Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Garton's Down in UT (engine out)
| Garton's Down in UT [message #103087] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 15:44  |
Frank Condos
Messages: 90
Registered: March 2004
Karma: 0
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Chuck and Dorris Garton are down with a blown engine in Monticello UT. Things are under control. Jim K is getting an engine ready, They are at a shop that will do the work under Chucks supervision.
I shipped my interior lift frame to drop it out the bottom.
To any one in the vicinity or passing through I'm sure they would like a little company. Monticello is about 50 mi south of Moab which also is in the middle of nowhere.
Frank Condos
Franks Folly
Ahwahnee, CA
Chucks cell is 1-760-271-0205
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| Re: Garton's Down in UT [message #103116 is a reply to message #103087] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 20:08  |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| Frank Condos wrote on Fri, 15 October 2010 13:44 |
... Monticello is about 50 mi south of Moab which also is in the middle of nowhere. ...
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I just recovered a coach from Moab. While it has very pretty scenery, it is not a good place to be broke down. On Friday afternoon, when looking for a mechanical fuel pump I was told by 3 of 4 parts stores, "We can not even order it until next week." (The last store had already closed.)
I left town using an electric pump.
Moral of the story: Even if you think a part MIGHT be needed... ship it in as soon as possible. It is MUCH easier to NOT use something you have than it is to USE something you do NOT have! (Parts can be returned later.)
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103132 is a reply to message #103087] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 23:25 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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I talked to Chuck earlier while he was riding down the highway on the hook.
Coolant in the water, could be bad or could be a dropped seat etc. At
150,000 plus, it was not unexpected. He just might make it to GMCWS!
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Frank Condos <fcondos@sti.net> wrote:
>
>
> Chuck and Dorris Garton are down with a blown engine in Monticello UT.
> Things are under control. Jim K is getting an engine ready, They are at a
> shop that will do the work under Chucks supervision.
> I shipped my interior lift frame to drop it out the bottom.
>
> To any one in the vicinity or passing through I'm sure they would like a
> little company. Monticello is about 50 mi south of Moab which also is in
> the middle of nowhere.
>
> Frank Condos
> Franks Folly
> Ahwahnee, CA
>
> Chucks cell is 1-760-271-0205
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
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Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103139 is a reply to message #103138] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 07:23 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Yes,
That is what I meant. We may not get a diagnosis as this is going to be
done as quickly as possible. Chuck was on his way to the GMCWS rally in Las
Vegas and that starts today. I believe he was pulling the I-70 grade to the
tunnel when his oil temp skyrocketed and the motor started knocking.
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sat, 16 October 2010 00:25
> > I talked to Chuck earlier while he was riding down the highway on the
> hook.
> > Coolant in the water, could be bad or could be a dropped seat etc. At
> 150,000 plus, it was not unexpected. He just might make it to GMCWS!
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
>
> Parity Error!!!
> Please reenter data.
>
> Human response. . .
> I bet you intended to say coolant in the lube oil.
> Could the fact that you wrote this just a little after midnight be part of
> the problem?
> A dropped seat is bad as it will often destroy a piston leaving the wrist
> pin to reek havoc on the cylinder liner, but an unlikely case alone as a
> properly installed seat does not break into the cooling jacket.
>
> I'll wait for the real diagnosis.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
> _______________________________________________
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Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103155 is a reply to message #103138] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 11:19 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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I know when our hard seat dropped, it took the block that had every
trick done to the block.
It really is disappointing after you had all that work done to it.
I find it hard to believe that the hard seat penetrated the water
jacket, as a rule you only go deep enough but not int the water
jacket.
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sat, 16 October 2010 00:25
>> I talked to Chuck earlier while he was riding down the highway on the hook.
>> Coolant in the water, could be bad or could be a dropped seat etc. At 150,000 plus, it was not unexpected. He just might make it to GMCWS!
>> --
>> Steve Ferguson
>
> Parity Error!!!
> Please reenter data.
>
> Human response. . .
> I bet you intended to say coolant in the lube oil.
> Could the fact that you wrote this just a little after midnight be part of the problem?
> A dropped seat is bad as it will often destroy a piston leaving the wrist pin to reek havoc on the cylinder liner, but an unlikely case alone as a properly installed seat does not break into the cooling jacket.
>
> I'll wait for the real diagnosis.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103156 is a reply to message #103155] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 11:49 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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The Jasper engine that Buskirk put into my GMC back in 1999 failed when several valve seats leaked into the engine. The rebuilder who then installed new (not rebuilt) J heads said that Jasper had used Chevrolet valve seats and cut them too deeply into the heads and into the water jackets.
There was a lot of other things wrong with that engine including a cracked and welded head, two pistons with higher compression than the other six, other mismatched parts, etc.
Unfortunately the engine didn't fail until one month past the warranty period.
Emery Stora
On Oct 16, 2010, at 10:19 AM, Jim Kanomata wrote:
> I know when our hard seat dropped, it took the block that had every
> trick done to the block.
> It really is disappointing after you had all that work done to it.
> I find it hard to believe that the hard seat penetrated the water
> jacket, as a rule you only go deep enough but not int the water
> jacket.
>
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sat, 16 October 2010 00:25
>>> I talked to Chuck earlier while he was riding down the highway on the hook.
>>> Coolant in the water, could be bad or could be a dropped seat etc. At 150,000 plus, it was not unexpected. He just might make it to GMCWS!
>>> --
>>> Steve Ferguson
>>
>> Parity Error!!!
>> Please reenter data.
>>
>> Human response. . .
>> I bet you intended to say coolant in the lube oil.
