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| Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90270] |
Mon, 28 June 2010 10:40  |
Keith V
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Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Or do I have to pull the carb and open it up?
I think mine may be sticking, but am not sure.
Also if it is sticking how do you fix it??
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90284 is a reply to message #90270] |
Mon, 28 June 2010 12:12  |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
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>
Keith,
Yes, you CAN check it - sort of.
With a nice, bright, tightly focused flashlight, peer into
the front vent tube. Look down the tube and toward the front
of the tube you'll see a little structure that looks like a
pair of tiny "wings". That's the primary rod hanger. The
actual power piston is slightly forward of what you can see.
With a small but long screwdriver, and using your lightest,
gentlest touch, insert the tip of screwdriver into the vent
tube and carefully press down on the top of those little
"wings". If it moves down easily, the piston is not stuck -
at least under these conditions. If it doesn't move, press
just a little harder. If it is stuck UP, you may be able to
move it down. If it is stuck DOWN, it won't go any further.
If you press harder, you risk slipping the screwdriver off
the hanger and punching and possibly damaging the gasket
below. Depending on where the blade of screwdriver meets the
hanger, you risk spreading apart the "wings" of the hanger.
If you do that, the alignment of the rods will be affected.
> Or do I have to pull the carb and open it up?
That really would be the best solution. If the piston is
stuck, you going to have to open it up to take of it.
> Also if it is sticking how do you fix it??
Remove the carburetor and disassemble at least the top as
outlined in the GMC manual. When you do that, be
exceptionally careful pulling the top off so you don't bend,
spindle or mutilate the fragile retaining spring and primary
rods. Depending on your carburetor, remove the power piston
as outlined in the manual. Some have a plastic keeper, some
can be bounced out with a few press/releases. Be ready to
catch the parts when/if it bounces out. Whatever you do,
DON'T PRY IT OUT. Use carburetor cleaner to soak the
cylinder until is moves freely. If you stop here, it will
probably stick again, so...
When you pull the power piston out, OBSERVE CAREFULLY HOW
THE RODS AND SPRING ARE ASSEMBLED. That little spring can be
frustrating, especially if you drop it. Don't even try to
pull the hanger part out of the piston. Use crocus cloth to
carefully clean it to bright metal - just take off the crud,
varnish, mung, etc. When I did mine, I used a piece of
crocus cloth wrapped around a #2 pencil (eraser end), and
twirled it around inside the cylinder. Take off only as much
as will allow a smooth and complete travel of the piston.
Check it as you go. Use Dust-Off or other dry/low pressure
air to blow out any debris.
Reassemble carefully.
Although, at this point, you might as well do the whole
rebuild thing. Or at least get a kit so you can get the new
gasket.
Explaining it takes nearly as long as doing it, but there
are some things to watch out for if you've never done it before.
HTH
Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90329 is a reply to message #90284] |
Mon, 28 June 2010 18:36 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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| tmaki wrote on Mon, 28 June 2010 12:12 |
>
Keith,
Yes, you CAN check it - sort of.
With a nice, bright, tightly focused flashlight, peer into
the front vent tube. Look down the tube and toward the front
of the tube you'll see a little structure that looks like a
pair of tiny "wings". That's the primary rod hanger. The
actual power piston is slightly forward of what you can see.
With a small but long screwdriver, and using your lightest,
gentlest touch, insert the tip of screwdriver into the vent
tube and carefully press down on the top of those little
"wings". If it moves down easily, the piston is not stuck -
at least under these conditions. If it doesn't move, press
just a little harder. If it is stuck UP, you may be able to
move it down. If it is stuck DOWN, it won't go any further.
If you press harder, you risk slipping the screwdriver off
the hanger and punching and possibly damaging the gasket
below. Depending on where the blade of screwdriver meets the
hanger, you risk spreading apart the "wings" of the hanger.
If you do that, the alignment of the rods will be affected.
> Or do I have to pull the carb and open it up?
That really would be the best solution. If the piston is
stuck, you going to have to open it up to take of it.
> Also if it is sticking how do you fix it??
Remove the carburetor and disassemble at least the top as
outlined in the GMC manual. When you do that, be
exceptionally careful pulling the top off so you don't bend,
spindle or mutilate the fragile retaining spring and primary
rods. Depending on your carburetor, remove the power piston
as outlined in the manual. Some have a plastic keeper, some
can be bounced out with a few press/releases. Be ready to
catch the parts when/if it bounces out. Whatever you do,
DON'T PRY IT OUT. Use carburetor cleaner to soak the
cylinder until is moves freely. If you stop here, it will
probably stick again, so...
