Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. (Comparing Wayne's Coach Steering to Mine)
| Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97049] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 18:33  |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I've driven my 1976 Palm Beach more than 70,000 miles in the past eight years and have never been happy with the steering.
Within the past 3 years the following repairs have been completed:
New Relay lever, new kyb shocks, adjust steering box, replaced upper and lower control arms, bushings, and ball joints, front end alignment, rebuilt steering column and replaced all bearings. Reset front ride height to factory specs, Monitor rear ride height and try to keep it at spec, Alcoa Hotshots, new Bridgestones and then new BFG Commercial TA after I wore out the Bridgestones.
All the work has been done by professional GMC shops.
I think we have done everything except replace the steering box and power steering pump.
The coach drives much better now but it still is not right:
It takes more "effort" to turn the wheel than it should,
It seems that I have to keep a constant slight pressure to the left to keep it in the lane.
If I make a slight correction and release the wheel it doesn't seem to self correct back to center.
It still seems to wander back and forth in the lane making it difficult to relax and look at the scenery.
None of these things are noticeable around town on local streets at slower speeds or on rural roads but once you're up to hiway speed and drive for a while the faults become apparent,
By contrast I drove Wayne's new coach 5000+/- miles from California to New York and although his steering wheel has about the same amount of play as mine(not much) It seemed to be easier to control.
It required less effort on the wheel to turn, did not require constant left pressure to keep straight and it seemed to return to center better than mine.
My wife even commented that we didn't seem to wander between the lines as much as in our coach.
All I know about Wayne's steering components is that he has Alcoa Classics and BFG Commercial TA tires inflated to 65 lbs all around.
I would like to be able to relax and enjoy the scenery no have to concentrate so intensely on the driving.
All suggestions will be appreciated
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97050 is a reply to message #97049] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 18:43  |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| gbarrow wrote on Tue, 24 August 2010 16:33 |
...
It still seems to wander back and forth in the lane making it difficult to relax and look at the scenery.
....
My wife even commented that we didn't seem to wander between the lines as much as in our coach.
....
All suggestions will be appreciated
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For this problem... How tight are your rear boggie pins? Loose ones act like castors. (ie: Ever push a shopping cart backwards?)
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97064 is a reply to message #97049] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 19:14 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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| gbarrow wrote on Tue, 24 August 2010 19:33 |
I've driven my 1976 Palm Beach more than 70,000 miles in the past eight years and have never been happy with the steering.
Within the past 3 years the following repairs have been completed:
New Relay lever, new kyb shocks, adjust steering box, replaced upper and lower control arms, bushings, and ball joints, front end alignment, rebuilt steering column and replaced all bearings. Reset front ride height to factory specs, Monitor rear ride height and try to keep it at spec, Alcoa Hotshots, new Bridgestones and then new BFG Commercial TA after I wore out the Bridgestones.
All the work has been done by professional GMC shops.
I think we have done everything except replace the steering box and power steering pump.
The coach drives much better now but it still is not right:
It takes more "effort" to turn the wheel than it should,
It seems that I have to keep a constant slight pressure to the left to keep it in the lane.
If I make a slight correction and release the wheel it doesn't seem to self correct back to center.
It still seems to wander back and forth in the lane making it difficult to relax and look at the scenery.
None of these things are noticeable around town on local streets at slower speeds or on rural roads but once you're up to hiway speed and drive for a while the faults become apparent,
By contrast I drove Wayne's new coach 5000+/- miles from California to New York and although his steering wheel has about the same amount of play as mine(not much) It seemed to be easier to control.
It required less effort on the wheel to turn, did not require constant left pressure to keep straight and it seemed to return to center better than mine.
My wife even commented that we didn't seem to wander between the lines as much as in our coach.
All I know about Wayne's steering components is that he has Alcoa Classics and BFG Commercial TA tires inflated to 65 lbs all around.
I would like to be able to relax and enjoy the scenery no have to concentrate so intensely on the driving.
All suggestions will be appreciated
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Sir:
You did not mention the idler arm??
maybe check the intermediate rod for paralleism with the front axle. X7625 3A-2
maybe check the steering box for center. http://www.gmceast.com/GMCMH%20Steering%20Box%20watermark%20KH.pdf
With the coach pulling to the right it could be uneven air pressure or rear wheels out of alignment. This is fairly common for rf rear to be bent in from hitting curbs. It also could be the front end alignment. If the coach drives straight in the fast lane but pulls to the right in the slow lane you need about 1/2 degree of camber more in the right side to compensate for the road crown. To go down the road straight you need 3-4 degrees + caster. Usually you have to put an of-set bushing in the top a-arm in the rear position.
http://www.gmcmidwestclassics.org/Web%20pages/align.htm
Hope this helps..
