| Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93870] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 16:57  |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Just had a friend's coach in my barn to check a problem he is having with the right rear-rear tire. Camber was a little over 1 degree negative and about 1/2 degree negative on the rear-front. We shimmed the bogie and got back about a 1/2 degree. However, checking the toe, the rear-rear is about 1/2" toe-out. Looks like the rear trailing arm is bent. According to PO records, the tire and rim was replaced a number of years ago so we think it must have encountered a mishap. The new tire on that wheel has worn rapidly since the coach was purchased.
I've seen discussions about using a jack against a wall and using a porta-power. We can't use the wall because we need to go the other way. Can you put a porta-power between the frame and bogie to bend the arm? Do you position it back at the spindle box? Seems like this puts a lot of pressure on the pins but according to the discussions it appears that people have had success. Trying to find the best/least expensive approach.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93874 is a reply to message #93870] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 17:19  |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I've seen discussions about using a jack against a wall and using a porta-power. We can't use the wall because we need to go the other way. Can you put a porta-power between the frame and bogie to bend the arm? Do you position it back at the spindle box? Seems like this puts a lot of pressure on the pins but according to the discussions it appears that people have had success. Trying to find the best/least expensive approach. ""
I helped my friend in michigan do this and it is a bit un nerving but very effective. Yes, you can put a portapower between the frame rail and the bogie and push it outward. You'll find that it springs back quite a bit so you will wind up pushing it out a lot before it rests where you want it. We used a long pipe held up against the rim to gage how parallel it was to the frame rail.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93875 is a reply to message #93870] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 17:20 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Randy,
In my old barn I used to have two 12" I beams that were 4' apart and
embedded in 5' of concrete that I used to pull frames or whatever. If a
"push was needed, we used a screw type lolly column against the base of the
I beam. You could do the same using the wall - if the wall has the
strength.
I don't know that I would push against another part of the suspension. That
would be you call. Hope you get more input.
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Randy Van Winkle <rvanwin@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just had a friend's coach in my barn to check a problem he is having with
> the right rear-rear tire. Camber was a little over 1 degree negative and
> about 1/2 degree negative on the rear-front. We shimmed the bogie and got
> back about a 1/2 degree. However, checking the toe, the rear-rear is about
> 1/2" toe-out. Looks like the rear trailing arm is bent. According to PO
> records, the tire and rim was replaced a number of years ago so we think it
> must have encountered a mishap. The new tire on that wheel has worn rapidly
> since the coach was purchased.
>
> I've seen discussions about using a jack against a wall and using a
> porta-power. We can't use the wall because we need to go the other way.
> Can you put a porta-power between the frame and bogie to bend the arm? Do
> you position it back at the spindle box? Seems like this puts a lot of
> pressure on the pins but according to the discussions it appears that people
> have had success. Trying to find the best/least expensive approach.
> --
> Randy & Margie
> '77 Eleganza II '403'
> Battlefield, MO
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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| Re: Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93880 is a reply to message #93870] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:17 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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| rvanwin wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 17:57 |
Just had a friend's coach in my barn to check a problem he is having with the right rear-rear tire. Camber was a little over 1 degree negative and about 1/2 degree negative on the rear-front. We shimmed the bogie and got back about a 1/2 degree. However, checking the toe, the rear-rear is about 1/2" toe-out. Looks like the rear trailing arm is bent. According to PO records, the tire and rim was replaced a number of years ago so we think it must have encountered a mishap. The new tire on that wheel has worn rapidly since the coach was purchased.
I've seen discussions about using a jack against a wall and using a porta-power. We can't use the wall because we need to go the other way. Can you put a porta-power between the frame and bogie to bend the arm? Do you position it back at the spindle box? Seems like this puts a lot of pressure on the pins but according to the discussions it appears that people have had success. Trying to find the best/least expensive approach.
|
Sir: we did this to Howard Nylanders coach at Bean Station this year. Ken Burton went to a building supply store and brought us a 4' aluminum straight edge for $10. What we needed was a 4" short ram for the porta power. what we ended up with was JR Slaten`s 6" bottle jack cause the porta power was blowed out. It was a real party with many friends for support. I think Howard has a video posted somewhere? Any way we blocked up the coach and dumped the air out of that side and used 2 bottle jacks under the bogie arms and removed the wheels. we took the straight edge and put on the hubs front and rear. If we had a 4" short ram that worked it would have taken about 30 minutes. we looked like a nascar pit crew. It took a little longer with the 6" bottle jack cause we had to remove the shock and mounting stud to have just barley enough room. We ended up jacking 4 times ended up jacking past center about 3/8" IFRC? Not a hard job if you got 20 craftsmen in the crew.
