Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts
| [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 00:36  |
Mary Duprey
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2010
Karma: 0
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Just wondering if anyone can give me some info on the electrical system of the 76 GMC Palm Beach? Try to plug unit in for power and gfi snaps every time in garage, yet everything runs when generator is on. Owners manual says electrical plug needs to be plugged into box in order to run coach on generator but box is locked and seems to be direct wired. Any suggestions, could be power cord, but looks fine, has different plugin on end with adapter to plug into a regular 3 prong plug.
Also, have new head bolts from ARP for 455 Olds engine, that say to torque to 70 but manual says to torque to 70 and then retorque to 85 anyone had any experience with this, should I torque to 85 as manual says or go with 70 as ARP says?
Any help is truly appreciated.
>Mary>Vermont
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94672 is a reply to message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 01:10  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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The 76 Palm beach came with 50 amp 240 volt service. There is a small service door located on the left side of the coach about 4.5 feet above the ground. Open that door, which is usually locked by the same key as your entrance door, and you should see a big 4 prong plug inserted into to a matching surface mount 4 prong jack.
The jack is mounted on the left side of the cabinet. You unplug that cable there disconnecting the coach from the generator and plug that plug and cable into your shore power connection. If the plug and cable on you coach do not match you shore power service you can buy adapters to 30amp 120 volt and 15/20 amp 120 volt service.
Now if the above is not what you have, then someone in the past has changed stuff around. You will need to tell us exactly what you have for us to be able to help you. Once we know what you have we can go looking for your GFI problem.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94683 is a reply to message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 06:36 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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ARP head bolt torque numbers will be lower than the GM manual IF you use the ARP thread lubricant. GM specs is dipped in motor oil -- ARP is some special moly blend. If the instructions that came with the bolts are not clear, call ARP, as they are most helpful. Too critical to rely on what one of us remembers and writes in a reply.
Dennis Sexton
73 PD 230
Germantown, TN
USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Duprey <marysgmcplace@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, Aug 5, 2010 12:36 am
Subject: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts
Also, have new head bolts from ARP for 455 Olds engine, that say to torque to 70
ut manual says to torque to 70 and then retorque to 85 anyone had any
xperience with this, should I torque to 85 as manual says or go with 70 as ARP
ays?
ny help is truly appreciated.
Mary>Vermont
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MCnet mailing list
ist Information and Subscription Options:
ttp://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94686 is a reply to message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 07:19 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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| Mary Duprey wrote on Thu, 05 August 2010 01:36 |
Just wondering if anyone can give me some info on the electrical system of the 76 GMC Palm Beach? Try to plug unit in for power and gfi snaps every time in garage, yet everything runs when generator is on. Owners manual says electrical plug needs to be plugged into box in order to run coach on generator but box is locked and seems to be direct wired. Any suggestions, could be power cord, but looks fine, has different plugin on end with adapter to plug into a regular 3 prong plug.
Also, have new head bolts from ARP for 455 Olds engine, that say to torque to 70 but manual says to torque to 70 and then retorque to 85 anyone had any experience with this, should I torque to 85 as manual says or go with 70 as ARP says?
Any help is truly appreciated.
>Mary>Vermont
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Mary: When using ARP molly lube, use ARP torque specs. (Joe Mondello Oldsmobile V-8 technical manual)
On my Crestmont the gen is hardwired with a DT DP 30amp switch under the rear bath sink. It looks like a light switch with center off.
I have a diesel fork lift in the barn with a 110V engine heater. If I plug in to a GFI it trips. Does not on a reg plug. My electrician friend says maybe the engine heater has a "leak"??? Anyway maybe try taking the fuse out of the hot water heater and see what happens...
Good Luck....
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94687 is a reply to message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 07:31 |
GMC Cruse
Messages: 606
Registered: June 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Mine did the same thing when I bought it last year. I found the the PO had added an electrical receptacle and tied both the white wire and bare ground wire to the neutral buss bar. The ground wire should have been connected to the separate ground bar. Look in the breaker box for one of the circuits having both the white wire and the bare ground wire connected to the same place.
Mike K.
'75 PB
Southeast Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94688 is a reply to message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 08:19 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Mary,
Messages are free. When you have multiple questions, use as many topics as it takes. It will be easier for the person looking up ARP head bolts or GFI/GFCI problems in the archives to find your thread.
