center. What gives?
>>>>> --
>>>>> '74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
>>>>> Best Wishes,
>>>>> George
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Jim Kanomata
>>>>Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>>>>jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>>>>http://www.appliedgmc.com
>>>>1-800-752-7502
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>GMCnet mailing list
>>>>List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111524 is a reply to message #111521] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 09:01 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
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Carlton,
I'm not Gary but I'd like to know why metallurgists would not recommend
installing SS bolts?
Could you elaborate a bit or provide any suggestions as to a Google search
to find out why?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Carleton Douglas
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:41 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
Gary,
Your recommendation to use stainless steel bolts is not what a
metallurgists would recommend. You are doing a disservice to your
customers by tell them to use them. Do a little research and you will
see that I am right.
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111530 is a reply to message #111524] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 09:40 |
 |
Hardie Johnson
Messages: 483
Registered: January 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 10:01 |
Carlton,I'm not Gary but I'd like to know why metallurgists would not recommend installing SS bolts? Could you elaborate a bit or provide any suggestions as to a Google search to find out why?
Regards,
Rob M.
<>
-----Original Message-----
Gary, Your recommendation to use stainless steel bolts is not what a metallurgists would recommend. You are doing a disservice to your customers by tell them to use them. Do a little research and you will see that I am right.
--
Carleton Douglas
|
I am not a metallurgist (nor an 'ornamental'  , but a mechanical engineer, and in general I avoid stainless fasteners because they are expensive and rather weak. Now there are many alloys that are called stainless steel; broadly generalizing, SS fasteners are about the equivalent of SAE grade 1-5.
Stainless fasteners also do not apply torque well as they have low yield strength, a flat yield curve, and provide reduced clamping forces at a hard to sense torque point. I tried them on my Lotus exhaust manifold and found they could not be torqued properly for this reason.
In the case of the Rockwell manifold you are securing an aluminum part to a cast iron part with a conductive bolt. Inevitably there will be galvanic corrosion somewhere in the joint which will result in the threads of the fastener being locked into place by corrosion products in the block. One approach is to use SS fasteners and anti-seize, a better way would be to use a cad or zinc plated fastener.
Here is a good google:
"cad plated fasteners stainless"
Hardie Johnson "Crashj"
1973 26 foot Glacier, White Thing
Raleigh NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111599 is a reply to message #111530] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 19:41 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Hardie Johnson <hardie.j@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not a metallurgist (nor an 'ornamental' ;), but a mechanical engineer,
> and in general I avoid stainless fasteners because they are expensive and
> rather weak.
>
They also gall easily and bind in the threads, making their weakness a
greater concern.
The rear sub-frame on the junkyard coach that donated my replacement back
end was installed using 1/2" TFE stainless bolts. The split-side lock
washers were sufficient to cause the buts to bind on the threads and they
could not be removed. But it was no biggie--they were easy enough to just
break off with a 24" 3/4-drive ratchet handle. Break off a 1/2" bolt using
just the armstrong method? That's a weak bolt!
I use stainless for places where Grade 2 would work, and maybe the expensive
ones where Grade 5 would work, and for things like wood screws. Many of the
316 fasteners I have bought from McMaster have been quite strong--as good as
Grade 5. These would probably be nominally strong enough for an intake
manifold, but I'd be scared of them during removal--even more scared than
when using old, rusty steel bolts.
The factory used bolts with a black oxide finish, and probably dipped them
in engine oil before installing them, as the maintenance manual recommends
(going on memory there). I use anti-seize with black-oxide bolts and have
never had one prove unremovable.
For some of the threaded holes in the aluminum manifold, I recommend studs.
I never was able to keep my thermostat housing from leaking until I replaced
the bolts with studs. Standard lengths of bolts are either two short to
engage enough threads, or too long and bottom out. The iron manifold runs
the bolt holes into the water passage, but the aluminum one does not. Studs
can be screwed all the way down, and engage all the threads at all times,
even when just starting to snug up the housing. Aluminum threads are weak. I
had leaks because I felt the threads start to yield slightly when I tried to
torque those bolts down--a fine touch I remember from decades ago when I did
a turn as a mechanic (my nickname was Captain Torque and it was not a
compliment, but I learned). I was able to torque down nuts on the studs
holding down that thermostat housing without that squeamish feeling, and no
more seeps.
Rick "Captain Torque no longer" Denney
--
'73 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111635 is a reply to message #111619] |
Mon, 10 January 2011 23:10 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Carlton,
Agreed, however, doesn't that occur if you use zinc or cadmium plated bolts
as well?
For the record I replaced the 2" long OEM bolts with new 1 3/4" long grade 8
cadmium plated bolts and washers on the RPM manifold I installed. It was one
of the re-machined versions and the 2" bolts were too long.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Carleton Douglas
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 2:25 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:01 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
wrote:
> Carlton,
>
Rob, if you put aluminum and stainless steel together you get
electricity, a battery. This causes galvanic corrosion and in about
two years you will see what I am talking about.
Stainless steel is nice to look at and it has it's place but not on our
engines.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Aluminum Intake and Sucking Oil #2 [message #111645 is a reply to message #111635] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 08:09 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
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Rob, that is true but not to extent that stainless does. The
Government would cad plate stainless, using the cad a insulator and
that helped some.
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Carlton,
>
> Agreed, however, doesn't that occur if you use zinc or cadmium plated bolts
> as well?
>
> For the record I replaced the 2" long OEM bolts with new 1 3/4" long grade 8
> cadmium plated bolts and washers on the RPM manifold I installed. It was one
> of the re-machined versions and the 2" bolts were too long
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