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97066 is a reply to message #97049] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 19:21 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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You mentioned that you had your steering gear adjusted, but all the symptoms point to a "too tight" on center setting. It will cause everything you have mentioned. Not saying that's it, but sure sounds familiar.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97067 is a reply to message #97049] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 19:22 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
In reading your post I see where the wheel alignment is listed before
getting the ride height set. If this is wrong, disregard, but if that
is the order of things, you need to do the alignment after ride height
is set. Also, most alignment shops do not realize that ride height
has to be maintained during the alignment procedure.
Question: Did you install offset bushings in the upper control arms?
Do you have the numbers for caster, camber and toe available for publishing?
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:33 PM, gene barrow <barrowgene@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've driven my 1976 Palm Beach more than 70,000 miles in the past eight years and have never been happy with the steering.
> Within the past 3 years the following repairs have been completed:
>
> New Relay lever, new kyb shocks, adjust steering box, replaced upper and lower control arms, bushings, and ball joints, front end alignment, rebuilt steering column and replaced all bearings. Reset front ride height to factory specs, Monitor rear ride height and try to keep it at spec, Alcoa Hotshots, new Bridgestones and then new BFG Commercial TA after I wore out the Bridgestones.
> All the work has been done by professional GMC shops.
>
> I think we have done everything except replace the steering box and power steering pump.
>
> The coach drives much better now but it still is not right:
>
> It takes more "effort" to turn the wheel than it should,
>
> It seems that I have to keep a constant slight pressure to the left to keep it in the lane.
>
> If I make a slight correction and release the wheel it doesn't seem to self correct back to center.
>
> It still seems to wander back and forth in the lane making it difficult to relax and look at the scenery.
>
> None of these things are noticeable around town on local streets at slower speeds or on rural roads but once you're up to hiway speed and drive for a while the faults become apparent,
>
> By contrast I drove Wayne's new coach 5000+/- miles from California to New York and although his steering wheel has about the same amount of play as mine(not much) It seemed to be easier to control.
> It required less effort on the wheel to turn, did not require constant left pressure to keep straight and it seemed to return to center better than mine.
>
> My wife even commented that we didn't seem to wander between the lines as much as in our coach.
>
> All I know about Wayne's steering components is that he has Alcoa Classics and BFG Commercial TA tires inflated to 65 lbs all around.
>
> I would like to be able to relax and enjoy the scenery no have to concentrate so intensely on the driving.
>
> All suggestions will be appreciated
>
>
> --
> Gene Barrow
> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> 1976 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97071 is a reply to message #97064] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 19:32 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Sir:
You did not mention the idler arm??
maybe check the intermediate rod for paralleism with the front axle. X7625 3A-2
maybe check the steering box for center. http://www.gmceast.com/GMCMH%20Steering%20Box%20watermark%20KH.pdf
With the coach pulling to the right it could be uneven air pressure or rear wheels out of alignment. This is fairly common for rf rear to be bent in from hitting curbs. It also could be the front end alignment. If the coach drives straight in the fast lane but pulls to the right in the slow lane you need about 1/2 degree of camber more in the right side to compensate for the road crown. To go down the road straight you need 3-4 degrees + caster. Usually you have to put an of-set bushing in the top a-arm in the rear position.
http://www.gmcmidwestclassics.org/Web%20pages/align.htm
Hope this helps..[/quote]
Me again: lets back up to basics before we go ahead. Ride height and weight distribution will have a huge impact on how the coach drives and rides. The best way I have found is to block up the rear of the coach at ride height with the air bags deflated. Then set the front ride height. Remove the blocks and adjust rear ride height. I fought a handling issue for years, throwing parts at it. After I adjusted the front ride height to have equal weight it vastly improved everstuff else I had done. When We adjusted mine at Bean Station we had portable scales and I ended up with 125lb difference and the lf was a little high. When we put it back on the ground the rr was low since the lf was high til I set the rear and the air bag raised and pushed the lf down to specs. I did have to extend the right leveling valve arm to get enough adjustment.
Hope this helps..
