Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM
| [GMCnet] REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM [message #87545] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 15:26  |
Charles Aulgur
Messages: 78
Registered: March 2006
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I sent an e-mail to Wes C. last week to inquire if he wanted to put
an article about the brake torque reaction modification in his
newsletter but he declined as I expected because he does not
recommend any modifications to the OEM GMC. I had written a few
articles before in his newsletter and one of them turned out to be
partially false. It had to do with adding the 2" spacers to the
front wheels where I predicated major failures by doing so. I was
correct about them adding over 400% increase in loading on the
bearings but I was proven to be wrong about the predicted failures.
Just like in the brake reaction arm system, a lot of people dodn't
believe what I was telling them and they installed them and have
driven thousands of miles with no known bearing failures. So you see
I don't know what I'm talking about all the time. If you want to
read a funny story Wes put in his news letter about how dangerous the
GMCs are. Just look in his newsletter index under "Bear Bait" and you
can see why you should not leave your front windows open when camping
in Bear country.
Back to why Wes called me. He wanted to make sure I was aware of the
potential litigation I was exposing myself to by recommending people
install a brake system on their GMCs that is not DOT approved. Jim,
Rick and I have talked about this many times and we are well aware
we could loss ever dollar we have if someone should have a serious
accident and insurance companys and lawyers get involved, even if it
was not your fault. We have decided it is worth the reisk if we can
save some lives by people being able to avoid a serious accident by
having much better brakes. Wes also said that we could probably get
this modification approved by DOT for around 50k$ an he would be
willing to help. So all you folks need to think about this and maybe
we could get each GMC club to kick in a few thousand and get it done,
Chuck Aulgur
La Mesa, CA
76 Royale with full six wheel brakes that are not approved by DOT
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| Re: [GMCnet] REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM [message #87546 is a reply to message #87545] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 16:08  |
jayrabe
Messages: 509
Registered: June 2009
Location: Portland, OR
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Like a lot of people on the net, I've been following the discussions carefully. I'm convinced (even without vector analysis) that at some point I want to upgrade to Chuck's brakes, but also like others, "at some point" is limited by budget. And even after the $4000 parts purchase, unless you do the work yourself, installation costs are not trivial, though I've never seen an estimate of that.
But I'm wondering about the high cost. I assume these kits are basically hand-built, and don't have any feel for what Chuck and Rick are charging for their shop time to do the building, though I'm confident it's more than reasonable, still, it's bound to be a labor intensive process, and, to my point, there might be significant savings if it could be mass-produced, or at least batch-produced. Without guaranteed orders, though, I can understand reluctance to invest the many thousands of dollars to make that happen. So, is a group buy an option?
And another question to Chuck and Rick: Is the design stable at this point? I've seen mention of rev-1 and rev-2, so the question is, are other revisions in the works?
And one final thing about the liability. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems that one might be able to do a legally binding waiver of liability signed by purchasers, stating they understand the lack of DOT approval and holding Chuck harmless for any failures or consequences. Seems that would be a lot easier/cheaper than $50k to get DOT approval.
Thanks as always,
J
76 PB
Portland, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM [message #87555 is a reply to message #87546] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 17:48 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Jay,
these are not a hand fabricated item.
All the parts are formed at specialty shops on machines where holes
are punched and machine done on CNC machines.
Rick F is a professional designer and designs each part to be done that way.
If you saw Chucks parts layout, you might detected a half ass welding
on them. This happened as we need to get it to him over the weekend so
I had to do the welding myself.
All the other ones were welded by our welders that weld our filter
housings and they always to considerably better than I do
We have 4 sets operating at this minute.
Having people sign anything other than an awareness of what they have
as information is about all that makes sense, as they can always get
to you if we are negligent
We will be consulting with our corperate legal beagle as usual ..
.
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Like a lot of people on the net, I've been following the discussions carefully. I'm convinced (even without vector analysis) that at some point I want to upgrade to Chuck's brakes, but also like others, "at some point" is limited by budget. And even after the $4000 parts purchase, unless you do the work yourself, installation costs are not trivial, though I've never seen an estimate of that.
