Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on?
| CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93287] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 12:06  |
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I'm interested in hearing from anyone else running a CS style alternator. I have wired mine up but can't get it to put out any voltage. Yet when I took the alt in it tests good so I don't know what's up. I wired in the sense, and the L wire on the regulator as well as installing an isolator which has an excitation terminal for the CS alts. All the wiring che ks out so what gives? Did I miss something?
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93300 is a reply to message #93287] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 13:09  |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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I have a long alternator story,,,but not now. Short. New alternator needed 12volts at the big lug to make 12volts. Ya, I know,,,sounds strange. Start it up with 12v. jumper to big post(output) and see if you get 14.2-14.5 output. Had to install a diode, again, longer story later.,,,good luck,,,PL
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| Re: CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93308 is a reply to message #93287] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 14:04 |
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Do you also have the resistor on the switch wire? Yeah I was only getting 11.25v at the big post. That's freaking weird. I'm thinking I may just get a self exciting regulator and install that in my alt. I'm getting tired of changing alts out to put the old one back in haha.
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93310 is a reply to message #93308] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 14:12 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Shan,
I had no trouble getting my CS130D working, but I understand that some of
the CS series alternators do require a near-fully charged battery before
they'll come on line -- they're "maintainers" not "chargers". Try putting a
charger on the battery before getting too deeply involved in finding the
"problem".
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Shan Rose <defconfx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Do you also have the resistor on the switch wire? Yeah I was only getting
> 11.25v at the big post...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93770 is a reply to message #93310] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 08:02 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Ken, How to identify the CS130D alternator?
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Shan,
>
> I had no trouble getting my CS130D working, but I understand that some of
> the CS series alternators do require a near-fully charged battery before
> they'll come on line -- they're "maintainers" not "chargers". Try putting a
> charger on the battery before getting too deeply involved in finding the
> "problem".
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Shan Rose <defconfx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Do you also have the resistor on the switch wire? Yeah I was only getting
>> 11.25v at the big post...
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> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
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--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93776 is a reply to message #93770] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 08:16 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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This web page starts out with a good description and photos:
http://www.alternatorparts.com/cs130-cs130d-series-alternators.htm
<http://www.alternatorparts.com/cs130-cs130d-series-alternators.htm>Note
that the CS130D is NOT physically interchangeable with the OEM SI series
alternators. Reportedly some of the CS series are. The CS-144, in the
proper configuration, should be a good alternative if someone does the
research and documents the necessary changes.
My CS130D is mounted on my Cad500 with a serpentine belt.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Carleton Douglas <aecsdouglas@gmail.com>wrote:
> Ken, How to identify the CS130D alternator?
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #93808 is a reply to message #93287] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 11:07 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
Karma: 0
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Looks like the 3 alt. I have. Early 2000,s(2001,2002,etc.). Hade a little trouble getting it to put out. But I have that problem,,,o-nevermide,,,PL
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| Re: CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94418 is a reply to message #94331] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 02:31 |
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Well I have installed a 4 post isolator, but the wire I was using was not getting 12v to the big wire on the alt, was getting only 11.25v so I figured this was because of loss in the wiring and a partially discharged battery. Sure enough, I ran a temp hot patch to the big post from the house battery, which gave me 12.40 at the alt cable and then I started the engine, and voila 14.4v! So to solve the weak power signal to the excitation terminal on the isolator, I ran a cheap accessory relay to feed the excitation terminal directly off the batt, this worked and got the 12v to the big wire to turn the alt on. So basically I wired in a new alt and sense wire. The only original connection I used was the switch wire to the vreg. Its actually pretty simple now that I figured it out...
| g.winger wrote on Mon, 02 August 2010 13:35 |
OK, Duce, I give up,,,how did yoy get it to turn on. And 12 volts is a little low, shouldn' it be 13.5 to about 14.2 when spinnin???
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73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94451 is a reply to message #94419] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 11:01 |
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| g.winger wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 05:42 |
So, the same problem I had, relay does the same as my diode. But whats the 4th post for???? Another battery??
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The 4th post is for excitation, here is the isolator I am running http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1T4FUJB_enUS293US294&q=noco+140+amp+battery+isolator&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=12868725172811581973 &ei=fDtYTKuCEYe4sQOdzOHICw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCwQ8wIwAg# this isolator has this feature specifically for delcotron CS and AD alts.
basically you supply ignition switched power to this post, I was using the switched supply off of the old SI alt with a quick splice, but that proved to not be enough volts, so that why I used the relay. the relay is triggered by the wire which feeds power to the air compressor, this wire is always on in the run position, thus will keep the circuit closed until the ignition is switched off. my guess is the 4th post is attached to the main terminal on the isolator via a diode to prevent current from traveling back through it, but it supplies the 12v at the big wire just as if the alt were attached in a conventional mannor. you also buy NoCo's delcotron wiring kit for $20, it has the harness you will need.
come to think of it now, the way the GMC is wired up with the aux boost solenoid, it would have been possible to wire the main batt wire from the CS altdirectly to the engine side of the solenoid, and then just route power from the positive accessory post to the main power input on the isolator, so it is actually possible to isolate 3 battery banks using that method...
