Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur
| [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95289] |
Tue, 10 August 2010 22:26  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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After having been very careful in the assembly of my Cad500, I STILL built
in an oil leak. I thought when I ran the 1/16" bead of blue RTV along every
section of the gasket for the timing chain cover that I'd ensured an
oil-tight seal. NOT SO. in one section, no more than 1", a persistent leak
developed. That area of the gasket does narrow to about 1/4", but there
should be little pressure on it -- only crankcase pressure/vacuum and splash
from the timing chain.
I'd sure hate to have to R&R the darned thing again, so WHAT should I use on
the gasket this time? I'm inclined toward old fashoned #2 Permatex. Anyone
have a better idea?
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
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Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95305 is a reply to message #95289] |
Wed, 11 August 2010 07:02  |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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is it possible to loosen the bolts and work some goo into the leak area and tighten it back up? i know it's a long shot but may be worth a try.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95307 is a reply to message #95305] |
Wed, 11 August 2010 07:14 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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No, Fred, it's been torn down for a week. True to my form, the leak was
within the single 1-1/2" area, behind the WP inlet, that cannot be seen or
touched with the WP installed. Once the WP is off, might as well remove the
true culprit.
Ken H.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:02 AM, fred veenschoten <fredntoni@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> is it possible to loosen the bolts and work some goo into the leak area and
> tighten it back up? i know it's a long shot but may be worth a try.
>
> --
>
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95317 is a reply to message #95289] |
Wed, 11 August 2010 08:51 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 10 August 2010 23:26 |
After having been very careful in the assembly of my Cad500, I STILL built in an oil leak. I thought when I ran the 1/16" bead of blue RTV along every section of the gasket for the timing chain cover that I'd ensured an oil-tight seal. NOT SO. in one section, no more than 1", a persistent leak developed. That area of the gasket does narrow to about 1/4", but there
should be little pressure on it -- only crankcase pressure/vacuum and splash from the timing chain.
I'd sure hate to have to R&R the darned thing again, so WHAT should I use on the gasket this time? I'm inclined toward old fashioned #2 Permatex. Anyone have a better idea?
Ken H.
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Ken,
I am no Cadillac 500 expert, but I was the aftermarket engineer for McCord Gasket for five years. I am working from old memory here and hope I have this correct.
The timing cover is a flat plate that covers a timing gear pocket that is a cast feature on the from face of the block. (Am I right so far?)
The problem with the flat covers is that they are flat. (Wow - what an amazing insight.) The problem with a thin - flat cover is that any distortion will cause a loss of local clamp load on the sealing element (gasket). Even a few thousandths of an inch can completely unload the gasket in a small area.
Now comes a problem, I hate to bond a gasket on both surfaces because any movement in the joint, either engine flex (often as vibration) or thermal - Thermal can be a killer - will cause the gasket material to be sheared. That may be what you have to do, but do so carefully and with your normal attention to detail.
If you want to try this, (again, I don't know the Cad 500) this is what you have to do:
With all the parts clean and dry, put a bead of sealant of your choice on the edge of the cover. More than a 16th won't hurt.
Set the paper gasket on that bead.
Put another bead on the gasket surface.
While still wet (that is why this is called a wet assembly), put the cover in place and tighten to finger tight only. Sealant should squeeze out, but not very much.
Now wait . . .Wait until the exposed material feels cured - at the very least - no tack at all.
Now you can pull the fasteners to tension (tighten them). Do not over tighten them.
What you will have done is create a new gasket that has clamp load on its entire surface, regardless of the condition of the fit. It will be a BEAR to disassemble.
If you want to be able to disassemble the parts without a hammer and chisel, forget the bead on the paper and smear just a little grease on the block surface. With the clamp load where it belongs in the final assembly, it will not leak, but it may seep. It will have more sense of humor about joint movement.
Permatex 2 is good, but but it does cure hard and will shear a paper gasket. You need the gasket there because of the seal location and the pan edge seal. An RTV is better for that reason alone.
If it were in production today, the plant would probably use and anaerobic sealant. These work, but they tend to be hard to handle in a casual shop and expensive.
Good Luck Guy
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95337 is a reply to message #95289] |
Wed, 11 August 2010 14:17 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 10 August 2010 22:26 |
After having been very careful in the assembly of my Cad500, I STILL built
in an oil leak.
I'd sure hate to have to R&R the darned thing again, so WHAT should I use on
the gasket this time? I'm inclined toward old fashoned #2 Permatex. Anyone
have a better idea?
