Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » I blew the Onan
| I blew the Onan [message #90744] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 19:05  |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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what happens if you make a dumb mistake and hook the shore power cord to the wires coming out of the Onan? i got a tick, tick,tick, tick... sound from that corner of the coach then nothing.
did i burn up the generator? was the ticking sound from the generator trying to be an electric motor and turn the Onan engine?
costly mistake!!??
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: I blew the Onan [message #90748 is a reply to message #90744] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 19:38  |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
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| fred v wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 17:05 |
what happens if you make a dumb mistake and hook the shore power cord to the wires coming out of the Onan? i got a tick, tick,tick, tick... sound from that corner of the coach then nothing.
did i burn up the generator? was the ticking sound from the generator trying to be an electric motor and turn the Onan engine?
costly mistake!!??
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Fred: I am sure you did not do it any good, but the only way to tell is to start it and see. Could be that it will be OK. Don't do it again....lol.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90755 is a reply to message #90744] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 20:23 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Fred,
Looking at the manual's wiring diagram, I don't see anything that was likely
damaged by brief application of 120 vac.
I don't think the generator (actually, alternator) can motor though, so the
tick, tick,... is a mystery.
Have you checked whether the breaker popped, as it should have if the
generator presented a larger load that it's (was?) capable of producing.
Maybe you got lucky (man have I ever had those moments!).
Ken H.
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:05 PM, fred veenschoten <fredntoni@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> what happens if you make a dumb mistake and hook the shore power cord to
> the wires coming out of the Onan? i got a tick, tick,tick, tick... sound
> from that corner of the coach then nothing.
>
> did i burn up the generator? was the ticking sound from the generator
> trying to be an electric motor and turn the Onan engine?
> costly mistake!!??
>
>
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: I blew the Onan [message #90774 is a reply to message #90744] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 22:30 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| fred v wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 20:05 |
what happens if you make a dumb mistake and hook the shore power cord to the wires coming out of the Onan? i got a tick, tick,tick, tick... sound from that corner of the coach then nothing.
did i burn up the generator? was the ticking sound from the generator trying to be an electric motor and turn the Onan engine?
costly mistake!!??
|
Fred,
Don't do anything rash until it has been checked out by a very knowledgeable person. There is only likely to be damage if the breaker was already defective. There are many places a failure could have occurred that are repairable within economic reason.
If the APU is a standard Onan NF, the included circuit breaker should have protected it. The ticking might have been that breaker stumbling (they are not supposed to do this, but old ignored breaker do) before it opened as it was supposed to.
Ken is correct that the stationary generator cannot motor. I used to do a lot of electric machines, but it is my bed time and I will explain this in great detail if anybody actually cares.
I would say - Get the wiring issues straight.
Then check the machine's breaker. Even if it looks closed, cycle it a few times.
Fire it up. There is very little likely hood that this will extend any damage that was repairable. Even if you burned a slip ring, it may self polish in a couple of hours of light load. (And, it should not have burned before the breaker opened.)
If it makes juice - No Harm - No Foul.
You know - of course - that you are the only one ever to make such a mistake - today, on a GMC. (Stories available if you buy the beer.)
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: I blew the Onan [message #90791 is a reply to message #90744] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 00:53 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| fred v wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 19:05 |
what happens if you make a dumb mistake and hook the shore power cord to the wires coming out of the Onan? i got a tick, tick,tick, tick... sound from that corner of the coach then nothing.
did i burn up the generator? was the ticking sound from the generator trying to be an electric motor and turn the Onan engine?
costly mistake!!??
|
I'm sure it is repairable. We all do something like that at times. I know I have.
I watched a guy in a new Diamond aircraft hot dogging around today and he hit the side of the wing on a closed hanger door as he spun the airplane around on the ramp. It only smashed the combination strobe, red anti-collision, and tail light assembly.
The pilot (a lawyer with more money than brains) wanted it fixed immediately. So the on field shop told him it would be done by evening. The bill was $749 including sales tax. I looked up the part and I could get it for $235. Installation involved removing 6 screws and 2 wiring plugs (about 15 minutes).
