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| Another Boost Switch Question [message #89075] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 00:54  |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
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I just installed 2 6 volt golf cart batteries for the Yellowstone trip (we leave in about 7 hours) and when I go to check the wiring, it act like the boost solenoid is closed when the boost switch is off. There is continuity across the solenoid. If I turn the boost switch to boost, then disconnect the starting battery it clicks and the house power goes out (house batteries still connected). I am considering swapping the entire connections on the major posts of the solenoid. What are the smaller posts on the solenoid for and will swapping them do the trick?
As you look at the solenoid from the front of the coach looking aft, the connections on the left go to the house and the connections on the right go to the starting battery and starter.
It works and I can make it to the first nights campsite Richfield, UT KOA, but if you have any ideas, I'd be happy to hear them.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
[Updated on: Fri, 18 June 2010 00:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89081 is a reply to message #89075] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 05:24  |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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The smaller posts are for control. On mine, not an original, the left post
is connected to electrical ground and the right post runs to the booster
switch.
I'd disconnect at least one bank of batteries and check the voltage of both.
It sounds like you might have a bad solenoid and a dead battery as a result.
Good luck.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Randy <Acrosport2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I just installed 2 6 volt golf cart batteries for the Yellowstone trip (we
> leave in about 7 hours) and when I go to check the wiring, it act like the
> boost solenoid is closed when the boost switch is off. There is continuity
> across the solenoid. If I turn the boost switch to boost it clicks and the
> house power goes out (house batteries still connected). If I switch it again
> and disconnect the starting battery the house side stays on, but as soon as
> I reconnect the starting battery the solenoind clicks and I'm back to two
> batteries. I am considering swapping the entire connections on the major
> posts of the solenoid. What are the smaller posts on the solenoid for and
> will swapping them do the trick?
>
> As you look at the solenoid from the front of the coach looking aft, the
> connections on the left go to the house and the connections on the right go
> to the starting battery and starter.
>
> It works and I can make it to the first nights campsite Richfield, UT KOA,
> but if you have any ideas, I'd be happy to hear them.
> --
> Randy
> 1973 26' Painted Desert
> Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
> _______________________________________________
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--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: Another Boost Switch Question [message #89089 is a reply to message #89075] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 07:28 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Luvn737s wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 01:54 |
I just installed 2 6 volt golf cart batteries for the Yellowstone trip (we leave in about 7 hours) and when I go to check the wiring, it act like the boost solenoid is closed when the boost switch is off. There is continuity across the solenoid. If I turn the boost switch to boost, then disconnect the starting battery it clicks and the house power goes out (house batteries still connected). I am considering swapping the entire connections on the major posts of the solenoid. What are the smaller posts on the solenoid for and will swapping them do the trick?
As you look at the solenoid from the front of the coach looking aft, the connections on the left go to the house and the connections on the right go to the starting battery and starter.
It works and I can make it to the first nights campsite Richfield, UT KOA, but if you have any ideas, I'd be happy to hear them.
|
Randy,
I have been running this through my brain since I first read it and the only answer I can come up with is the the Boost switch (if original) is installed upside down. Or maybe the tags got switched? (see the last paragraph)
Contactors like the boost circuit uses are Normally Open. Normally close (what yours seems to be) are very VERY rare, VERY Expensive and usually a very different package.
Changing the connections on the any of posts will probably make no difference.
Try relocating the tags. Mine has Bat Normal on top and Bat Boost below.
Have a good time in Yellowstone.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89097 is a reply to message #89089] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 08:02 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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I suppose one could check the voltage on the switch terminal to see which
way the switch is oriented electrically.
It is possible that the switch is providing a ground circuit instead of
power. Mine is not.
Is the case of the solenoid warm to the touch when the switch is in
"normal"?
If you are anxious to get on the road, remove the ground lead to the
solenoid. If the machine seems normal you are good to go, but probably can't
boost without a jumper cable. If it isn't almost normal, then you probably
need to replace the solenoid or at least isolate one bank from it.
My suspicion is that you have a dead battery bank. That might be worth
discovering before heading out.