Ken H.
|
When assembling my 500, I too was just anal about gasketing (is that a word?) and leaks, only to find that I still had several. So, I spent quite a bit of time trying to seal those leaks. One of them I just have not been able to seal up...at the front main bearing seal, and again around the trans pan. I finally decided that it was not worth the trouble and headache, after all, its a 32 yr old vehicle that just does not have the gasketing technology that new cars have. Now I rationalize. Engine only takes a quart of oil every 3K miles or so. Most of that is out the tail pipe....the rest is seal coating the undercarriage of my coach and helping prevent rust from occurring in this...the salt and rust belt of the US. I just figure I got better things to worry about that a little leak....like my new paint job. Did I tell you that I picked it up from Topeka last Tuesday? Well, going out the service road after a rain, I ran an obstacle coarse trying to miss all of the puddles. Got to the main road....now this is Amish country. I turned on to the main road and within the first 100 yards ran over two piles of Horse Hockey! The spent the next four hours running in the rain. So much for being anal about my paint. We both survived.
Point being....sometimes there's a point when ya just gotta let it go.... JMHO
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95338 is a reply to message #95289] |
Wed, 11 August 2010 14:22 |
William Vander Wall
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2007
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Blue RTV for water, Ultra Black RTV for oil.
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> After having been very careful in the assembly of my Cad500, I STILL built
> in an oil leak. I thought when I ran the 1/16" bead of blue RTV along
> every
> section of the gasket for the timing chain cover that I'd ensured an
> oil-tight seal. NOT SO. in one section, no more than 1", a persistent
> leak
> developed. That area of the gasket does narrow to about 1/4", but there
> should be little pressure on it -- only crankcase pressure/vacuum and
> splash
> from the timing chain.
>
> I'd sure hate to have to R&R the darned thing again, so WHAT should I use
> on
> the gasket this time? I'm inclined toward old fashoned #2 Permatex.
> Anyone
> have a better idea?
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95380 is a reply to message #95363] |
Wed, 11 August 2010 18:48 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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| g.winger wrote on Wed, 11 August 2010 16:50 |
Larry, thats just mean, not putting up a link for photos,,, but I,m happy for you. Any chance that new paint will be at Duquoin????
|
You bet-cha!! I got pics, just gotta post them. Had knee surgery this morning...moving a little slow...but life is good!!
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95720 is a reply to message #95317] |
Fri, 13 August 2010 18:12 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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OK, yesterday I finally started putting the Cad500 back together.
Since the Indian Head shellac suggested by Chuck Boyd was hard as a rock & I
didn't want to wait to replace the alcohol, I followed Bob Drewes' Ultra
Black recommendation, using Matt Colie's wet installation technique.
Lots of fun with all that sticky stuff everywhere and the necessity to do
the impossible installation of the front plate onto the rubber front pan
seal. With the oil slinger cup inside the chain cover interfering every
step of the way, and the partially re-extended locating dowels refusing to
go into their holes, it was LOTS of fun! But I THINK I got it all together
without destroying the gasket or the integrity of the RTV bead. Only time
will tell. It's asking a lot to try to stop a leak in this way that wasn't
prevented when the engine was assembled correctly on a stand. But that's
what we sometimes have to try.
Unless I've got an even worse situation now, I'll be following Larry's
philosophy: Not everything can be perfect -- Live with it. :-)
The oversize pushrods arrived some time this week -- SHE found them today at
the never-used front door where FedEx insists on leaving them despite the
fact that it's obvious no one ever uses it. I should be able to get them
installed and the engine running again tomorrow.
Thanks for all the sealing suggestions.
Ken H.
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
> I am no Cadillac 500 expert, but I was the aftermarket engineer for McCord
> Gasket for five years. I am working from old memory here and hope I have
> this correct.
>
> The timing cover is a flat plate that covers a timing gear pocket that is a
> cast feature on the from face of the block. (Am I right so far?)
>
> The problem with the flat covers is that they are flat. (Wow - what an
> amazing insight.) The problem with a thin - flat cover is that any
> distortion will cause a loss of local clamp load on the sealing element
> (gasket). Even a few thousandths of an inch can completely unload the
> gasket in a small area...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95725 is a reply to message #95721] |
Fri, 13 August 2010 18:39 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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"3/8ths"??? Ohh--you mean 3/8" OD pushrods? No, when I said oversize, I
was referring to the 0.030" longer rods to avoid having to mill the rocker
pedestals to get my preloads back in spec. Guess I should have said
"over-length". :-)
Ken H.