My point is the guy expected a big bill so that is what he got. Take a look at it more closely. Maybe the ticking was only the circuit breaker.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: I blew the Onan [message #90804 is a reply to message #90774] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 08:24 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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| mcolie wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 22:30 |
| fred v wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 20:05 |
what happens if you make a dumb mistake and hook the shore power cord to the wires coming out of the Onan? i got a tick, tick,tick, tick... sound from that corner of the coach then nothing.
did i burn up the generator? was the ticking sound from the generator trying to be an electric motor and turn the Onan engine?
costly mistake!!??
|
Fred,
Don't do anything rash until it has been checked out by a very knowledgeable person. There is only likely to be damage if the breaker was already defective. There are many places a failure could have occurred that are repairable within economic reason.
If the APU is a standard Onan NF, the included circuit breaker should have protected it. The ticking might have been that breaker stumbling (they are not supposed to do this, but old ignored breaker do) before it opened as it was supposed to.
Ken is correct that the stationary generator cannot motor. I used to do a lot of electric machines, but it is my bed time and I will explain this in great detail if anybody actually cares.
I would say - Get the wiring issues straight.
Then check the machine's breaker. Even if it looks closed, cycle it a few times.
Fire it up. There is very little likely hood that this will extend any damage that was repairable. Even if you burned a slip ring, it may self polish in a couple of hours of light load. (And, it should not have burned before the breaker opened.)
If it makes juice - No Harm - No Foul.
You know - of course - that you are the only one ever to make such a mistake - today, on a GMC. (Stories available if you buy the beer.)
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
Matt
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i backed up over the shore power and ripped it out of the junction box. so when i went to hook it back up there was another set if wires on top of the ones for the shore power. turns out these were the wires from the Onan and to the breaker panel. the breaker was set to shore power so the voltage hit the supply side of the gen. breaker that was open and went back to the Onan. it shouldn't have affected any coach wiring.
Matt, what is the APU and Onan NF. terms i'm unfamiliar with. where are they located.
thanks much for your input,
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: I blew the Onan [message #90816 is a reply to message #90804] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 09:18 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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| fred v wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 09:24 |
Matt, what is the APU and Onan NF. terms i'm unfamiliar with. where are they located.
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APU = Alternate Power Unit
And "NF" was the model series of the Onan Power Drawer generators used in our coaches.
When I first read your original message, I thought you had plugged shore power into the Onan output receptacle *while the Onan was running*. That would have likely caused a lot of fireworks as the two unsynched power sources combined to make who-knows what sort of waveform.
If the Onan was not running, then what Ken said.
Rick "wondering how the male-female plug arrangement on a shore power cable could have allowed such a mistake" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90821 is a reply to message #90816] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 09:33 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Rick,
Or
Auxiliary Power Unit
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rick Denney
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 9:18 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan
fred v wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 09:24
> Matt, what is the APU and Onan NF. terms i'm unfamiliar with. where are
they located.
APU = Alternate Power Unit
And "NF" was the model series of the Onan Power Drawer generators used in
our coaches.
When I first read your original message, I thought you had plugged shore
power into the Onan output receptacle *while the Onan was running*. That
would have likely caused a lot of fireworks as the two unsynched power
sources combined to make who-knows what sort of waveform.
If the Onan was not running, then what Ken said.
Rick "wondering how the male-female plug arrangement on a shore power cable
could have allowed such a mistake" Denney
--
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: I blew the Onan [message #90824 is a reply to message #90804] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 09:47 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| fred v wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 09:24 |
i backed up over the shore power and ripped it out of the junction box. so when i went to hook it back up there was another set if wires on top of the ones for the shore power. turns out these were the wires from the Onan and to the breaker panel. the breaker was set to shore power so the voltage hit the supply side of the gen. breaker that was open and went back to the Onan. it shouldn't have affected any coach wiring.
Matt, what is the APU and Onan NF. terms I'm unfamiliar with. where are they located.
thanks much for your input,
|
Fred,
Sorry, APU is Auxiliary Power Unit (borrowed from aircraft abbreviations - they use them for everything to make the instructions lighter), it is shorter than "Lighting Plant", "Generator Set", "Ship's Service Generator" and even genset.
NF on the other hand is a mistake. The 6.0Kw Onan typically installed in GMCs is an NH model. The 4.0Kw that I have is a BF....
Can you guess why I try to remember to always walk all the way around the coach if I have stopped for more than a traffic light?