>
> But I'm wondering about the high cost. I assume these kits are basically hand-built, and don't have any feel for what Chuck and Rick are charging for their shop time to do the building, though I'm confident it's more than reasonable, still, it's bound to be a labor intensive process, and, to my point, there might be significant savings if it could be mass-produced, or at least batch-produced. Without guaranteed orders, though, I can understand reluctance to invest the many thousands of dollars to make that happen. So, is a group buy an option?
>
> And another question to Chuck and Rick: Is the design stable at this point? I've seen mention of rev-1 and rev-2, so the question is, are other revisions in the works?
>
> And one final thing about the liability. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems that one might be able to do a legally binding waiver of liability signed by purchasers, stating they understand the lack of DOT approval and holding Chuck harmless for any failures or consequences. Seems that would be a lot easier/cheaper than $50k to get DOT approval.
>
> Thanks as always,
>
> J
> 76 PB
> Portland, OR
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM [message #87558 is a reply to message #87546] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 18:29 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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On Jun 6, 2010, at 3:08 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
>
> Like a lot of people on the net, I've been following the discussions carefully. I'm convinced (even without vector analysis) that at some point I want to upgrade to Chuck's brakes, but also like others, "at some point" is limited by budget. And even after the $4000 parts purchase, unless you do the work yourself, installation costs are not trivial, though I've never seen an estimate of that.
>
> But I'm wondering about the high cost. I assume these kits are basically hand-built, and don't have any feel for what Chuck and Rick are charging for their shop time to do the building, though I'm confident it's more than reasonable, still, it's bound to be a labor intensive process, and, to my point, there might be significant savings if it could be mass-produced, or at least batch-produced. Without guaranteed orders, though, I can understand reluctance to invest the many thousands of dollars to make that happen. So, is a group buy an option?
>
> And another question to Chuck and Rick: Is the design stable at this point? I've seen mention of rev-1 and rev-2, so the question is, are other revisions in the works?
>
> And one final thing about the liability. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems that one might be able to do a legally binding waiver of liability signed by purchasers, stating they understand the lack of DOT approval and holding Chuck harmless for any failures or consequences. Seems that would be a lot easier/cheaper than $50k to get DOT approval.
>
>
Any good lawyer can usually get around waivers so they are usually not worth the paper they are written on. They usually do not stand up in court -- especially when you have a relatively unsophistacated (sp?) non-technical buyer and a smart designer who should have known better.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| [GMCnet] Legal Liability(was: REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM) [message #87580 is a reply to message #87555] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 20:45 |
Patrick Flowers
Messages: 195
Registered: February 2004
Karma: -24
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DOT certification would have nothing to do with legal liability. For some
reason, Wes likes to conflate these two often - the cynic in me says
that's likely due to the business that he's in.
In reality, anyone can sue you anytime for anything. That's just our
wonderful legal system here in the US. There is no way to inoculate
yourself from law suits. Certainly no type of "dot gov" certification
would help - just ask the aviation industry. Every nut and bolt on a
"certificated" airplane must be approved and they are likely second only
to the medical industry for litigation burden.
My $.02
Patrick
--
GMCnet Listmaster
'73 CanyonLands
Tyrone GA
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Patrick Flowers
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'73 CanyonLands
Tyrone, GA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Legal Liability(was: REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM) [message #87603 is a reply to message #87592] |
Mon, 07 June 2010 07:01 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Rick,
I have been tempted to mention that a couple of times here but
figured that was your business, not mine. There is a closeness in
this community that is unmatched by those of any other group of MH
owners. Chuck, you, the two Jims are in the forefront of contributers
to this community.
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 8:15 PM, rick flanagan <rflanagan@powis.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jay,
> Have I mentioned that Chuck and I are NOT financially invested in this. We do not fabricate or sell anything. I won't speak for Chuck's motivations, but I designed this as a favor to Jim, to repay him for only some of the zillion things he's done for me. Plus I get to keep it.
