Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89589 is a reply to message #89550] |
Wed, 23 June 2010 06:50   |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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George,
The next time you have your coach's front end up in the air and
safely blocked, have someone get in, start it and put it in gear while
you watch the front wheels and suspension. Have them accelerate, then
hit the brakes. Much of the squirm you see will be caused by worn
rubber parts. It looks scarier than it really is but it gives you a
real good idea of what you need to work on. Urethane bushings are
not a bandaid for other problems, they must be repaird first.
Urethane is the final measure for removing play from the front
suspension.
You will hear many "car" guys tell you that urethane bushings make
the suspension react to nearly every road irregularity and in
automotive applications, that is mostly true. It is not true,
however, with the GMC application.
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 2:36 PM, George Rudawsky <GeorgeRud@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Do the bushings contribute to the "wiggle" as well? I imagine that any suspension parts that have play in them will do so.
> --
> George Rudawsky
> Chicago, IL
> 75 Palm Beach
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89593 is a reply to message #89536] |
Wed, 23 June 2010 07:32 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Gary Casey wrote on Tue, 22 June 2010 15:50 |
I've heard people talk about lower control arm bushings that are "shot," but I've not heard how you tell if they are. My coach is going in for ball joint work - how do I tell if I need bushings?
Gary
'73 23
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Simply look at them. They will be rotten . If the rod that goes through them is not in the center then they need to be replaced. The bottom ones will be the worse. I put urethane in both the top and bottom. Most people these days are putting rubber in the top and urethane in the bottom.
The urethane ones a re a simple job. You can easily press them in with a vice.
Note on ball GMC ball joints: It is normal to have some play in the joints. I do not remember the specs but they are in the GMC maintenance manual. Do not let someone convince you they need to bet replaced if they are in specs. The new ones will have the same amount of play and you just wasted your money.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89598 is a reply to message #89589] |
Wed, 23 June 2010 08:30 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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George,
I agree 100% with Steve, our first 4000 mile tour in Double Trouble was with
rubber bushed lower control arms. I replaced the control arms with a pair
from reinforced ones from Steve with Urethane bushings.
Last year we could not feel any difference in the ride but the steering was
much tighter.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Ferguson
You will hear many "car" guys tell you that urethane bushings make
the suspension react to nearly every road irregularity and in
automotive applications, that is mostly true. It is not true,
however, with the GMC application.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89641 is a reply to message #89536] |
Wed, 23 June 2010 18:30 |
Gail Marks Cruiser
Messages: 125
Registered: August 2009
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
Glad I'm not the only one who has found the bolt on the intermediate shaft really needs to be tight.
I felt the fitting was so loose before installing the bolt,
I gave it a quick squeeze in the press first.
In normal use I felt the clearance on the coupling to be O.K. But if the power steering pump failed, and arm-strong steering was required,
I could see the remote possibility of stripping the splines.
Mark Bennett
Gail & Mark's Cruiser
Gold Coast, Australia.
Motorhoming Lifestyle.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89671 is a reply to message #89596] |
Wed, 23 June 2010 22:25 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Bruce,
Later you might consider the Q Bag system.
The improved spring rate at the rear makes lot of differance.
I was not a bliver till I had to put one on as a proto type when Bounds and
we teamed up to refine the 4 Bag unit.
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:55 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> When I got my coach there was several inches of steering wheel play.
> For the required safety check, the idler arm and relay arm along with a
> couple tie-rod ends and the steering intermediate shaft were replaced with
> Cinnibar parts.
>
> When I picked it up there was a slight improvement but not much. I also
> knew the bogie bearings needed to be done so I did that and replaced the
> steering box with a Napa rebuilt. The new bogie bearings improved the
> wig-wag, but the steering box still had alot of play. Napa replaced the
> steering box which I immediately sent to someone else to be rebuilt. I was
> told it was not a good rebuild and he rebuilt it right. That improved
> things alot but still the steering was not great.
>
> While my engine was being rebuilt I had a set of Steve's urethane bushings
> installed. After the engine was re-installed they tried to do a front-end
> alignment, but their alignment computer reported too much play between the
> front wheels. Thats when we noticed the movement in the new relay arm. It
> was allowing the driver's side wheel to move about 1" before the passenger
> side would start to move. I installed a Dave Lenzi relay arm and WOW! what
> a difference!
>
> The idler arm was also allowing some play on the passenger wheel so I just
> replaced it with a Dave Lenzi unit as well. At the same time I installed
> Tru-Tracks on the middle axle only. I just came back from a 4 day trip and
> for the first time I can relax and drive comfortably. The passenger side
> went onto the gravel shoulder once on a narrow road. I was able to bring it
> back without a white-knuckle experience.
>
> One thing I have noticed is the bolt clamping the steering intermediate
> shaft universal joint to the steering box really needs to be tightened down
> to tighten onto the steering box shaft. I was sure I was going to break the
> casting before it was tight! Make it tight else you will have alot of play
> there.
