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| [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106701] |
Thu, 25 November 2010 07:43  |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Here is the latest N/L from Blackstone Labs. This flies in the face of the
hysteria most of us have come to agree with regarding the lower levels of
ZDDP in the new engine oils. This also supports the presentation given at
GMCWS Las Vegas by Jim Stark regarding any consequences of the supposed
lower levels of certain additives. You don't even want to hear about his
oil recommendations or filter changing frequency. Great presentation.
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106703 is a reply to message #106701] |
Thu, 25 November 2010 07:47  |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
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Steve,
You might want to attach the shortcut to the NL.
JR
On Nov 25, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
> Here is the latest N/L from Blackstone Labs. This flies in the
> face of the
> hysteria most of us have come to agree with regarding the lower
> levels of
> ZDDP in the new engine oils. This also supports the presentation
> given at
> GMCWS Las Vegas by Jim Stark regarding any consequences of the
> supposed
> lower levels of certain additives. You don't even want to hear
> about his
> oil recommendations or filter changing frequency. Great presentation.
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106713 is a reply to message #106706] |
Thu, 25 November 2010 11:36 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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A very interesting read. I love getting real data.
The data is good, but I am afraid that I think is incomplete. When changing oil anti-wear additives, you must be aware the some of the additive has imbedded it the loaded surfaces. Now if he had run longer on the oil and run this test on the whole a while longer. Notice that the zinc levels are still falling (go way to the bottom), so he has not run the all ZDDP out of the system. This is why I like Moly-Sulfide (MoS2). It still works even when you forget to add it.
I can tell you why cam lobes wear at different rates. It has to do with; Surface Finish (both the tappet and the cam), Material Hardening Process, Lubrication Distribution - Mostly.
In the early 70's the Pinto motors were loosing cams in warranty. Almost always #2 Exhaust was first to go. The grind was an internal operation and very prone to losing the flame quality on that burner.
In the late 70's the Flint SB plant was the subject of a similar, but not quite so bad. The line ground a multiple of lobes in a single operation and a the wheel finisher had come out of spec and was not caught for several months.
During vehicle durability at Chrysler, the validations are all done with lube oil changes at half the recommended rate (twice the mileage). The vehicle durability engines (that were not prone to lube issues - not all families are the same) that I inspected - probably several hundred over the span of about five years - seldom, if ever had lubrication issues. The taxi and police fleet engines also ran long service intervals, but many did not fair well because the air filters were removed of ignored and the valves and bores got wiped out. A taxi engine from AZ (Phoenix or Flagstaff) came back with oil that was so bad you could feel the grit between your fingers. I didn't score that as a lubrication failure.
Enough of story time. The kids are arriving.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106722 is a reply to message #106720] |
Thu, 25 November 2010 14:59 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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As I recall in working on numerous GM small block engines, about 1967, GM
went to 1.6-1 rocker arm ratio and that is when the cam lobe failures
started in earnest. The greater ratio moved the valves further with no more
lobe lift, but it also increased the loading between the lobe and the
lifter. GM issued a "courtesy silent recall" after the 1969 model year with
the understanding that if an owner came in and complained about a loss in
power and a rough running engine, that the first place to check was the
valve lift. If this was out of spec, they would allow 2.2 hrs R & R time to
change out the cam & lifters on a non AC car, and 2.4 hrs on an AC car. This
was an unadvertised or silent recall that was chalked up to customer
relations. They knew at the time what the problem was and what it would take
to remediate it, but it was far cheaper to only fix the few complaints than
it was to put in a cam & lifter package that was more durable. Can't really
blame corporate, their responsibility was to the stockholders and profit was
the bottom line. GM always considered their product sold when the vehicles
went to the hands of the dealers. The end users of the products were the
dealers responsibility. One of the reasons why I worked in Independent
shops instead of dealerships
for a lot of my career.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Royale 403
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Jim Decheine
<jade@tabletoptelephone.com>wrote:
> Roger;
> Thanks for the nice presentation at the Vegas Rally and the write up on
> oils.
> Back in 1969 I worked on the heavy line at a major Chev. dealer in MN.
> We were experiencing cam lobe failure on one lobe of the 350 engines. (Flat
> tappet engine)
> At that time, nothing was ever mentioned about the amount of ZDDP additive
> in the oils and I'm sure
> back then there was plenty of it in the oils.
> I attributed it to a mfg. defect as we checked all the clearances and
> spring
> tensions on all the valves on the
> engines where the cams failed.
> Just my thoughts.
> JADE
> 73 23' ?? 73 26' Palm Desert
> Ajo, AZ
> KC7QGC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Black" <r1black@comcast.net>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils
>
>
> > ZDD-What??
> >
> http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e&id=1ea8310184&e=e1a94e1271
> >
> > Report of the month
> >
> http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e&id=dea9899ac8&e=e1a94e1271
> >
> >
> > Sorry Patrick for the html on the previous note! <G>
> >
> >
> > Roger Black
> > 77 Birchaven
> > Burns, Tn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106775 is a reply to message #106703] |
Fri, 26 November 2010 07:05 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Oops! (Size two font)
Here is the link. You can also subscribe to their newsletter. Plenty of
good stuff inside.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/November-1-2010.php?utm_source=Nov+2010+Gas%2FDiesel&utm_campaign=490af17038-Nov_2010_Gas_Di esel_Newsletter11_22_2010&utm_medium=email
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 6:47 AM, John Wright <powerjon@chartermi.net> wrote:
> Steve,
> You might want to attach the shortcut to the NL.