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97082 is a reply to message #97067] |
Tue, 24 August 2010 20:14 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=Steven Ferguson wrote on Tue, 24 August 2010 20:22]Gene,
In reading your post I see where the wheel alignment is listed before
getting the ride height set. If this is wrong, disregard, but if that
is the order of things, you need to do the alignment after ride height
is set. Also, most alignment shops do not realize that ride height
has to be maintained during the alignment procedure.
Question: Did you install offset bushings in the upper control arms?
Do you have the numbers for caster, camber and toe available for publishing?
Excellent point Steve. After I got my ride height & weight set the coach was driving very good but it started wearing the LF tire(the one that got the most adjustment) in 500 miles . I did not get it re-aligned after setting so I did the off-set bushings and hope to have it aligned this week.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97121 is a reply to message #97049] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 07:07 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Thanks to all for the suggestions.
Many of these ideas have been checked, some have not; I'll follow up and report back.
Alignment was done immediately after the control arms and bushings were replaced. I assume the ride height was set to correct specs after the install. Offset bushings were not used. This was done a couple of years ago.
We reset the ride height again early this year. It required some adjustment. Did not have it realigned after resetting the front ride height.
I have never had the coach weighed.
If I go to a local truck scale on a slow day can I get each corner weighed?
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97130 is a reply to message #97121] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 08:28 |
Charles
Messages: 455
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
I was unable to find any truck weigh places in the
Dallas, Ft woth, TX area that could or would weigh
single wheels. Alex Serum has brought singe wheel
scales to international rallies on several occasions
and weighs coaches for no fee. If it had not been
for this I don't know where a person can get their
coach weighed. I also once stopped at one of the
State road side truck weigh stations here in TX
and tried to get single wheel weight. The guy told
me he could not do that and he really wasn't suppose
to weigh my coach at all. I suggest you contact
Alex Serum and see if he can help you.
Charles
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Charles Wersal
Duncanville, Texas
26 foot 1975 Glenbrook
Pandora's Box
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97139 is a reply to message #97130] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 09:46 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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| Charles wrote on Wed, 25 August 2010 09:28 |
Gene,
I was unable to find any truck weigh places in the
Dallas, Ft woth, TX area that could or would weigh
single wheels. Alex Serum has brought singe wheel
scales to international rallies on several occasions
and weighs coaches for no fee. If it had not been
for this I don't know where a person can get their
coach weighed. I also once stopped at one of the
State road side truck weigh stations here in TX
and tried to get single wheel weight. The guy told
me he could not do that and he really wasn't suppose
to weigh my coach at all. I suggest you contact
Alex Serum and see if he can help you.
Charles
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
Sir: many places that load big trucks have scales.. concrete plants, scrap yards, Household moving Van Lines, steel suppliers, etc.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97223 is a reply to message #97049] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 19:36 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Sometimes, we have been fooled by the tie rods that seeem to test out good.
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:33 PM, gene barrow <barrowgene@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've driven my 1976 Palm Beach more than 70,000 miles in the past eight
> years and have never been happy with the steering.
> Within the past 3 years the following repairs have been completed:
>
> New Relay lever, new kyb shocks, adjust steering box, replaced upper and
> lower control arms, bushings, and ball joints, front end alignment, rebuilt
> steering column and replaced all bearings. Reset front ride height to
> factory specs, Monitor rear ride height and try to keep it at spec, Alcoa
> Hotshots, new Bridgestones and then new BFG Commercial TA after I wore out
> the Bridgestones.
> All the work has been done by professional GMC shops.
>
> I think we have done everything except replace the steering box and power
> steering pump.
>
> The coach drives much better now but it still is not right:
>
> It takes more "effort" to turn the wheel than it should,
>
> It seems that I have to keep a constant slight pressure to the left to keep
> it in the lane.
>
> If I make a slight correction and release the wheel it doesn't seem to self
> correct back to center.
>
> It still seems to wander back and forth in the lane making it difficult to
> relax and look at the scenery.
>
> None of these things are noticeable around town on local streets at slower
> speeds or on rural roads but once you're up to hiway speed and drive for a
> while the faults become apparent,
>
> By contrast I drove Wayne's new coach 5000+/- miles from California to New
> York and although his steering wheel has about the same amount of play as
> mine(not much) It seemed to be easier to control.
> It required less effort on the wheel to turn, did not require constant left
> pressure to keep straight and it seemed to return to center better than
> mine.
>
> My wife even commented that we didn't seem to wander between the lines as
> much as in our coach.