>
>
> Just my experience.
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI and ESC.
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89681 is a reply to message #89660] |
Thu, 24 June 2010 07:25 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| RF_Burns wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 21:29 |
Larry,
Thats the one I am talking about:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/781
I had to use a 3/8 drive ratchet, so maybe its not as tight as I think, but its about all I could do with a that ratchet to get it tight! It made a big difference, but it all added up in the end to a comfortable drive.
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that must be a common problem as i've seen 2 other coaches with those splines very worn from being loose.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89692 is a reply to message #89643] |
Thu, 24 June 2010 08:17 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| ljdavick wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 19:35 |
If the intermediate shaft is between the steering wheel and the steering box, then mine is very loose, sloppy even. Should that be tightened up? I though it needed to be loose for some reason.
Maybe that's contributing to my sloppy steering.
|
There should be little or no rotational play in any part of the steering shaft between the gear box and the steering wheel. But there should be longitudinal movement.
The shaft comes down from the steering wheel and pokes out the floor of the cockpit, ending in a spline. Over that spline goes the gap of a CV joint. The other side of the CV joint is fitted over a different spline in top of the blue slip-spline. That slip-spline has four ears, and fits down into a female counterpart, the bottom of which is connected to a universal joint. The other half of the u-joint is fitted onto the gear box. The purpose of the slip-spline is to allow that part of the steering shaft to compress and extend with the flexing of the motorhome body and with changes in shaft length resulting from precession of the VC and U-joints.
Play can occur in the bottom bearing of the steering shaft (above the CV joint and spline), in the upper spline, in the CV joint, in the blue slip spline, and in the U-joint. Parts of these can also become corroded and bind up.
In the steering column itself, there is a plastic ball joint that allows the tilt feature of the steering wheel. This can also wear, causing play.
Test for play by putting your hand on the bottom of intermediate shaft right where it goes into the steering box. Have a helper wiggle the (unlocked) steering wheel, using just two fingers and very little force. All the movement of the steering wheel should correlate with movement felt by your hand. If it doesn't, move your hand up the chain until you find the play. In my experience, binding is more common than play in the intermediate shaft.
If you find no play in the steering shaft system, then it is either upstream or downstream from that point. Upstream is in the steering column itself, and downstream is in the gear box or in the idler, relay arm, pitman arm, drag link, or tie rods.
As you can see, getting rid of all the play requires considering a large number of play opportunities in the system. Don't spend money until you find it, and then start there.
Rick "the gear box is often unfairly maligned" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Lower control arm bushings [message #89766 is a reply to message #89692] |
Thu, 24 June 2010 19:28 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Nicely done Rick!
Mike in NS
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Rick Denney <rick@rickdenney.com> wrote:
>
>
> ljdavick wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 19:35
> > If the intermediate shaft is between the steering wheel and the steering
> box, then mine is very loose, sloppy even. Should that be tightened up? I
> though it needed to be loose for some reason.
> >
> > Maybe that's contributing to my sloppy steering.
>
>
> There should be little or no rotational play in any part of the steering
> shaft between the gear box and the steering wheel. But there should be
> longitudinal movement.
>
> The shaft comes down from the steering wheel and pokes out the floor of the
> cockpit, ending in a spline. Over that spline goes the gap of a CV joint.
> The other side of the CV joint is fitted over a different spline in top of
> the blue slip-spline. That slip-spline has four ears, and fits down into a
> female counterpart, the bottom of which is connected to a universal joint.
> The other half of the u-joint is fitted onto the gear box. The purpose of
> the slip-spline is to allow that part of the steering shaft to compress and
> extend with the flexing of the motorhome body and with changes in shaft
> length resulting from precession of the VC and U-joints.
>
> Play can occur in the bottom bearing of the steering shaft (above the CV
> joint and spline), in the upper spline, in the CV joint, in the blue slip
> spline, and in the U-joint. Parts of these can also become corroded and bind
> up.
>
> In the steering column itself, there is a plastic ball joint that allows
> the tilt feature of the steering wheel. This can also wear, causing play.
>
> Test for play by putting your hand on the bottom of intermediate shaft
> right where it goes into the steering box. Have a helper wiggle the
> (unlocked) steering wheel, using just two fingers and very little force. All
> the movement of the steering wheel should correlate with movement felt by
> your hand. If it doesn't, move your hand up the chain until you find the
> play. In my experience, binding is more common than play in the intermediate
> shaft.
>
> If you find no play in the steering shaft system, then it is either
> upstream or downstream from that point. Upstream is in the steering column
> itself, and downstream is in the gear box or in the idler, relay arm, pitman
> arm, drag link, or tie rods.
>
> As you can see, getting rid of all the play requires considering a large
> number of play opportunities in the system. Don't spend money until you find
> it, and then start there.
>
> Rick "the gear box is often unfairly maligned" Denney
> --
> '73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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