BTW, my old boost switch failed closed; I suppose that was because it wasn't
designed for continuous duty under heavy loads such as starting and the
limits were exceeded by someone. I don't remember whether it clicked or not,
but I think so.
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89099 is a reply to message #89097] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 08:15 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Ken Coit wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 09:02 |
I suppose one could check the voltage on the switch terminal to see which
way the switch is oriented electrically.
It is possible that the switch is providing a ground circuit instead of power. Mine is not.
Is the case of the solenoid warm to the touch when the switch is in "normal"?
If you are anxious to get on the road, remove the ground lead to the solenoid. If the machine seems normal you are good to go, but probably can't boost without a jumper cable. If it isn't almost normal, then you probably need to replace the solenoid or at least isolate one bank from it.
My suspicion is that you have a dead battery bank. That might be worth discovering before heading out.
BTW, my old boost switch failed closed; I suppose that was because it wasn't designed for continuous duty under heavy loads such as starting and the limits were exceeded by someone. I don't remember whether it clicked or not, but I think so.
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
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Ken,
You say your Boost Switch failed closed?
Do you mean the switch or the contactor (solonoid)?
Your coach should have had a momentary switch and may have had a contactor that was not intended for continues duty. A '73 vintage coach will have a maintained contact switch and a contactor for continues duty unless the parts were changed.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89115 is a reply to message #89099] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 10:44 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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Yes, the solenoid failed closed and the switch is not momentary. I ought to
replace that PO feature as well. Perhaps I'll just put a little clip lead on
the solenoid and ignore the switch. Seems to me that I have seen that
solution before, maybe on Dave Greenberg's coach. The new solenoid is heavy
duty, but it still doesn't need to be on unless the engine won't turn over
as I also have a combiner for the charger.
Some days I think I am trying to resurrect a parts coach that was made to
operate, barely, before I came along. I know the PO had two other coaches in
running condition.
The new radio works, but only when I turn on the lights. I think I did
that!
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Ken Coit wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 09:02
> > I suppose one could check the voltage on the switch terminal to see which
> > way the switch is oriented electrically.
> >
> > It is possible that the switch is providing a ground circuit instead of
> power. Mine is not.
> >
> > Is the case of the solenoid warm to the touch when the switch is in
> "normal"?
> >
> > If you are anxious to get on the road, remove the ground lead to the
> solenoid. If the machine seems normal you are good to go, but probably can't
> boost without a jumper cable. If it isn't almost normal, then you probably
> need to replace the solenoid or at least isolate one bank from it.
> >
> > My suspicion is that you have a dead battery bank. That might be worth
> discovering before heading out.
> >
> > BTW, my old boost switch failed closed; I suppose that was because it
> wasn't designed for continuous duty under heavy loads such as starting and
> the limits were exceeded by someone. I don't remember whether it clicked or
> not, but I think so.
> > --
> > Ken Coit, ND7N
>
> Ken,
>
> You say your Boost Switch failed closed?
> Do you mean the switch or the contactor (solonoid)?
>
> Your coach should have had a momentary switch and may have had a contactor
> that was not intended for continues duty. A '73 vintage coach will have a
> maintained contact switch and a contactor for continues duty unless the
> parts were changed.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89143 is a reply to message #89116] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 19:02 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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Ah! That's a good explanation. I guess I'll go read those Ken H. wiring
diagrams again. I tried to just jumper from the old connector to the new,
but I guess I failed.
Meanwhile, I found my new boost relay had paralleled the batteries until
they were very discharged. The non-momentary boost switch is no longer
connected to the boost relay, I have installed an alligator clip should I
ever need to boost. Is there a source for the momentary switch that should
be in that circuit?
