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| Lathe Project [message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 08:36  |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much diffrence in size??? .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project [message #110348 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 08:53  |
Terry Skinner
Messages: 379
Registered: January 2004
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If you plumb the TIG directly to a water supply such as the garden
hose it will keep the torch cool. In fact on my Miller I took the
solenoid out of the system so that cooling water would run thru the
torch even when I was not welding. Sure increases the duty cycle. You
will spend more time at the hardware store getting the parts than you
will assembling/installing it. Just be sure to drain the system in
this cold weather.........Terry who has no heat in the shop
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 6:36 AM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much diffrence in size??? .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
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--
Terry Skinner
253-686-2624
Roy. Washington
'76 GMC
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110351 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 09:25 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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Thanks Terry. How do I keep it from freezing running from the back of the house to my shop(detached). Of course with it being 62 and 100% humidity nothing freezing. Speaking of heat,,, even though its 62 in misery(oops, sorry, Missouri) hade to turn the heat on in the shop AND the MH garage.. Condensation on everything,,,lathe,mill,floor. Dripping off the sides of the GMC and my new Caddy motor.,,,GASP!!! And all my tools. And all of you who were at Dqu. have a good idea of how much I,ve got. Am also taking delivery of a new 48' box and pan break today. The GMC has ben the greatest reason for tool purchace ever,,,,,but don't tell the "Boss"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project [message #110354 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 09:37 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Paul, is the cylinder closed on the end or does it have to be water/air
tight? If you are just making a mounting flange for the bottom of it, and
you want an attractive (no pigeon dropping welds visible, then the
interference fit should work for you. By using the heat/freeze method you
should be able to get .003 or.004" in aluminum. If you really want to insure
that it won't come apart, chamfer the bottom OD of the cylinder, and the
bottom ID of the plate that, when assembled will give you a nifty place to
weld with good penetration possibilities. Can easily be machined after
welding, won't ever come apart, and invisible from the top. JWIWD.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 6:36 AM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder
> with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My
> welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and
> my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore
> a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl.
> in the freezer. Now,,,,how much diffrence in size??? .001 or maybe 2
> thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on
> the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in
> advance,,,,,PL
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110358 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 10:05 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:36 |
Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much diffrence in size??? .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
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Paul,
Without know all the specifics, I would stay with a final fit of -0.002 or less. All aluminum alloys have bearing load problems that may cause the final assembly to chip or distort.
Check my math, but the CTE for Al is about 12.5*10e-6 (0.0000125), so a 200*F on a 4" part would get a size change of ~0.010. So, if you skin the cylinder round and measure that then bore the plate to be 0.002 less, when you put the hot plate on the cold cylinder and let them come back to room temperature, you should have a good part. A -0.001~2 fit will be good, particularly with the way all AL alloys tend to gall and stick together anyway.
Some words of experience.
Make sure all you surface finishes are VERY FINE (use sharp tools).
Carefully deburr the parts so nothing can get hung up.
The prepared parts should feel like they would go together at room temperature (if you could just get them lined up right).
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project [message #110364 is a reply to message #110362] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 11:17 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Depending on temperature of the room and what the plate is sitting on, time
is measured in seconds, not minutes. Have everything at the ready and clean
and aligned properly before you touch the parts together. Aluminum transfers
heat at an amazing rate of speed. I rehearse my moves before I heat/cool the
parts and do it out of drafts. This proceedure is not unlike sleeving
cylinders in engine blocks but the materials are different. Blocks are
usually cast iron, big bulky castings that hold preheat well. Engine sleeves
are spun in a centrifuge while in a plastic state and the grain structure is
different than that of aluminum. I usually try for .002 -.003 interference
fit on those, but I step bore the block, leaving a ridge or step in the
bottom of the block for the sleeve to come to rest on. I leave the top of
the sleeve longer than the deck, and usually machine a block of hardwood to
fit inside the bore of the sleeve with a shoulder on it. I then heat the
block, cool the sleeve & when ready I drive the sleeve home with a few well
placed whacks with a 5# hammer. When they equalize, the only way to remove
the sleeve is to bore it out. Once the top of the deck surface is machined,
you can barely tell that the cylinder has been sleeved. I have done lots of
cast iron engines this way and have not had any problems with them. I was
taught this by an old time machinist. Learned a lot from that guy. Hope you
can relate this to your aluminum parts.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Jim and Matt. Part is open on each end and will hold air, will give
> it a try. How much time do you get to line up so the cyl. is at the correct
> depth?????thanks again,,,,,PL
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project [message #110374 is a reply to message #110351] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 13:12 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Darn, Paul, you really know how to take advantage of it when the
"Boss" gives you an opening, don't you?: "Honey, I want a new dash,
better than the Hendersons'..." "OK, Dear, I can do that. I'll only
need to spend a few hundred dollars on a few tools and I can whip that
right out..." :-)
For those who don't understand, I told him at Duquoin that building
new my dash really only required my 30+ year old $19.95 Japanese 18"
brake, plus maybe a couple of 2x4"s & C-clamps to make a couple of
long bends.