When you pull the power piston out, OBSERVE CAREFULLY HOW
THE RODS AND SPRING ARE ASSEMBLED. That little spring can be
frustrating, especially if you drop it. Don't even try to
pull the hanger part out of the piston. Use crocus cloth to
carefully clean it to bright metal - just take off the crud,
varnish, mung, etc. When I did mine, I used a piece of
crocus cloth wrapped around a #2 pencil (eraser end), and
twirled it around inside the cylinder. Take off only as much
as will allow a smooth and complete travel of the piston.
Check it as you go. Use Dust-Off or other dry/low pressure
air to blow out any debris.
Reassemble carefully.
Although, at this point, you might as well do the whole
rebuild thing. Or at least get a kit so you can get the new
gasket.
Explaining it takes nearly as long as doing it, but there
are some things to watch out for if you've never done it before.
HTH
Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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Nice description!! The only thing I would add is that you must be VERY careful not to remove any metal from the piston with to harsh of an abrasive. If you decrease the diameter of that piston, it looses its precision fit, and allows vacuum to get past the piston easily, there-for changing the actual vacuum figures that activate the raising of the piston and in turn making it run a lot richer than intended. I usually use multiple applications of carb cleaner and an old "T" shirt to get the crud off. Just what I do....
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90334 is a reply to message #90270] |
Mon, 28 June 2010 19:09 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| Keith V wrote on Mon, 28 June 2010 08:40 |
Or do I have to pull the carb and open it up?
I think mine may be sticking, but am not sure.
Also if it is sticking how do you fix it??
|
AS others have stated, you CAN check the power valve with the carb installed and assembled.
If you need to disassemble it, I took a few different procedures from GM's maintenance manual and cut and pasted into a procedure for CHANGING the power valve spring. bdub posted it at: <http://www.bdub.net/powervalve.html>
Here are pictures to go with the procedures. <http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=8452&cat=3753> The numbers on the pictures refer to the steps in the procedure. The procedure also has references to figures in the GM maintenance manual.
While it is possible to do this with the carb installed, it is easier (and safer for the dropped small parts) to remove the carb and do it at a bench or table.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90378 is a reply to message #90334] |
Mon, 28 June 2010 23:30 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Well I did just rebuild the carb and the power piston seemed fine, moved freely. The little plastic retainer didn't hold it down in place, so it's possible it's jammed or something. It's a pita to get those rods in place.
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90405 is a reply to message #90378] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 09:02 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
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Keith V wrote:
>
> Well I did just rebuild the carb and the power piston
> seemed fine, moved freely. The little plastic retainer
> didn't hold it down in place, so it's possible it's
> jammed or something. It's a pita to get those rods in
> place.
>
>
Yeah, can't argue with that. I think part of it is the way
the rods have to go through the gasket - that whole
under/over thing. If they aren't just perfectly straight
going in, or if the gasket material is even slightly uneven,
there is a potential for the rods to hang up or go crooked -
bad news in that case. There might be some variation in how
the gasket is cut. Those little holes for the rods and the
slits around them have to be nearly perfect. I don't know
how much variation there is in rebuild kit gaskets. The
least expensive ones may be at the lower end of the Q/C
range. Having three or four hands, a couple of them with
thin, highly deft fingers would be a great help.
I found (and maybe you did, too) that using a small, thin
machinist's pocket rule to keep the rods/piston in place
while lowering the top down seems to work pretty well. You
have to get eye-level to the top of the bowl, hold the rods
in place all the way down, slip the rule over them, and
lower the top of the carb straight down making sure all the
tubes are going into their correct locations. When the top
is just nearly all the way down, slip the rule out and lower
the top into place completely.
You'll figure it out. My guess is that the plastic piston
retainer jumped off and is crooked or there is a little
misalignment of the gasket or a small piece or shred of the
gasket material keeping one of the rods or piston from
moving smoothly. There isn't much else in there.
Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90409 is a reply to message #90405] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 09:40 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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So looking at the power piston, the hanger goes into the top of the piston and there is a small rod hanging out of the bottom.
Are either of these supposed to move relative to the piston?
Also I have 2 springs that could go under the piston, how can I determine if the right one is in there?