>> Could the fact that you wrote this just a little after midnight be part of the problem?
>> A dropped seat is bad as it will often destroy a piston leaving the wrist pin to reek havoc on the cylinder liner, but an unlikely case alone as a properly installed seat does not break into the cooling jacket.
>>
>> I'll wait for the real diagnosis.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie
>> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
>> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103163 is a reply to message #103156] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 13:38 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Emery:
That is a very strong point you made. I got had on a Chevy engine that I had in a Camper some time back that left me broke down 600 miles from home built by a well known boat racer. Since that time I have only used a well respected machine shop for the machine work then did the reassembly and inspection of all parts myself. This way I know what I have. I once had a valve seat installed in a 455 head that was done wrong the crack showed up in the middle of the desert with 20,000 miles on the motor. It was not fun doing the repairs in a campground without being noticed.
Roy
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103167 is a reply to message #103155] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 15:44 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
As I understood it talking with Jerry Potter (after the machine shop in
Houston hit water on one of my heads) the problem with putting valve seats
in Caddy's is that you need one that has a smaller OD than the ones used in
Chevy's and other GM products.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kanomata
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:19 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT
I know when our hard seat dropped, it took the block that had every
trick done to the block.
It really is disappointing after you had all that work done to it.
I find it hard to believe that the hard seat penetrated the water
jacket, as a rule you only go deep enough but not int the water
jacket.
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103200 is a reply to message #103167] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 20:46 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Those hardened seats come in a variety of ID, OD, Depth and material. When
the exhaust valve seats are very severely eroded or in the case of casting
shift which happens sometimes, some machine shops are prone to cut the bores
in the head for the seats larger and deeper just so they can use the same
insert in all the bores. Some heads, 500 cu in Cadillac being one of them do
not have any excess material surrounding the seat area. Olds engines have
the same problem to some degree in the 4 center exhaust pockets. If the
machinist is not familiar with Cad and Olds engines, and they are trying to
meet or exceed flat rate, bad stuff happens. Best advise I can think of is
know your machinist well, caution him about the cad and olds heads and tell
him that he needs to use the smallest OD and shallowest depth seats that
will fit, Not big block Chev, the OD is too large. Just what I learned
running a Tobin Arp cylinder head machine. I used to do a lot of Saab 99
sand cast aluminum heads that the worn out additive package in the anti
freeze solution no longer protected. Electrolysis would be greatest in the
part of the head that was the hottest, under the exhaust valve seat. They
would disintegrate and leak coolant into the combustion chamber. Used to put
them on the milling machine after removing the hard seat and fly cut down to
virgin aluminum, heli-arc the head with compatible aluminum material, recut
the pockets and install new hardened seats, then pressure test. Used to sell
those heads for $750.00 exchange. Real money makers. Can't do that with cast
iron heads, when you hit water, you have some very expensive scrap metal.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Royale 403
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Jim,
>
> As I understood it talking with Jerry Potter (after the machine shop in
> Houston hit water on one of my heads) the problem with putting valve seats
> in Caddy's is that you need one that has a smaller OD than the ones used in
> Chevy's and other GM products.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kanomata
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:19 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT
>
> I know when our hard seat dropped, it took the block that had every
> trick done to the block.
> It really is disappointing after you had all that work done to it.
> I find it hard to believe that the hard seat penetrated the water
> jacket, as a rule you only go deep enough but not int the water
> jacket.
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Garton's Down in UT [message #103225 is a reply to message #103200] |
Sun, 17 October 2010 08:07 |
Surbo
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Sat, 16 October 2010 20:46 |
Those hardened seats come in a variety of ID, OD, Depth and material. When
the exhaust valve seats are very severely eroded or in the case of casting
shift which happens sometimes, some machine shops are prone to cut the bores
in the head for the seats larger and deeper just so they can use the same
insert in all the bores. Some heads, 500 cu in Cadillac being one of them do
not have any excess material surrounding the seat area. Olds engines have
the same problem to some degree in the 4 center exhaust pockets. If the
machinist is not familiar with Cad and Olds engines, and they are trying to
meet or exceed flat rate, bad stuff happens. Best advise I can think of is
know your machinist well, caution him about the cad and olds heads and tell
him that he needs to use the smallest OD and shallowest depth seats that
will fit, Not big block Chev, the OD is too large. Just what I learned
running a Tobin Arp cylinder head machine. I used to do a lot of Saab 99
sand cast aluminum heads that the worn out additive package in the anti
freeze solution no longer protected. Electrolysis would be greatest in the
part of the head that was the hottest, under the exhaust valve seat. They
would disintegrate and leak coolant into the combustion chamber. Used to put
them on the milling machine after removing the hard seat and fly cut down to
virgin aluminum, heli-arc the head with compatible aluminum material, recut
the pockets and install new hardened seats, then pressure test. Used to sell
those heads for $750.00 exchange. Real money makers. Can't do that with cast
iron heads, when you hit water, you have some very expensive scrap metal.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Royale 403
|
Jim;
A great explanation of what happens to milling heads. We had three J heads that with casting shift. The #1 thru #3 exhaust ports (counting from the left) were OK, when we got to #4, there was hardly any cast material on the exhaust port side, lots of cast on the intake side. If the casting shift had been towards the intake port, everything would have been OK for the exhaust insert. Interesting to see the material coming off the cutter, bright & shiny, good stuff. When the grey material shows up, it's all over!
Here is a pic of the sad news. http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=36415&title=j-heads-2c-casting-shift&cat=500
http://tinyurl.com/2dutsnc
Bob Drewes in SESD
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