Good Luck..
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93881 is a reply to message #93874] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:14 |
Charles
Messages: 455
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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If you need to push out use a porta power off the frame
but put a reinforement plate on the frame.
If you need to push in drive up next to a telephone pole or
some other strong structure and use the porta power off of
that structure.
I do not think there is any way you can bend or damage the pin.
There is plenty of flex in the arms
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob de Kruyff" <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out
>
>
> ""I've seen discussions about using a jack against a wall and using a
> porta-power. We can't use the wall because we need to go the other way.
> Can you put a porta-power between the frame and bogie to bend the arm? Do
> you position it back at the spindle box? Seems like this puts a lot of
> pressure on the pins but according to the discussions it appears that
> people have had success. Trying to find the best/least expensive approach.
> ""
>
> I helped my friend in michigan do this and it is a bit un nerving but very
> effective. Yes, you can put a portapower between the frame rail and the
> bogie and push it outward. You'll find that it springs back quite a bit so
> you will wind up pushing it out a lot before it rests where you want it.
> We used a long pipe held up against the rim to gage how parallel it was to
> the frame rail.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Charles Wersal
Duncanville, Texas
26 foot 1975 Glenbrook
Pandora's Box
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93883 is a reply to message #93880] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:29 |
Charles
Messages: 455
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Another way not yet mentioned this time is to get an old wheel and a 8 to 10
foot
heavy steel pipe. Weld the pipe to the center of the wheel. Bolt the wheel
to the
boogie arm. Get yourself and two or three buddies to do a little push me
pull me
on the end of the pole. If the pole is only 8 foot long you might need 6 or
more
helpers. We did a strangers coach this way at a rally a couple years ago. I
think
it only took ten of us to bend that arm. We also bent the pole portion of
our bending
tool and ended up slipping a 12 foot pipe over the 8 foot one for more
leverage.
It did work. I think this is the way Jim Bounds does it. Not sure.
Charles
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Charles Wersal
Duncanville, Texas
26 foot 1975 Glenbrook
Pandora's Box
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93886 is a reply to message #93881] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:46 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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| Charles wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 18:14 |
If you need to push out use a porta power off the frame
but put a reinforement plate on the frame.
If you need to push in drive up next to a telephone pole or
some other strong structure and use the porta power off of
that structure.
I do not think there is any way you can bend or damage the pin.
There is plenty of flex in the arms
|
Thanks for the replies. Seems the consensus is that we can push against the frame without any adverse affect. I was already considering putting a plate on the frame to spread the load. We have more negative camber on this rear-rear wheel than on the rear-front. Does pushing out on the arm, correcting toe out, have a tendency to give it some positive camber? Seems to be that the arm is twisted a little.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93888 is a reply to message #93886] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:51 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""Thanks for the replies. Seems the consensus is that we can push against the frame without any adverse affect. I was already considering putting a plate on the frame to spread the load. We have more negative camber on this rear-rear wheel than on the rear-front. Does pushing out on the arm, correcting toe out, have a tendency to give it some positive camber? Seems to be that the arm is twisted a little.""
I don't think it's going to help camber. You may have to shim the top of the bogie casting for that, although a bit off camber won't hurt much.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93893 is a reply to message #93886] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:58 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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| rvanwin wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 19:46 |
| Charles wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 18:14 |
If you need to push out use a porta power off the frame
but put a reinforement plate on the frame.
If you need to push in drive up next to a telephone pole or
some other strong structure and use the porta power off of
that structure.
I do not think there is any way you can bend or damage the pin.