As to the head bolts, you got a good answer. When using ARP bolts with ARP lube (per their instructions) use ARP's torque.
-- Other note on torque. If you can manage, wait a day and go back and crack each fastener loose and pull it back to load. Expect to get as much as a flat (60*) that amounts to free fastener tension that was lost as the system settled. This cannot cause any problem with anything ever and it is free. If the gaskets are expanded graphite or all metal, you may get very little, but if they are composite, you may get more.
As to GFI problems, one more try. Your coach has been worked on ( a Palm Beach should have a 50 amp -4 pin- plug), let's hope it still has a breaker box. Find it.
Open (turn off) all the breakers - even the mains.
Plug in the coach. If the GFI pops, it is in the coach cable.
Close the main(s) If the GFI pops, your problem is in the box.
Close circuits one at a time. When one pops the GFI, you know where to start.
When I do this on boats, I do it just a little differently because I have special instruments. But, if I don't have them that day, this is exactly what I do.
Good Luck
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94721 is a reply to message #94676] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 13:16 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Mary Duprey wrote on Thu, 05 August 2010 01:58 |
Thanks Ken for the input. This is what the manual shows also but, as you said, a PO seems to have changed things. The shore power plug is marked 30 amp and is similar to an electric oven or dryer plug with an adapter making it fit a normal 3 prong extension cord. Will try to get pics and other info posted for some help later.
Thanks, MaryVermont
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OK, We now know what you have for a plug. It is 30amp 120 volt which is common on many RV including Coachman built GMCs. The problem we now have is deciding what you problem is since you connection is not the standard GMC.
Has the standard 4 pin 50 amp plug been completely removed from the coach?
Do you have to remove the 120 volt 30 amp plug from one connection in the coach to plug it into the shore power?
Do you have a non-GFI outlet that you can plug in to. If you do, as a test only, plug into it and see if you have power to the coach. If you do have power then we only need to troubleshoot only why the GFI is tripping.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94727 is a reply to message #94721] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 13:27 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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This is a pretty good place to start:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Hendrickson_House_Electrical_Maint.pdf
<http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Hendrickson_House_Electrical_Maint.pdf>
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Mary Duprey wrote on Thu, 05 August 2010 01:58
> > Thanks Ken for the input. This is what the manual shows also but, as you
> said, a PO seems to have changed things. The shore power plug is marked 30
> amp and is similar to an electric oven or dryer plug with an adapter making
> it fit a normal 3 prong extension cord. Will try to get pics and other info
> posted for some help later.
> > Thanks, MaryVermont
>
> OK, We now know what you have for a plug. It is 30amp 120 volt which is
> common on many RV including Coachman built GMCs. The problem we now have is
> deciding what you problem is since you connection is not the standard GMC...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94765 is a reply to message #94688] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 18:11 |
John Sharpe
Messages: 489
Registered: February 2006
Location: Texas
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Quote: |
Mary wrote:...Just wondering if anyone can give me some info on the electrical system of the 76 GMC Palm Beach? Try to plug unit in for power and gfi snaps every time in garage....
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Matt wrote:...As to GFI problems, one more try. Your coach has been worked on ( a Palm Beach should have a 50 amp -4 pin- plug), let's hope it still has a breaker box. Find it.
Open (turn off) all the breakers - even the mains.
Plug in the coach. If the GFI pops, it is in the coach cable.
Close the main(s) If the GFI pops, your problem is in the box.
Close circuits one at a time. When one pops the GFI, you know where to start.
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Mary, Mine did the same thing. I used Matt's method but disconnected the neutrals and grounds from the circuits. Then connected each circuit back one at a time until I found that the GFI tripped on one of the circuits. Sounds like a lot of testing but there are not very many circuits so it really was not a big problem. What I found was that the circuit with the hot water was the culprit that it tripped the GFI. Turned out a PO had connected the neutral on the heater element to ground inside the hot water heater. I removed this wire and all is well. I am told that this was common practice, back in the day.
John Sharpe
Humble,TX
'78 Eleganza TBI
'89 Spectrum 2000 MPI V-10
'40 Ford Panel Delivery TPI
johnasharpe@gmail.com
[Updated on: Fri, 06 August 2010 12:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94802 is a reply to message #94670] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 23:57 |
zhagrieb
Messages: 676
Registered: August 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Karma: 0
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Very possibly a PO installed an automatic changeover relay. This would eliminate the plug in the cable access box. When the shore cable is plugged in the relay switches the coach wiring to the external connection. Disconnect the cable and the relay connects the coach circuits to the generator.