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Roger Black <r1black@comcast.net> wrote:
> Looks like you hooked up the old radio light wire to your new power
> wire. Just switch wires to the old power wire. At least you know
> which wire needs to be tied off now. <G>
> Roger Black
> 77 Birchaven
> Burns, Tn
>
>
>
>
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--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89147 is a reply to message #89115] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 20:02 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| Ken Coit wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 08:44 |
Yes, the solenoid failed closed and the switch is not momentary. I ought to
replace that PO feature as well. ...
|
Ken,
I see you have a Royale. The "not momentary" switch might not be a "PO feature." The way I understand it, many transmodes, of all years, came with switches that work just like the early coaches.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89151 is a reply to message #89147] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 20:31 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Right. My '76 Birchaven has a non-momentary boost switch. If it didn't I'd
have to change it. :-)
But I do have a continuous duty solenoid relay.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
> I see you have a Royale. The "not momentary" switch might not be a "PO
> feature." The way I understand it, many transmodes, of all years, came with
> switches that work just like the early coaches.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89157 is a reply to message #89151] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 21:11 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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Mine is now wired to be permanently on or off until one opens the passenger
side hatch and moves the alligator clip. Ken H., why do you like the
Transmode version? The only times I have wanted to use it was when the
batteries discharged one another.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> Right. My '76 Birchaven has a non-momentary boost switch. If it didn't
> I'd
> have to change it. :-)
>
> But I do have a continuous duty solenoid relay.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I see you have a Royale. The "not momentary" switch might not be a "PO
> > feature." The way I understand it, many transmodes, of all years, came
> with
> > switches that work just like the early coaches.
> > --
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> List Information and Subscription Options:
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--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89159 is a reply to message #89157] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 21:44 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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My bias toward the non-momentary switch is really based more on my
pre-combiner practice than any real current need: Before installing the
combiner I'd turn boost to ON when parked with 120 vac available so the
converter could maintain the chassis battery. Easier than using a jumper
wire.
Similarly, pre-combiner, using the generator to power power the chassis in
the event of alternator failure and be done just by closing the boost
switch.
But even now, post-combiner, if I should have to use boost for starting, I'd
rather not have to contort around to use my left hand for the starter switch
while the right one holds the boost switch.
But then, with CRS being what it is, maybe I SHOULD have a momentary switch.
:-)
What I really don't understand is that "when the batteries discharged one
another". That shouldn't happen, regardless of the switch type.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Ken Coit <ktcoit@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mine is now wired to be permanently on or off until one opens the passenger
> side hatch and moves the alligator clip. Ken H., why do you like the
> Transmode version? The only times I have wanted to use it was when the
> batteries discharged one another.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Another Boost Switch Question [message #89163 is a reply to message #89075] |
Fri, 18 June 2010 22:42 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
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I get the feeling that the boost solenoid shouldn't be grounded, but I have a ground wire from one of the attach bolts to ground. The solenoid is mounted on rubber mounts, so I assume they don't want the thing grounded.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89184 is a reply to message #89182] |
Sat, 19 June 2010 05:39 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Ken H.,
The reason you have a combiner instead of a solid wire is so the batteries
are not connected all the time. If they are connected all the time and
aren't in exactly the same condition, including chemistry, voltage, internal
resistance etc., the high one will discharge into the low one, the new high
one will discharge into the new low one, ad infinitum, until, in my most
recent case, the boost solenoid drops out for lack of voltage from whatever
it is attached to. An isolator will also prevent this, but at the cost of
some voltage at the load.
You are correct about the location of the boost switch, it should be on the
left side of the steering wheel. I guess ergonomics wasn't a consideration.
On the humorous side, they must have figured that if you were spry enough to
climb into the cockpit, that you could put both hands to the right of the
wheel on occasion.
> _______________________________________________
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--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89185 is a reply to message #89184] |
Sat, 19 June 2010 05:53 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Ken H.,
I reread my earlier comment, "The only time I wanted to use it was when the
batteries discharged one another." That was very poorly phrased. I think I
understand the reason for your confusion. I did it. Please pardon my lecture
on batteries, combiners, isolators, etc.
On reflection, what I was trying to convey was that if the boost switch and
solenoid setting have already discharged the batteries, then the boost
switch is useless and I would rather have the inconvenience of using the
momentary feature than not have the boost when when I need it.