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90843 is a reply to message #90824] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 11:58 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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From my past, APU (auxilliary power unit) referred to
an EXTERNAL source of power used when an aircraft's
normal on-board power source (generators run by the
engines) was not being operated.
Therefore, calling our gensets an APU is somewhat
inaccurate, to say the least.
* Mac Macdonald *
* USAF, Retired *
* Oklahoma City *
** "Money Pit" **
* '76 ex - P.B. *
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: mcolie@chartermi.net
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:47:37 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan
>
> Fred,
>
> Sorry, APU is Auxiliary Power Unit (borrowed from aircraft abbreviations - they use them for everything to make the instructions lighter), it is shorter than "Lighting Plant", "Generator Set", "Ship's Service Generator" and even genset.
>
> NF on the other hand is a mistake. The 6.0Kw Onan typically installed in GMCs is an NH model. The 4.0Kw that I have is a BF....
>
> Can you guess why I try to remember to always walk all the way around the coach if I have stopped for more than a traffic light?
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90846 is a reply to message #90843] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 12:16 |
bhayes
Messages: 263
Registered: March 2010
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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On commercial aircraft, I believe APUs are typically onboard and provide
power to start the engines and power the aircraft systems prior to engine
startup.
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:58 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> From my past, APU (auxilliary power unit) referred to
> an EXTERNAL source of power used when an aircraft's
> normal on-board power source (generators run by the
> engines) was not being operated.
>
> Therefore, calling our gensets an APU is somewhat
> inaccurate, to say the least.
>
> * Mac Macdonald *
> * USAF, Retired *
> * Oklahoma City *
> ** "Money Pit" **
> * '76 ex - P.B. *
>
>
>
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > From: mcolie@chartermi.net
> > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 09:47:37 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan
> >
> > Fred,
> >
> > Sorry, APU is Auxiliary Power Unit (borrowed from aircraft abbreviations
> - they use them for everything to make the instructions lighter), it is
> shorter than "Lighting Plant", "Generator Set", "Ship's Service Generator"
> and even genset.
> >
> > NF on the other hand is a mistake. The 6.0Kw Onan typically installed in
> GMCs is an NH model. The 4.0Kw that I have is a BF....
> >
> > Can you guess why I try to remember to always walk all the way around the
> coach if I have stopped for more than a traffic light?
> >
> > Matt
> > --
> > Matt & Mary Colie
> > '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> > SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90848 is a reply to message #90846] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 12:23 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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I SAID it was "from my past" which refers to
my time as a B-52 crewmember back in the 60s!
The APUs were what powered up systems prior
to engine start.
* * * * * * * * *
* Mac Macdonald *
* Oklahoma City *
** "Money Pit" **
* '76 ex - P.B. *
* * * * * * * * *
----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:16:21 -0600
> From: bhayes@byu.net
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan
>
> On commercial aircraft, I believe APUs are typically onboard and provide
> power to start the engines and power the aircraft systems prior to engine
> startup.
>
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:58 AM, D C *Mac* Macdonald wrote:
>
>>
>> From my past, APU (auxilliary power unit) referred to
>> an EXTERNAL source of power used when an aircraft's
>> normal on-board power source (generators run by the
>> engines) was not being operated.
>>
>> Therefore, calling our gensets an APU is somewhat
>> inaccurate, to say the least.
>>
>> * Mac Macdonald *
>> * USAF, Retired *
>> * Oklahoma City *
>> ** "Money Pit" **
>> * '76 ex - P.B. *
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90865 is a reply to message #90848] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 17:45 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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In the C-130 world, we called the external power source a Ground Power Unit
(GPU) and the onboard independent one an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU).
Ken H.
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:23 PM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> I SAID it was "from my past" which refers to
> my time as a B-52 crewmember back in the 60s!
>
> The APUs were what powered up systems prior
> to engine start.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90898 is a reply to message #90848] |
Fri, 02 July 2010 23:29 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
The B-52 C & D models did not have an Auxiliary Power Unit on board.
Back when I was a Mechanical Accessories Repairman (ABR 42251) 1964 - 1968
the ground power unit used by the Strategic Air Command to supply electrical
power to the B-52 C & D models I worked on at Westover AFB (Chicopee Falls,
MA) and Anderson AFB (Agana, Guam) was the MD-3 Ground Power Unit; called a
Generator Set in the article below.