That's OK, you won't embarrass me: I'm going to the shop in a few
minutes to paint my new rally sign: "No Open House here -- Go to
Leavitts'"
Ken H.
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
>... Am also taking delivery of a new 48' box and pan break today. The GMC has ben the greatest reason for tool purchace ever,,,,,but don't tell the "Boss"
> _______________________________________________
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project [message #110397 is a reply to message #110362] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 16:08 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Paul,
"Open at each end and hold air"
HUH?
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue StreakTZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Paul Leavitt
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 3:54 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project
Thanks Jim and Matt. Part is open on each end and will hold air, will give
it a try. How much time do you get to line up so the cyl. is at the correct
depth?????thanks again,,,,,PL
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110408 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 17:13 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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For a moment I thought I had my forums mixed up. I thought I clicked into the home shop machinist forum:
http://www.chaski.com/homemachinist/
Gary - I think you have got some great answers here. I'll have to remember that when I have a machining question, GMC related of course <grin>.
| g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 08:36 |
Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much diffrence in size??? .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
|
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110410 is a reply to message #110362] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 17:17 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 11:54 |
Thanks Jim and Matt. Part is open on each end and will hold air, will give it a try. How much time do you get to line up so the cyl. is at the correct depth?????thanks again,,,,,PL
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OK Paul,
Depending on the actual situation, you may only have seconds. Guessing that both the tube and the plate are kind of large, you might have as long as 10 seconds to get things placed, but practice like you have 3 and maybe you get 5.......
If you are not going to put the tube through the plate, machine the OD down 40~60 (0.040~0.060)so you have a nice stop at the depth you want to set it. That way, when the plate is hot, you can open the reefer and grab the tube then open the oven, pull the plate forward and stuff the tube in until it stops. You can practice this operation with the wrong end of the tube because there will be no risk of engagement. Please trust me, the combination of heat and cold will be very distracting and when it is go time, you get one (count 'em 1, uno, eins) shot at the assembly. Do the practice (wrong end) run at full temperature at least twice before you go for glory. You will hear a funny ring/squeal/creak when the parts shrink together, you are done then (ready or not).
As you are working with and extrusion and a plate, there will be not oil burning out of the material, so it should not stink up the oven anymore than a frozen pizza.
You will not have thinking and measuring time when doing the hot assembly. If you even stop to consider if you still have eyebrows, you will probably loose the material.
As I said in the first note, you really should machine the tube OD anyway because it is not round right now.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110411 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 17:23 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
Karma: 0
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Ken,,,you're so funny. But I could have sworn you said 48 not 18. Wait a minute,,,those don't even sound simular. It is going on the GMC. Just want to see if it will work. Yesterday I went to the mall and got a control head,harness and the door motors off a 88 PU. Also got one MAP, 2 coolant sensors, And the conectors.. One extra door motor and conector. Also found 2 electric cruise contol units. Getting close but the finish line is a long way off!!!
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110413 is a reply to message #110347] |
Fri, 31 December 2010 17:33 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
Karma: 0
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Also,,, While driving down I-35 to SA the "Boss" had her feet up on the dash. She held a pillow under her legs and said,"hey, it would be really neet when you make the new dash that you make a thingy that pops up under and supports my legs. Can you have it come out from the side pannel." With my mouth almost down to about the new gauge panel I'm like "sure honey,,,,kinda like a Lzy Boy!!! She says"ya,, thats it". Well at least I got a new brake!!!,,,,, does any body know where I can get a junk lazy boy???? and an air cylinder????,,,,PL
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110464 is a reply to message #110413] |
Sat, 01 January 2011 08:00 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 15:33 |
... kinda like a Lzy Boy!!! She says"ya,, thats it". Well at least I got a new brake!!!,,,,, does any body know where I can get a junk lazy boy???? and an air cylinder????,,,,PL
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Check craigslist.org here are some examples:
free stuff
<http://sacramento.craigslist.org/zip/2128656988.html>
furniture - by owner
<http://sacramento.craigslist.org/fuo/2134351450.html>
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110477 is a reply to message #110347] |
Sat, 01 January 2011 09:17 |
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Hardie Johnson
Messages: 483
Registered: January 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Karma: 0
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| g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:36 |
Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much diffrence in size??? .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
|
Change in size of aluminum per degree F = 13.7 x 10-6 inch per inch, approximately, .0000137"
The hole expands over the 4", the pipe shrinks over the same 4", temp difference is, say 200F, which works out to .010", aprox.