With the mysterious draining of batteries resolved, I am back on the same
playing field as everyone else. If I replace the boost switch with a
momentary, I will move it to the left side of the wheel. Perhaps just making
it a feature of the start position is a more ergonomic way to accomplish
that by boosting every time. What's the downside of that?
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89193 is a reply to message #89184] |
Sat, 19 June 2010 07:30 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Ken,
I can't agree with that analysis: If you have a weak battery, even a very
weak one from a shorted cell, it will load any paralleled battery and the
stronger battery will eventually reach the voltage of the weak one. Then
the process stops. There is no way for the formerly stronger battery to
become the weaker, causing the oscillating weak-strong situation you
describe. Equilibrium will always be achieved at the voltage of the weak
battery -- simple matter of the electrons' immutable desire to flow
"downhill".
There is nothing inherently wrong with paralleling batteries -- witness how
many RV's use multiple 12 VDC batteries. Some boaters make a strong case
for that being preferable to series connection because of redundancy.
The combiner's purpose is not to keep the batteries in parallel under load;
quite the contrary, it's to parallel them only when there's charge voltage
available.
Ken H.
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Ken Coit <ktcoit@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken H.,
>
> The reason you have a combiner instead of a solid wire is so the batteries
> are not connected all the time. If they are connected all the time and
> aren't in exactly the same condition, including chemistry, voltage,
> internal
> resistance etc., the high one will discharge into the low one, the new high
> one will discharge into the new low one, ad infinitum, until, in my most
> recent case, the boost solenoid drops out for lack of voltage from whatever
> it is attached to. An isolator will also prevent this, but at the cost of
> some voltage at the load.
>
> You are correct about the location of the boost switch, it should be on the
> left side of the steering wheel. I guess ergonomics wasn't a consideration.
> On the humorous side, they must have figured that if you were spry enough
> to
> climb into the cockpit, that you could put both hands to the right of the
> wheel on occasion.
>
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another Boost Switch Question [message #89199 is a reply to message #89193] |
Sat, 19 June 2010 08:21 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Yes, I agree that the combiner isn't doing anything more than connecting a
charged battery to a less charged battery and that it has nothing to do with
discharging if it is working correctly.
As for paralleling batteries, I have two that used to be at roughly 12.6
each and they are now at 2 and less than two; the boost relay finally
dropped out. I believe that if you parallel batteries that aren't exactly
alike, they will mutually discharge one another. I'll charge them up and put
an ammeter on the paralleled batteries, standing alone with nothing else
connected and let you know what I find.
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:30 AM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I can't agree with that analysis: If you have a weak battery, even a very
> weak one from a shorted cell, it will load any paralleled battery and the
> stronger battery will eventually reach the voltage of the weak one. Then
> the process stops. There is no way for the formerly stronger battery to
> become the weaker, causing the oscillating weak-strong situation you
> describe. Equilibrium will always be achieved at the voltage of the weak
> battery -- simple matter of the electrons' immutable desire to flow
> "downhill".
>
> There is nothing inherently wrong with paralleling batteries -- witness how
> many RV's use multiple 12 VDC batteries. Some boaters make a strong case
> for that being preferable to series connection because of redundancy.
>
> The combiner's purpose is not to keep the batteries in parallel under load;
> quite the contrary, it's to parallel them only when there's charge voltage
> available.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Ken Coit <ktcoit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ken H.,
> >
> > The reason you have a combiner instead of a solid wire is so the
> batteries
> > are not connected all the time. If they are connected all the time and
> > aren't in exactly the same condition, including chemistry, voltage,
> > internal
> > resistance etc., the high one will discharge into the low one, the new
> high
> > one will discharge into the new low one, ad infinitum, until, in my most
> > recent case, the boost solenoid drops out for lack of voltage from
> whatever
> > it is attached to. An isolator will also prevent this, but at the cost of
> > some voltage at the load.
> >
> > You are correct about the location of the boost switch, it should be on
> the
> > left side of the steering wheel. I guess ergonomics wasn't a
> consideration.
> > On the humorous side, they must have figured that if you were spry enough
> > to
> > climb into the cockpit, that you could put both hands to the right of the
> > wheel on occasion.
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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