>
> JR
> On Nov 25, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
>
> > Here is the latest N/L from Blackstone Labs. This flies in the
> > face of the
> > hysteria most of us have come to agree with regarding the lower
> > levels of
> > ZDDP in the new engine oils. This also supports the presentation
> > given at
> > GMCWS Las Vegas by Jim Stark regarding any consequences of the
> > supposed
> > lower levels of certain additives. You don't even want to hear
> > about his
> > oil recommendations or filter changing frequency. Great presentation.
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
> > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106776 is a reply to message #106710] |
Fri, 26 November 2010 07:07 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Rob,
That is soooo common in older Chevy engines. One of the most common
reasons for that is a push in rocker stud backing out, or a valve spring
breaking etc, the lash becomes excessive and eventually takes out the cam
lobe.
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Roger,
>
> Thanks!
>
> VERY interesting reading!
>
> The most interesting thing to me was when he noted that only ONE lobe on
> the
> cam was effected!
>
> I thought about that for a bit and have come up with the following reasons:
>
> 1) spring pressure on that valve was higher than all the others
> 2) valve guide clearances on that valve were too tight
>
> Anybody else got some ideas?
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Roger Black
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:26 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils
>
> ZDD-What??
>
> http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db4
> 9e0cd6e&id=1ea8310184&e=e1a94e1271
>
> Report of the month
>
> http://blackstone-labs.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=f641390cba42169db4
> 9e0cd6e&id=dea9899ac8&e=e1a94e1271
>
>
> Sorry Patrick for the html on the previous note! <G>
>
>
> Roger Black
> 77 Birchaven
> Burns, Tn
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106777 is a reply to message #106711] |
Fri, 26 November 2010 07:13 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Senior Member |
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Jim Stark gave the presentation and you just have to believe what the man
says since his whole life and livleyhood has been oil. He lives in Indiana
so you Eastern states guys should get him lined up for a presentation. He
has a small tag along trailer that he stays in while on the road so staying
for more than one day is very doable for him.
He and his wife also sing and play well together and we had the pleasure of
them providing a night's entertainment for us at GMCWS, Las Vegas.
Nice guy!
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 9:22 AM, <mr.erfisher@gmail.com> wrote:
> Really enjoyed the write up
> Gene
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 25, 2010, at 5:43 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Here is the latest N/L from Blackstone Labs. This flies in the face of
> the
> > hysteria most of us have come to agree with regarding the lower levels of
> > ZDDP in the new engine oils. This also supports the presentation given
> at
> > GMCWS Las Vegas by Jim Stark regarding any consequences of the supposed
> > lower levels of certain additives. You don't even want to hear about his
> > oil recommendations or filter changing frequency. Great presentation.
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
> > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106787 is a reply to message #106777] |
Fri, 26 November 2010 09:59 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
Amazing a "drummer" that's NOT selling snake oil! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven Ferguson
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:14 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils
Jim Stark gave the presentation and you just have to believe what the man
says since his whole life and livleyhood has been oil. He lives in Indiana
so you Eastern states guys should get him lined up for a presentation. He
has a small tag along trailer that he stays in while on the road so staying
for more than one day is very doable for him.
He and his wife also sing and play well together and we had the pleasure of
them providing a night's entertainment for us at GMCWS, Las Vegas.
Nice guy!
--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106789 is a reply to message #106783] |
Fri, 26 November 2010 10:00 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Last month I sent in the first sample from the Cad500. When they did the
analysis the numbers looked suspicious so the technician actually called me
to discuss them. I hadn't made it clear that the engine had just been
overhauled so some of the intitial break-in results were out of line with
those for a long-used engine..
I really appreciated them being conscientious enough to make the call.
Ken H.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Roger Black <r1black@comcast.net> wrote:
> ...Note the remarks section on each one. This is a plain English
> description of what's going on with your oil. If needed, they will
> expound on the remarks if you contact them for more info. This is
> a genuine American family business.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] The problem with modern oils [message #106873 is a reply to message #106801] |
Sat, 27 November 2010 08:36 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Steve, there seems to be a disconnect with this one sided discussion
on oil, when all the after market cam manufactures are warning of the
problem as they see it. They have educated metallurgist and
engineers to back up their claims, The three ball test is one of the
items you would think that he would site when making the statement on
oil additives. He just gave his non technical opinion about with his
experience, not a test with for standard oil testing.
I think testing your is a good thing if you have a good testing Lab,
but his statements or paper was out of line with out proof.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com> wrote:
> A darn good outfit!
> I am very suspicious of the oil change intervals on the new vehicles. My
> first oil change on the new Colorado pickup was supposed to be at 10K. I
> dumped it at 3K and sent a sample to Blackstone. I got the results back
> with a personal note saying that I did the right thing and that oil was very
> due to be changed.
>
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
>
>> Last month I sent in the first sample from the Cad500. When they did the
>> analysis the numbers looked suspicious so the technician actually called me
>> to discuss them. I hadn't made it clear that the engine had just been
>> overhauled so some of the intitial break-in results were out of line with
>> those for a long-used engine..
>>
>> I really appreciated them being conscientious enough to make the call.
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Roger Black <r1black@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > ...Note the remarks section on each one. This is a plain English
>> > description of what's going on with your oil. If needed, they will
>> > expound on the remarks if you contact them for more info. This is
>> > a genuine American family business.
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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