>
> All I know about Wayne's steering components is that he has Alcoa Classics
> and BFG Commercial TA tires inflated to 65 lbs all around.
>
> I would like to be able to relax and enjoy the scenery no have to
> concentrate so intensely on the driving.
>
> All suggestions will be appreciated
>
>
> --
> Gene Barrow
> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> 1976 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97228 is a reply to message #97049] |
Wed, 25 August 2010 20:16 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I think we have done everything except replace the steering box and power
> steering pump.
>
> The coach drives much better now but it still is not right:
>
> It takes more "effort" to turn the wheel than it should,
>
> It seems that I have to keep a constant slight pressure to the left to keep
> it in the lane.
>
> If I make a slight correction and release the wheel it doesn't seem to self
> correct back to center.
""
I don't want to push this too hard, but even though you got a lot of good suggestions, they don't address the "stickiness" on center. I have run into this many many times as a development engineer and on my own coach as well. If the on-center adjustment is tight, it will stick and wander excessively regardless of the state of the other components and ride height or even alignment. There is plenty of evidence that moderate slop or clearance in the system can still allow a great handling coach. Most replacement steering gears are not adjusted correctly. The most common problem is incorrect pitman arm end play. There's something you can try and return to original setting very easily to see if it works. Locate the side cover on the steering gear, with the appropriate allen wrench in the adjustmant screw, loosen the locknut while firmly preventing the adjusting screw from turning. Then back off the adjusting screw 1/4 of a turn (counter clockwise)and retighten the lock nut while firmly holding the adjustment screw from turning. Take it for a drive and see what you think. If it isn't better, just reverse the procedure to return it to initial adjustment. It's free, takes 20 minutes, and is reversible.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Issues--Need Suggestions-Long and Boring. [message #97266 is a reply to message #97223] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 07:30 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jim and I are one on this. If you think your tie rods are in good
condition with the age and mileage tolls on these coaches, you need to
disconnect one and check it. Do not be surprised if there is slop in
the center position, there always is. These parts were not made to
last forever and they don't.
Do it right. Bite the bullet and replace them. I will be giving my
last seminar on front suspension issues at GMCWS Las Vegas and will
have samples to pass around that clearly show the excess wear in the
center position. (Last for this topic as I have been giving it for 3
years now.)
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sometimes, we have been fooled by the tie rods that seeem to test out good.
>
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:33 PM, gene barrow <barrowgene@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've driven my 1976 Palm Beach more than 70,000 miles in the past eight
>> years and have never been happy with the steering.
>> Within the past 3 years the following repairs have been completed:
>>
>> New Relay lever, new kyb shocks, adjust steering box, replaced upper and
>> lower control arms, bushings, and ball joints, front end alignment, rebuilt
>> steering column and replaced all bearings. Reset front ride height to
>> factory specs, Monitor rear ride height and try to keep it at spec, Alcoa
>> Hotshots, new Bridgestones and then new BFG Commercial TA after I wore out
>> the Bridgestones.
>> All the work has been done by professional GMC shops.
>>
>> I think we have done everything except replace the steering box and power
>> steering pump.
>>
>> The coach drives much better now but it still is not right:
>>
>> It takes more "effort" to turn the wheel than it should,
>>
>> It seems that I have to keep a constant slight pressure to the left to keep
>> it in the lane.
>>
>> If I make a slight correction and release the wheel it doesn't seem to self
>> correct back to center.
>>
>> It still seems to wander back and forth in the lane making it difficult to
>> relax and look at the scenery.
>>
>> None of these things are noticeable around town on local streets at slower
>> speeds or on rural roads but once you're up to hiway speed and drive for a
>> while the faults become apparent,
>>
>> By contrast I drove Wayne's new coach 5000+/- miles from California to New
>> York and although his steering wheel has about the same amount of play as
>> mine(not much) It seemed to be easier to control.
>> It required less effort on the wheel to turn, did not require constant left
>> pressure to keep straight and it seemed to return to center better than
>> mine.
>>
>> My wife even commented that we didn't seem to wander between the lines as
>> much as in our coach.
>>
>> All I know about Wayne's steering components is that he has Alcoa Classics
>> and BFG Commercial TA tires inflated to 65 lbs all around.
>>
>> I would like to be able to relax and enjoy the scenery no have to
>> concentrate so intensely on the driving.
>>
>> All suggestions will be appreciated
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gene Barrow
>> Lake Almanor, Ca.
>> 1976 Palm Beach
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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