If you have a 3 prong dryer type plug on the external cable it's possible the PO changed the 50A so he could connect the coach to his dryer circuit.
If you have a GFI that pops you have a circuit grounding problem.
Glenn
Glenn Giere, Portland OR, K7GAG
'73 "Moby the Motorhome" 26'
[Updated on: Thu, 05 August 2010 23:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94881 is a reply to message #94875] |
Fri, 06 August 2010 16:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Mary Duprey wrote on Fri, 06 August 2010 16:20 |
Thanks for all the help. Shut off all the fuses and plugged in to the gfi receptical again, snap even with all the fuses off, but I plugged into a non-gfi and seems to be working fine. Should I be worried? Also, box in shore power access has been changed to a automatic switch and cord has been changed to 30 amp.
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Mary,
Things have been changed, so I would suggest you have someone knowledgeable look a the inside of the transfer switch and confirm that the neutral is not grounded in there. If it is, a GFI will never be happy.
I may also be that you 30Amp cable has been damaged (probably by being run over with a vehicle) and moisture has gotten into it. (I see that occasionally.)
It can also be that the GFI is just too sensitive to long cables. This can happen but it is not very common.
Don't quit until you have a solid answer.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94883 is a reply to message #94881] |
Fri, 06 August 2010 17:07 |
John Sharpe
Messages: 489
Registered: February 2006
Location: Texas
Karma: 1
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| Quote: |
Mary wrote: Thanks for all the help. Shut off all the fuses and plugged in to the gfi receptacle again, snap even with all the fuses off, but I plugged into a non-gfi and seems to be working fine. Should I be worried? Also, box in shore power access has been changed to a automatic switch and cord has been changed to 30 amp.
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Mary,
It would be a good idea to find the problem as you or someone else could get a nasty shock or worse under the right conditions.
It is evident that the problem is not with the load (+)(black wire) circuit but instead with the (-) and ground circuits being connected together at some place. Again the neutral (copper wires) and neutral (white wires) need to be addressed. I agree with RF Burns that the water heater is the most likely source of the problem. Disconnect all the grounds (copper wires) from the buss bar in the breaker box. None of these wires should be connected anywhere in the breaker box to the white wires or the white wire buss bar. Then plug into a gfi plug. If the GFI trips when plugged into the gfi receptacle, then the problem is in the shore power cord or switching device.
Most likely it will not trip. In which case unplug the cord. Attach one of the copper wires back to the buss bar in the breaker box. Plug in the cord. If the GFI trips, then that is the circuit that has the neutral and ground wires connected together whether on purpose or by failure as RF Burns indicates by a failed heater element in the hot water heater. If the GFI does not trip. Unplug the cord and add another ground wire (copper) to the ground buss bar. Plug the cord back in and check out that circuit. etc. etc. etc.......
John Sharpe
Humble,TX
'78 Eleganza TBI
'89 Spectrum 2000 MPI V-10
'40 Ford Panel Delivery TPI
johnasharpe@gmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94914 is a reply to message #94878] |
Sat, 07 August 2010 02:30 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| RF_Burns wrote on Fri, 06 August 2010 16:09 |
I'll stand by my suggestion to check the water heater element.
Remove the wires at the water heater and insulate before plugging it into to GFI to test.
The 1000w elements blow fast if there is not a full water heater and then the element can short to the external metal casing causing a ground fault. Turning off the breaker to it will still cause the GFI to trip if its the problem. Only removing the wires at the element can you tell for sure.
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I totally agree with this recommendation. Just turning off the heater does not remove the potential short between the heating element and ground especially if there is water in the tank. I had one of these GFI failures and it turned out to be a bad heater element.
Never leave the heater element turned on without any water in the tank.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] New owner needs electrical help/gfi snaps + torque for 455 head bolts [message #94919 is a reply to message #94670] |
Sat, 07 August 2010 07:17 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I don't see the issue regarding why Mary needs head bolts. I would never recomend removing the head bolts one at a time, or especially all at once just to replace them with another brand. Unless the heads are coming off for whatever reason leave the bolts alone. However, if the heads are coming off no reason not to use the ARP bolts when the heads go back on.
Dave King( who has had to deal with a broken used head bolt)
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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