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90413 is a reply to message #90270] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 10:15 |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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I was just reading. Cliff Ruggles book again last nite and he states that you want the lightest sping that does not lift at idle. If you have several springs there a couple ways to tell which ones are stronger/weaker. Dont have the book with me right now but one is to hook up a hand vacume pump to a junk qjet body, assemble the power piston and pump and see how much vac. it takes to move it down in the bore. I've never done it but some one once wrote that you can also take the junk body/piston/spring assemby on a ride hooked up with a hose and watch the piston move at diffrent loads,RPM,throttle openings.Just a tuning tool. (take a helper of course!!) The other way, I'm kinda fuzzy on this one is to put a small screwdriver on top of the piston. Then stack a bunch of washers on top of the screw driver and record how many "washers" each spring requires before it drops.,,,Goodluck,,PL
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| Re: Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90416 is a reply to message #90413] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 10:41 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| g.winger wrote on Tue, 29 June 2010 08:15 |
I was just reading. Cliff Ruggles book again last nite and he states that you want the lightest sping that does not lift at idle. ....
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The one that is spec'ed for our original carbs is the 8-4. It is red and a very light spring. I bought a bag of them once.
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=8451&cat=3753>
I used one and sold almost all the rest of them. (at cost) I might have one or two left.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90424 is a reply to message #90409] |
Tue, 29 June 2010 11:05 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
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Keith V wrote:
>
> So looking at the power piston, the hanger goes into the
> top of the piston and there is a small rod hanging out
> of the bottom.
>
> Are either of these supposed to move relative to the
> piston?
The hanger part in the top of the piston is "permanently"
attached to the inner machined-out diameter of the brass
piston itself. It should not be loose. If it is, that's a
problem. It should not move (even the slightest amount)
independently of the piston. If it /is/ loose, and you can
separate it from the piston, it can be re-assembled with a
drop of epoxy. Roe insists that the length of the piston
assembly - not including the rod part at the bottom, but
including the hanger - be 1.950-1.955".
The small rod at the other end is, so far as I can tell, a
machined part of the piston. It is made of the same piece of
brass. Unless it is broken off (seems unlikely), it is part
of the piston and moves with it. That rod portion of the
piston is what limits the downward travel as it contacts the
small wedge-shaped stop at the bottom - part of the APT.
If you look at the X-section view of the carburetor in the
GMC manual (Fig. 4 & 5 on pages 6M-3 and 6M-4), you can see
the relationship of those parts.
A couple of things you might want to consider:
(Forgive me for not remembering what Q-jet model you have)
The power pistons are not all the same from carburetor
series to series. Some don't have the APT rod. There is also
some discussion in the literature about well-meaning but
perhaps misguided techs nipping off the APT rod, claiming
some magical performance gain. I think a thorough study of
operation of the parts dispels that myth. If yours appears
to be cut off, evidenced by a diagonal cut or tool marks
done by other than precision machining, you might consider
replacing the power piston assembly.
> Also I have 2 springs that could go under the piston, how
> can I determine if the right one is in there?
P/N 7036019 is the correct one for an original GMC
carburetor. If you can see any color on yours, I believe a
red tint would be correct. AC/Delco and Edelbrock sell them.
Determining what you have could be a challenge. Roe
discusses using a consistent, controllable vacuum source and
carburetor body, etc. An OK method with everything on the
bench and disassembled, but complicated and time consuming
for your purpose. Ruggles suggests the strongest spring that
keeps things seated at idle. That, of course, assumes you
have good manifold vacuum at idle.
The easiest thing, if you're in doubt, is to just buy the
correct one (or several). That way you know what you've got.
Toby Maki
'73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90596 is a reply to message #90424] |
Wed, 30 June 2010 21:36 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Well I stuck a screwdriver down the vent and the piston felt nice and smooth.
So I pulled the carb and checked the spring.
it's 1 inch long and has about 11 turns rather than 8, so it's too light and will never come up!
So that could explain why I'm rich at idle and lean when I get on it. The power piston never unseats and the jets are too big ( maybe, they are 72's)
Mike Miller???
do want to sell one of those springs?
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90663 is a reply to message #90596] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 10:55 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| Keith V wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 19:36 |
So I pulled the carb and checked the spring.
it's 1 inch long and has about 11 turns rather than 8, so it's too light and will never come up!
So that could explain why I'm rich at idle and lean when I get on it. The power piston never unseats and the jets are too big ( maybe, they are 72's)
Mike Miller???
do want to sell one of those springs?
|
I still have two unused red springs. (And one black one that is the same size.) I can sell you one.
BUT... While I am not an expert, IIRC, the correct spring (red) is about the lightest spring available.
The idea seems to be to lower the amount of vacuum needed to hold the plunger DOWN. IE: A heavy rig doesn't need to richen the mixture until a more open throttle gives you a lower vacuum.