The real question is how much interference is needed to hold things together. Usually this would be only a couple of thou. so tolerances on machining are tight.
Dry Ice is readily available to do the shrink all by cold, which is safer, btw.
Hardie Johnson "Crashj"
1973 26 foot Glacier, White Thing
Raleigh NC
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| Re: Lathe Project [message #110480 is a reply to message #110477] |
Sat, 01 January 2011 09:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Hardie Johnson wrote on Sat, 01 January 2011 10:17 |
| g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:36 |
Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much difference in size??? .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load. Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
|
Change in size of aluminum per degree F = 13.7 x 10-6 inch per inch, approximately, .0000137"
The hole expands over the 4", the pipe shrinks over the same 4", temp difference is, say 200F, which works out to .010", approx.
The real question is how much interference is needed to hold things together. Usually this would be only a couple of thou. so tolerances on machining are tight.
Dry Ice is readily available to do the shrink all by cold, which is safer, btw.
|
Hardie,
There are several problems with using dry ice and aluminum (apart from the fact that you have to BUY the dry ice.
First, Dry ice is only about -100*F, so you still have to heat the plate to get you 200*F delta.
Second, The cold part will collect frost very fast and that will make assembly difficult and include moisture in the joint.
Third, There is an issue with non-linearity of the block COE of aluminum and alloys (I don't have my materials books handy) such that the shrink actually achieved at dry ice temperature is less than would be expected.
Is it safer?
You still need big gloves and you can "burn" you hide with dry ice just as well as a hot stove.
I think it is Paul's call from here.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lathe Project [message #110485 is a reply to message #110480] |
Sat, 01 January 2011 10:15 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I used to have some cans of "Cold Stuff" that came in a 18oz pressure can w/
a long tube that was used to quick shock semiconductors and modules(like HEI
modules) to check for internal failures. I have used that stuff to cool down
smaller parts that I was interference fitting. It worked great. Turns out
that the major ingredient was R-12. Can no longer be obtained here. Maybe
still around in Canada or Mexico.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hardie Johnson wrote on Sat, 01 January 2011 10:17
> > g.winger wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:36
> > > Working on a project for the MH and have a Q. I have a 4" OD AL
> cylinder with 1/2" thick walls. Was going to attach to a 1/2" thick AL
> plate. My welder only goes up to 255amps and I don't have my TIG torch
> cooler made(and my welding skills aren't so hot,,,pun intended!!). So I
> thought I would bore a precise hole in the 1/2" plate. Throw the plate in
> the stove and the cyl. in the freezer. Now,,,,how much difference in size???
> .001 or maybe 2 thousands. Or real tight at .0025??? Whats real tight?? Will
> be mounted on the engine so it will have some vibration but no real load.
> Thanks in advance,,,,,PL
> >
> > Change in size of aluminum per degree F = 13.7 x 10-6 inch per inch,
> approximately, .0000137"
> > The hole expands over the 4", the pipe shrinks over the same 4", temp
> difference is, say 200F, which works out to .010", approx.
> > The real question is how much interference is needed to hold things
> together. Usually this would be only a couple of thou. so tolerances on
> machining are tight.
> > Dry Ice is readily available to do the shrink all by cold, which is
> safer, btw.
>
> Hardie,
>
> There are several problems with using dry ice and aluminum (apart from the
> fact that you have to BUY the dry ice.
> First, Dry ice is only about -100*F, so you still have to heat the plate to
> get you 200*F delta.
> Second, The cold part will collect frost very fast and that will make
> assembly difficult and include moisture in the joint.
> Third, There is an issue with non-linearity of the block COE of aluminum
> and alloys (I don't have my materials books handy) such that the shrink
> actually achieved at dry ice temperature is less than would be expected.
>
> Is it safer?
> You still need big gloves and you can "burn" you hide with dry ice just as
> well as a hot stove.
>
> I think it is Paul's call from here.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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