There is plenty of flex in the arms
|
Thanks for the replies. Seems the consensus is that we can push against the frame without any adverse affect. I was already considering putting a plate on the frame to spread the load. We have more negative camber on this rear-rear wheel than on the rear-front. Does pushing out on the arm, correcting toe out, have a tendency to give it some positive camber? Seems to be that the arm is twisted a little.
|
Sir: The old wheel idea works well cause you can raise or lower the bogie and push against the wheel, upper or lower to correct twist and toe. I have been told by a sperienced source that it won`t even hurt the wheel and will give more room if using the 6" jack. On Howards coach we had no twist so we jacked straight to the bogie with it parallel to the frame.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93894 is a reply to message #93886] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 19:14 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Randy,
A little experience here and a lot of listening:
Jim Bounds uses a Port-a-Power between the frame rail and the back of the
spindle to move the arm outward. He does it very carefully, jacking outward
"a little bit", counting the pump strokes. Then releases the pressure and
checks alignment. If not enough, he pumps again to count+1, then releases
and checks. And iterates until the arm stays in alignment.
AFAIK, Jim doesn't have or use a long lever as described by Charles. Fact
is, he seldom finds an arm bent outward. But Sirum does use the long lever.
When I called Okeechobee from Alaska in 2000 after badly bending both the
right center and rear arms OUT, that's what he suggested to me. But he told
me just a couple of weeks ago that they seldom use that method -- mostly for
camber adjustment, and that rarely. IIRC he said they have a bogie
adjustment jig which they can use to adjust both toe and camber.
Since I couldn't locate a wheel and long pipe in Alaska, I used a 6 ton jack
between the exposed end of the spindle and a 6" steel pipe buried down into
the permafrost (electrical pole guard post). After sliding the coach a few
inches sideways on the gravel, I got one just right, and the other close.
When I got back to Jim Bounds', we used a technique he'd never tried before:
Parked in the doorway of his shop and put a 2x4 between the left door jamb
and the frame to keep the coach from sliding. Then used the Port-a-Power
between the opposite jamb and the spindle. Worked fine.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Randy Van Winkle <rvanwin@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Charles wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 18:14
> > If you need to push out use a porta power off the frame
> > but put a reinforement plate on the frame.
> > If you need to push in drive up next to a telephone pole or
> > some other strong structure and use the porta power off of
> > that structure.
> > I do not think there is any way you can bend or damage the pin.
> > There is plenty of flex in the arms
> ...
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Trailing Bogie - Fixing Toe Out [message #93946 is a reply to message #93880] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 01:13 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| C Boyd wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 18:17 |
| rvanwin wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 17:57 |
Just had a friend's coach in my barn to check a problem he is having with the right rear-rear tire. Camber was a little over 1 degree negative and about 1/2 degree negative on the rear-front. We shimmed the bogie and got back about a 1/2 degree. However, checking the toe, the rear-rear is about 1/2" toe-out. Looks like the rear trailing arm is bent. According to PO records, the tire and rim was replaced a number of years ago so we think it must have encountered a mishap. The new tire on that wheel has worn rapidly since the coach was purchased.
I've seen discussions about using a jack against a wall and using a porta-power. We can't use the wall because we need to go the other way. Can you put a porta-power between the frame and bogie to bend the arm? Do you position it back at the spindle box? Seems like this puts a lot of pressure on the pins but according to the discussions it appears that people have had success. Trying to find the best/least expensive approach.
|
Sir: we did this to Howard Nylanders coach at Bean Station this year. Ken Burton went to a building supply store and brought us a 4' aluminum straight edge for $10. What we needed was a 4" short ram for the porta power. what we ended up with was JR Slaten`s 6" bottle jack cause the porta power was blowed out. It was a real party with many friends for support. I think Howard has a video posted somewhere? Any way we blocked up the coach and dumped the air out of that side and used 2 bottle jacks under the bogie arms and removed the wheels. we took the straight edge and put on the hubs front and rear. If we had a 4" short ram that worked it would have taken about 30 minutes. we looked like a nascar pit crew. It took a little longer with the 6" bottle jack cause we had to remove the shock and mounting stud to have just barley enough room. We ended up jacking 4 times ended up jacking past center about 3/8" IFRC? Not a hard job if you got 20 craftsmen in the crew.
Good Luck..
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I think the rulers I bought you were 5 foot ones. I have a pair of 6 foot ones in my hanger that I normally use, but unfortunately at the time they were 500 miles away.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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