Wouldn't more turns (your 11 turn spring) make it a stronger spring? ... making the power valve open earlier (at a higher vacuum, less throttle opening) richening your mixture sooner than you would with the 8 turn spring?
I think you have another problem, and the "correct" spring will make your problems worse.
Like I said, I am NOT an expert.
Keith, If you still want the spring, send me your snail mail address. When you get the spring, put a couple of bucks in an envelope and send it to me.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90671 is a reply to message #90663] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 11:36 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Well I ordered the Edlebrock kit last night. I figured I had to order jets anyway.
IF the wire size is the same a springs with more turns will be softer, it's a longer wire and so more floppy...
I think my problem is the spring is so light the power piston never comes up when the vacuum drops, this coupled with too large of jets make the mixture rich at light throttle and lean at hard throttle as the power piston is always all the way down.
Make sense to me, We'll see in a few days when I get it back together.
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90672 is a reply to message #90671] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 11:48 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:36 AM, Keith V wrote:
>
>
> Well I ordered the Edlebrock kit last night. I figured I had to order jets anyway.
>
> IF the wire size is the same a springs with more turns will be softer, it's a longer wire and so more floppy...
>
> I think my problem is the spring is so light the power piston never comes up when the vacuum drops, this coupled with too large of jets make the mixture rich at light throttle and lean at hard throttle as the power piston is always all the way down.
>
> Make sense to me, We'll see in a few days when I get it back together.
>
>
> --
> Keith
Keith
You are thinking about this wrong. If the wire size is the same and you have more turns it will give more pressure, not less. Each turn on the spring gives some pressure. The more turns that you have, the more pressure from one end of the spring to the other.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #90673 is a reply to message #90671] |
Thu, 01 July 2010 12:06 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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| Keith V wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 11:36 |
I think my problem is the spring is so light the power piston never comes up when the vacuum drops, this coupled with too large of jets make the mixture rich at light throttle and lean at hard throttle as the power piston is always all the way down.
|
vacuum hold the piston down with the rods into the jets which makes the mix lean. as vac. drops the spring pushes the piston and rods up out of the jets making the mix rich.
so at idle the mix should be lean and get rich at WOT. i hope i got that part right.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #98564 is a reply to message #90672] |
Sat, 04 September 2010 21:23 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Just a follow up. My foray into carb tuning turned up a bad selector valve. That expanded into dropping the tanks cleaning and painting them, coating with a home made lizard skin, running hard lines, hooking the generator up to the generator port rather than just Teeing it off the aux tank, seems like more...
Anyway, took it out today after putting about $100 of gas into it, works great. I ended up putting 72 jets in and a stronger power piston spring as I wanted the power piston to open earlier...
According to my wideband:
It runs a high 15's - 16:1 on the freeway.
drops to the 13's when I put my foot into it.
I can feel it run better, it was worth it, really!
| emerystora wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 11:48 |
On Jul 1, 2010, at 10:36 AM, Keith V wrote:
>
>
> Well I ordered the Edlebrock kit last night. I figured I had to order jets anyway.
>
> IF the wire size is the same a springs with more turns will be softer, it's a longer wire and so more floppy...
>
> I think my problem is the spring is so light the power piston never comes up when the vacuum drops, this coupled with too large of jets make the mixture rich at light throttle and lean at hard throttle as the power piston is always all the way down.
>
> Make sense to me, We'll see in a few days when I get it back together.
>
>
> --
> Keith
Keith
You are thinking about this wrong. If the wire size is the same and you have more turns it will give more pressure, not less. Each turn on the spring gives some pressure. The more turns that you have, the more pressure from one end of the spring to the other.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Is there a way to check the power piston with the carb assembled? [message #98609 is a reply to message #98564] |
Sun, 05 September 2010 07:04 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Keith V wrote on Sat, 04 September 2010 21:23 |
Just a follow up. My foray into carb tuning turned up a bad selector valve. That expanded into dropping the tanks cleaning and painting them, coating with a home made lizard skin, running hard lines, hooking the generator up to the generator port rather than just Teeing it off the aux tank, seems like more...
Anyway, took it out today after putting about $100 of gas into it, works great. I ended up putting 72 jets in and a stronger power piston spring as I wanted the power piston to open earlier...
According to my wideband:
It runs a high 15's - 16:1 on the freeway.
drops to the 13's when I put my foot into it.
I can feel it run better, it was worth it, really!
|
tell us about the home made lizard skin.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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