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Paul Leavitt <leavittpaul@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Did you go with the 3/8ths???? and why???,,,PL
> _______________________________________________
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95742 is a reply to message #95337] |
Fri, 13 August 2010 20:03 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""When assembling my 500, I too was just anal about gasketing (is that a word?) and leaks, only to find that I still had several. So, I spent quite a bit of time trying to seal those leaks. One of them I just have not been able to seal up...at the front main bearing seal, and again around the trans pan. I finally decided that it was not worth the trouble and headache, after all, its a 32 yr old vehicle that just does not have the gasketing technology that new cars have. Now I rationalize. Engine only takes a quart of oil every 3K miles or so. ""
Well it may be 32 years old, but seems to be doing better than many Northstar's. Maybe it is just a Cadillac trademark
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95933 is a reply to message #95932] |
Sun, 15 August 2010 14:59 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
Thanks for your input, even though I've already reassembled the timing chain
cover (without finding any reason for the original leak). I abandoned my
first inclination to use #2 Permatex in favor of the Ultra Black
recommendations of others. Everything was as oil free as lacquer thinner
can make it.
I'll consider myself VERY lucky if I don't have an even worse leak now,
because the correct way to install that cover is BEFORE the oil pan is
installed. That's not possible without removing at least the transmission
and final drive, so I did it the "shade tree" way, which is fraught with
leak possibilities.
Keep your fingers crossed for me when I crank it up in a couple of days. :-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 3:47 PM, James Moore <j.moore.jr@mindspring.com>wrote:
> Ken,
> There are two types of blue RTV. There is regular blue RTV which will not
> bond to oily surfaces and Ultra Blue (Black, Red, Etc.) which will stick to
> oily surfaces.
>
> #2 permatex is an excellent sealant and is preferred in my business (steam
> turbine repair) over rtv for oil joints...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95937 is a reply to message #95932] |
Sun, 15 August 2010 16:33 |
 |
mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| James Moore wrote on Sun, 15 August 2010 12:47 |
... I have also seen gaskets with rtv on them extrude out of the joint when tightened. ...
|
When using RTV type products, put parts together just tight enough to hold everything aligned (finger tight, maybe slightly more) equally all the way around. Wait for the RTV to set. Several hours to overnight. THEN tighten to specs.
Not the best option if you do not have lots of time.
Just what seems to work for me.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95985 is a reply to message #95933] |
Sun, 15 August 2010 15:28 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:59 PM, Ken Henderson wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Thanks for your input, even though I've already reassembled the timing chain
> cover (without finding any reason for the original leak). I abandoned my
> first inclination to use #2 Permatex in favor of the Ultra Black
> recommendations of others. Everything was as oil free as lacquer thinner
> can make it.
>
> I'll consider myself VERY lucky if I don't have an even worse leak now,
> because the correct way to install that cover is BEFORE the oil pan is
> installed. That's not possible without removing at least the transmission
> and final drive, so I did it the "shade tree" way, which is fraught with
> leak possibilities.
>
> Keep your fingers crossed for me when I crank it up in a couple of days. :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
Here is Permatex's lineup:
Permatex High Temp Red RTV
Replaces almost any cut gasket by making reliable “formed-in-place” gaskets that resist cracking, shrinking and migrating caused by thermal cycling. Coats pre-cut gaskets to increase reliability. Temperature range -65ºF to 650ºF (-54°C to 343°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids. First generation 1970-1980 gasket maker.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans
Permatex Sensor Safe Blue RTV
The original Permatex Blue. Will not foul oxygen sensors. Replaces almost any cut gasket. Makes reliable “formed-in-place” gaskets that resist cracking, shrinking and migrating. Coats pre-cut gaskets to increase reliability. Temperature range -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids. First generation 1970-1980 gasket maker.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans
Permatex Sensor-Safe High-Temp RTV Silicone Gasket
Formulated for oxygen sensor equipped engines. First generation 1970-1980 gasket maker. Temperature range of -65°F to 650°F (-54°C to 343°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings, transmission pans
Permatex the Right Stuff Grey Gasket Maker
Specifically designed to perform under higher torque loads caused by engines with closely spaced bolt patterns (typically import vehicles). This product is blowout resistant, allowing leakproof gaskets to be made and put into service in just one minute. Sensor-safe, the Right Stuff® Grey seals instantly, forming a reliable, long lasting elastomeric rubber gasket that outperforms precut gaskets. OEM specified by Honda, Nissan and Mazda. This product is resistant to powertrain fluids (oil, coolant, and ATF) and operates in environments to 450°F (232°C) continuous; 500°F (260°C) intermittent.
Suggested Applications: Automotive gaskets, valve covers, oil pans, transmission pans, thermostat housings, water pumps, etc.