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?s=bd4f9057aaf2ebe5337e4fd3e215
6b83&showtopic=189419&pid=1772762&st=0&#entry1772762
To supply compressed air to the B-52 engine bleed air system on the ground
the MA-1A Start Cart was used. I used to it check the engine bleed air
system, the air conditioning system, and constant speed drives. Obviously it
was used to start the engines.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=6923
Onboard power on the C & D model B-52's was supplied by electrical
generators driven by pneumatic constant speed drives built by General
Electric and Sundstrand. I can still remember how to trouble shoot these
units! Funny what you retain.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90904 is a reply to message #90898] |
Sat, 03 July 2010 00:20 |
Len Novak
Messages: 676
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Neither did the E,F,G, and H
Bleed air still ran everything on the E and F on the G and H it was all
engine driven
We still used the ear splitting MD-3 and MA-1A
Len and Pat
78 Kingsley, The Beast II with dash lights that work
Fallbrook, CA
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Mueller
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 9:29 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan
G'day,
The B-52 C & D models did not have an Auxiliary Power Unit on board.
Back when I was a Mechanical Accessories Repairman (ABR 42251) 1964 - 1968
the ground power unit used by the Strategic Air Command to supply electrical
power to the B-52 C & D models I worked on at Westover AFB (Chicopee Falls,
MA) and Anderson AFB (Agana, Guam) was the MD-3 Ground Power Unit; called a
Generator Set in the article below.
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?s=bd4f9057aaf2ebe5337e4fd3e215
6b83&showtopic=189419&pid=1772762&st=0&#entry1772762
To supply compressed air to the B-52 engine bleed air system on the ground
the MA-1A Start Cart was used. I used to it check the engine bleed air
system, the air conditioning system, and constant speed drives. Obviously it
was used to start the engines.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=6923
Onboard power on the C & D model B-52's was supplied by electrical
generators driven by pneumatic constant speed drives built by General
Electric and Sundstrand. I can still remember how to trouble shoot these
units! Funny what you retain.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie
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_______________________________________________
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Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90908 is a reply to message #90898] |
Sat, 03 July 2010 04:11 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Would you believe: My last USAF assignment was as Chief of Commodities,
Weapons, and Computers reliability & maintainability engineering at Robins
AFB. Among the 195 Federal Stock Groups in the Commodities area was Ground
Support Equipment. I don't remember the FSG, but it included ALL of USAF's
ground support equipment, MD-3's, MA-1A's, heaters & air conditioners, etc.
What a nightmare! Every equipment or part purchase or problem, every
specification or manufacturer change -- EVERYTHING had to be approved by my
technicians and engineers.
But that was just a tiny part of the overall problem -- remember those other
194 FSG's? They literally included everything from pencils and paper
through boots & saddles to numerically controlled machine tools, and the
complete Bare Base equipment -- a 5 mile long train full of stuff to
completely equip a 5000 population town -- anywhere.
I won't even go into Weapons (ALL of USAF's guns & bomb racks) or Computers
(ALL computers not used for data processing).
An impossible job. Which is why I had it: I wanted to come south to
prepare for retirement. The Commander I talked to said, "Well, I've got
this impossible job to fill; sounds like you can NOT do it as well as
anyone." I'm not sure what that said about my qualifications and
reputation. :-)
Sorry for the rambling...the GMC CAN have an APU. :-)
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> G'day,
>
> The B-52 C & D models did not have an Auxiliary Power Unit on board.
>
> Back when I was a Mechanical Accessories Repairman (ABR 42251) 1964 -
> 1968...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] I blew the Onan [message #90909 is a reply to message #90898] |
Sat, 03 July 2010 04:22 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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IIRC, each engine driven generator on our (specially equipped) JC-130's was
40kVA. The APU supplied another 40kVA and bleed air for air conditioning on
the ground. It was the primary source of bleed air to start the first
engine.
The B-52's strategic mission didn't require it to be self sufficient under
tactical conditions like the C-130 on a dirt strip. Thank goodness, my only
experience in those conditions was 'Nam, and seldom there because of the
unique "black" operations I flew.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> G'day,
>
> The B-52 C & D models did not have an Auxiliary Power Unit on board.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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