>
> Rick
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Legal Liability(was: REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM) [message #87607 is a reply to message #87592] |
Mon, 07 June 2010 07:52 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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Rick is involved with theings catering to the GMC community in the best way possible for him-- as an enthusiast and thats where exposure unfortunatly probably needs to be. there really in not the profit built into a limited production part cating exclusively to a nich market such as ours to make it worthwhile when you consider all of the things a company gamefully seeking to produce "perfect" parts. There is the liability insurance that would eat most any profit you would hope to make, failure and product testing that would be required then there is writing an instruction amnual which someone who can;t figure out how to pump air into their tires would need, a parts package covering any situation on the install then marketing, inventory expendature and all of that. Guys, understand there just is not enough business to be had to go through all the hoops to actually produce a viable product for the general community.
I have had people upset because of the lack there of that the flemsy instruction that is put out for the quad bag system. I tell them the opperative phrase that hold true with any part products for a niche industry "it ALMOST fits perfect" which sometimes only goes to frustrate folks further. This is a serious issue us GMC vendors deal with every day. No, these coaches are NOT all manufactured equally, you must use your noodle to figure out some of the things they did to some coaches. Thats just the way it is.
Coachmen hacked out window openings with a fire axe-- it looks like, there's no telling some of the plumbing and wiring on the "Transmode" coaches and the early coaches came with charred floorboard-- no extra charge"! You must be vigulant and understand the intent and how to guard from hurting yourself and your coach. The coaches are getting "midrif bulge", doors are coming apart, frames are bending, body pads are crushing, high speed chains in the trannys are stretching, rubbers are shrinking with each day and windshields are fogging into oblivion with no help from anyone. So like whose fault is that-- call on Murphy, Mother nature or maybe just fate to explain some of the issues associated with the GMC!!
My observation--- so be vigulant yourself on things you do, put yourself at just as much responsibility as anyone else changing things on your coach and if some "unexpected result" happens know that you were the one that made the decision to step out there in harms way. I mean, we're all in this together...
Jim Bounds
------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: rick flanagan <rflanagan@powis.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 11:15:01 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Legal Liability(was: REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM)
Jay,
Have I mentioned that Chuck and I are NOT financially invested in this. We do not fabricate or sell anything. I won't speak for Chuck's motivations, but I designed this as a favor to Jim, to repay him for only some of the zillion things he's done for me. Plus I get to keep it.
Rick
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| Re: [GMCnet] REACTION ARM BRAKE SYSTEM [message #87622 is a reply to message #87558] |
Mon, 07 June 2010 09:39 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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| emerystora wrote on Sun, 06 June 2010 19:29 |
Any good lawyer can usually get around waivers so they are usually not worth the paper they are written on. They usually do not stand up in court -- especially when you have a relatively unsophistacated (sp?) non-technical buyer and a smart designer who should have known better.
|
True. You cannot contract away liability for negligence.
The issue may not be negligence, however. The issue may be whether the lack of DOT certification constitutes prima facie--on the face of it--evidence of negligence.
In tort liability cases in Texas where I have some familiarity with the law (I expect product liability is similar), a plaintiff must prove actual or constructive knowledge of a defect in order to prove negligence--the manufacturer knew or should have known that the defect existed. Then, the plaintiff must prove that the manufacturer did not take reasonable action to correct the defect.
The standard of proof in Texas for civil cases is "the preponderance of the evidence". This is an easier standard than for criminal cases ("beyond a shadow of a doubt").
I don't know where Texas stands in the pantheon of liability cases, but I suspect it's in the middle somewhere.
If the lack of DOT certification constituted evidence of negligence on the face of it, then Wes's warnings are well-founded. If not, and if they have to prove that the product has a defect, it might be a little harder for them to make the case, though it might also be ruinously expensive to defend against, even if successful. The plaintiff would, no doubt, find a ready supply of "experts" to testify that the idea is dangerous and foolhardy, in return for their expert-witness fee. The DOT certification may not help much, as Patrick suggests, unless there is a prima facie issue. Then, having the certification can't really help but not having it can surely hurt.
I suspect the vulnerability could be easily identified by attempting to buy product liability insurance. That's probably where I would start in any case.
Jim B. makes a plea for all of us to recognize that we are working for each other. That's true. But don't underestimate the fact that the owner might have no say in who gets sued.
Rick "with some old courtroom experience in tort liability cases" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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