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
[Updated on: Tue, 03 August 2010 11:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94458 is a reply to message #94451] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 11:21 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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A combiner eliminates all the fancy footwork and keeps the alternator output
connected to the battery permanently. However, not to be lost in all this
is the fact that these later alternators are intentionally designed to
require 12 VDC at the output terminal so that they're not called upon to
charge a completely discharged, or shorted, battery. They are explicitly
intended for battery MAINTENANCE, NOT CHARGING. Not necessarily how we'd
like to use them in an RV, but it is what it is. :-)
Ken H.
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Shan Rose <defconfx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> g.winger wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 05:42
> > So, the same problem I had, relay does the same as my diode. But whats
> the 4th post for???? Another battery??...
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94469 is a reply to message #94458] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 12:39 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 12:21 |
A combiner eliminates all the fancy footwork and keeps the alternator output connected to the battery permanently. However, not to be lost in all this is the fact that these later alternators are intentionally designed to require 12 VDC at the output terminal so that they're not called upon to charge a completely discharged, or shorted, battery. They are explicitly intended for battery MAINTENANCE, NOT CHARGING. Not necessarily how we'd like to use them in an RV, but it is what it is. 
Ken H.
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Ken,
We were told that this was so that the ECU could keep the alternator off-line until the cold engine had stabilized and could support the additional 2+HP load. The result in our case is the same.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94472 is a reply to message #94458] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 13:14 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""They are explicitly
intended for battery MAINTENANCE, NOT CHARGING. Not necessarily how we'd
like to use them in an RV, but it is what it is.
Ken H.
""
Ken--I'm totally confused by that. Weren't these used as standard alternators on GM cars? This would indicate that if a battery is low, you would be SOL. I would think you could still crank the car even as low as 11.5V, but then not be able to charge it?? What am i missing here?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94491 is a reply to message #94472] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 16:06 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 03 August 2010 14:14 |
""They are explicitly intended for battery MAINTENANCE, NOT CHARGING. Not necessarily how we'd like to use them in an RV, but it is what it is.
Ken H.
""
Ken--I'm totally confused by that. Weren't these used as standard alternators on GM cars? This would indicate that if a battery is low, you would be SOL. I would think you could still crank the car even as low as 11.5V, but then not be able to charge it?? What am i missing here?
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Bob,
These new alternators go with computer based engines that will not start with a system voltage much below 12 (trust me on that), because the starter load will pull the system too low for all the fancy stuff to work.
When it does start, it only has to re-charge a little 60 or so AH battery. The system needs the alternator capacity to run sensors, fuel pump and injectors and bunch of other junk that is reading code that is written down to be the size of a telephone book.
This is also why the ECU keeps the alternator off-line so it does not stall the engine after a hard start. If you have to jump start a modern car, keep the cables attached until you are sure it is running, if you pull them off as soon as it starts, you may have to do it again.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94496 is a reply to message #94491] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 16:39 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""These new alternators go with computer based engines that will not start with a system voltage much below 12 (trust me on that), because the starter load will pull the system too low for all the fancy stuff to work.
When it does start, it only has to re-charge a little 60 or so AH battery. The system needs the alternator capacity to run sensors, fuel pump and injectors and bunch of other junk that is reading code that is written down to be the size of a telephone book.
This is also why the ECU keeps the alternator off-line so it does not stall the engine after a hard start. If you have to jump start a modern car, keep the cables attached until you are sure it is running, if you pull them off as soon as it starts, you may have to do it again. ""
Yup, I realize how the charging circuit is controlled by a miriad of software logic, but I'm still totally surprised that the alternator will not come back on with less than 12V in the system. I suppose that as you get a boost, there's a good chance it will see 12V but if you are on the ragged edge and can still crank and start and not have the alternator kick in is a total surprise to me. I guess my next question would be why can't the alternator start when there is less than 12V?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] CS 144 issues, why wont it turn on? [message #94505 is a reply to message #94496] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 17:53 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
I can't recall where I saw a definitive statement on the 12 VDC requirement
(and that may not be the exact number) -- maybe a Delco publication or a
shop manual. But the explanation was that the regulator is designed with
that feature (in addition to the remote control capability for the ECU).
Remember that these later alternators (now GM-designated as "generators")
have 400 Hz pulse width modulated fields rather than the old analog contol,
so their much more sophisticated and can readily do such things as set that
minimum voltage requirement.
Ken H.
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> ""These new alternators go with computer based engines that will not start
> with a system voltage much below 12 (trust me on that), because the starter
> load will pull the system too low for all the fancy stuff to work.
>
> When it does start, it only has to re-charge a little 60 or so AH battery.
> The system needs the alternator capacity to run sensors, fuel pump and
> injectors and bunch of other junk that is reading code that is written down
> to be the size of a telephone book.
>
> This is also why the ECU keeps the alternator off-line so it does not stall
> the engine after a hard start. If you have to jump start a modern car, keep
> the cables attached until you are sure it is running, if you pull them off
> as soon as it starts, you may have to do it again. ""
>
> Yup, I realize how the charging circuit is controlled by a miriad of
> software logic, but I'm still totally surprised that the alternator will not
> come back on with less than 12V in the system. I suppose that as you get a
> boost, there's a good chance it will see 12V but if you are on the ragged
> edge and can still crank and start and not have the alternator kick in is a
> total surprise to me. I guess my next question would be why can't the
> alternator start when there is less than 12V?
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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