Permatex the Right Stuff Gasket Maker
Return equipment to service immediately when you make leak-proof gaskets in just one minute with the Right Stuff.® This latest elastomeric rubber gasket technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets. Specified on production lines by GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler and Mercedes-Benz. Temperature range -75°F to 450°F (-59°C to 232°C) continuous, 500°F (260°C) intermittent.; resists ATF, coolant, oil and other shop fluids. Protects against leaks caused by vibration and thermal expansion. Sensor-safe.
Suggested Applications: Automotive and marine gaskets, valve covers, gearbox covers, pumps, compressors, oil pans, thermostat housings, water pumps
Permatex Ultra Black Maximum Oil Resistance RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. For dealership warranty requirements, ensures extended drivetrain warranty compliance. Fast-curing formula. Sensor safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Meets performance specs of OE silicone gaskets. Retains high flexibility, oil resistance properties through use of a patented adhesion system. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, intake manifold end seals, timing covers, transmission pans
Permatex Ultra Blue Multipurpose RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. Permatex® Ultra silicones were developed to meet today’s technology changes. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Outstanding oil resistance and joint movement values. Eight times more flexible than cork/composite gaskets; three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, transmission pans, differential covers
Permatex Ultra Copper Maximum Temperature RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. Highest operating temperatures for 4-cylinder, turbocharged or high-performance engines. The most advanced, high temp RTV silicone gasket available. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Superior adhesion. Three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones; eight times more flexible than cut gaskets. Temperature range -75°F to 700°F (-59°C to 371°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.
Suggested Applications: Exhaust manifolds/ headers, valve covers, oil pans, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings
Permatex Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker
OEM specified. Designed specially for high-torque and high vibration applications, like those common in import engines, this premium RTV gasket maker exceeds manufacturers' performance requirements. Noncorrosive and low-odor. Maximum vibration resistance, with outstanding resistance to oils, cooling and shop fluids. Guaranteed not to leak. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent.
Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, intake manifold end seals, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings
Permatex Water Pump & Thermostat RTV Silicone Gasket
A noncorrosive, sensor-safe RTV silicone gasket material formulated specifically for water pumps and thermostat housings. Highest water-glycol resistance available in an RTV silicone. Temperature range of -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent.
Suggested Applications: Water pump and thermostat housings
Permatex the Right Stuff® 1 Minute Gasket
Seals instantly and fits any application. Just torque and go! This handy size package contains enough material to completely replace two or three large cut gaskets with long-lasting, black elastomeric formed-in-place rubber gaskets you custom fit to any shape or size. Ideal for all non-fuel sealing applications, 1 Minute Gasket is superior to most OE gaskets and fleet-tested to be leak-free in more than 5 million miles of heavy commercial use. Protects against leaks caused by vibration and thermal expansion. Temperature range -75°F to 450°F (-59°C to 232°C) continuous, 500°F (260°C) intermittent.; resists ATF, coolant, oil and other shop fluids. Sensor-safe.
Suggested Applications: Automotive and marine gaskets, transmission pans, differential covers, water pumps, thermostats, oil pans and seals, valve covers, gearboxes and more
Permatex Gear Oil RTV Sealant
OEM specified. Specially formulated to withstand the harsh gear oil environment found in differentials and transfer cases. Because gear oil has friction modifiers that break down normal RTV and cause leaking, this specialty silicone has been tested to OEM specifications to ensure complete sealing. As a gasket maker it seeks and seals leak paths that cut gaskets cannot.
Suggested Applications: Differentials and transfer cases
Permatex Automatic Transmission RTV Sealant
OEM specified. Developed with U.S. automotive OEMs and complies with extended warranty requirements. It resists aging, weathering and thermal cycling without hardening, shrinking or cracking. Benefits include improved transmission oil resistance, good adhesion while retaining flexibility, sensor-safe, noncorrosive and can be used as a gasket maker or dressing. Non-flammable, non-toxic, low odor.
Suggested Applications: Automatic transmission pans, cases halves.
This list includes some new ones. I think the last four are fairly new.
NOTE: Other manufacturers are not necessarily the same. I know that another company's blue is not the same as Permatex blue.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dumb Q from Old Amateur [message #95988 is a reply to message #95985] |
Sun, 15 August 2010 21:28 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gittin' almost as bad as trying do decide what size, hook arrangement,
color, sparkle or not, flipper tail or not, etc., for plastic bass worms!
I need to print that out and put it in my wallet -- but it's already too
full of GMC credit card slips. :-(
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> ...
> Here is Permatex's lineup:
>
...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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