Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Q. for Emery????
| Q. for Emery???? [message #87429] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 17:50  |
g.winger
Messages: 792
Registered: February 2008
Location: Warrenton,Missouri
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Emery, does antifreeze really "wear out" and need to be changed on a regular basis like 3-6 yrs. like some recommend? Also, I work for GM and have herd of cases of and lawsuits over Dexcool gelling. Herd anything about this? Thanks,,PL
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| Re: Q. for Emery???? [message #87432 is a reply to message #87429] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 18:30  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| g.winger wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 18:50 |
Emery,
Does antifreeze really "wear out" and need to be changed on a regular basis like 3-6 yrs. like some recommend?
Also, I work for GM and have herd of cases of and lawsuits over Dexcool gelling. Herd anything about this?
Thanks,,PL
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I will put in a short answer that Emery will (hopefully) expand on as required.
Anti-Freeze (Ethylene-Glycol water solution) does not wear out.
What goes bad are the additives that should include at least: an anti-corrosion package, a waterpump seal lubricant and an anti-foam agent.
In capitol engines (a replacement cylinder liner will cost more then you paid for the coach), where the coolant fill is several hundred gallons, they monitor these chemicals and replenish only as they are required.
You could do this if you bought the testing.
OR,
You can buy coolant conditioners at real parts houses that are expensive little bottles that can be added to your system.
OR,
You can get all the old crud out of the system, by flushing and replacing the coolant with new and clean mix that will have the correct chemistry.
Now, I am interested in what Emory has to add.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #87442 is a reply to message #87429] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 19:07 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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On Jun 5, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Paul Leavitt wrote:
>
>
> Emery, does antifreeze really "wear out" and need to be changed on a regular basis like 3-6 yrs. like some recommend? Also, I work for GM and have herd of cases of and lawsuits over Dexcool gelling. Herd anything about this? Thanks,,PL
>
The antifreeze portion (ethylene gylcol) doesn't wear out and it will maintain its ability to keep the system from freezing. However the additives for anti-corrosion, rubber swell, anti-foam and water pump seal lubricant will be used up over time.
Back when I was involved in the trade we recommended changing it out every two years.
I just checked the GMC Operating Manual and the Maintenance Schedule that GM provided for the motorhomes and it does, indeed, say to drain, flush and replace the engine coolant every two years or 24,000 miles (this is whichever comes first).
I know that someone had posted to change it every 4 to 6 years on the GMCnet but I personally think that is pushing it out too far. Antifreeze is relatively cheap compared to the cost of repairing an engine or cooling system that has been damaged by corrosion.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #87443 is a reply to message #87429] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 19:09 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Jun 5, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Paul Leavitt wrote:
>
>
> Emery, does antifreeze really "wear out" and need to be changed on a regular basis like 3-6 yrs. like some recommend? Also, I work for GM and have herd of cases of and lawsuits over Dexcool gelling. Herd anything about this? Thanks,,PL
>
Paul, I forgot to comment on your question about Dexcool. Dexcool was designed for use only in some modern automobiles. DO NOT install it in a GMC motorhome.
GM has had some problems with it and you can read a lot about it if you use Google on the Internet.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #87445 is a reply to message #87432] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 19:21 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
> You can buy coolant conditioners at real parts houses that are expensive little bottles that can be added to your system.
> OR,
> You can get all the old crud out of the system, by flushing and replacing the coolant with new and clean mix that will have the correct chemistry.
Matt
I am in agreement with most of what you have said except for the use of aftermarket coolant conditioners. Different manufacturers of antifreeze / coolant use different inhibitor packages in their product. I know that Dow had periodically tested some of the aftermarket conditioners and found that with some, the ingredients would chemically react with some of the original coolant additive components and quickly "use up" the components or sometimes even cause sludging in the system. I am not a believer in aftermarket additives including cooling system, oiling system and transmission additives.
Another reason for draining, flushing and refilling every two years is to get rid of small particles that will build up in the engine cooling system. Some of them can be abrasive, such as metal particles, and draining them out periodically will help protect you engine's components.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #87462 is a reply to message #87445] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 21:40 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
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| emerystora wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 20:21 |
On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
> You can buy coolant conditioners at real parts houses that are expensive little bottles that can be added to your system.
> OR,
> You can get all the old crud out of the system, by flushing and replacing the coolant with new and clean mix that will have the correct chemistry.
Matt
I am in agreement with most of what you have said except for the use of aftermarket coolant conditioners. Different manufacturers of antifreeze / coolant use different inhibitor packages in their product. I know that Dow had periodically tested some of the aftermarket conditioners and found that with some, the ingredients would chemically react with some of the original coolant additive components and quickly "use up" the components or sometimes even cause sludging in the system. I am not a believer in aftermarket additives including cooling system, oiling system and transmission additives.
Another reason for draining, flushing and refilling every two years is to get rid of small particles that will build up in the engine cooling system. Some of them can be abrasive, such as metal particles, and draining them out periodically will help protect you engine's components.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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Emery, I agree with what you say, after all us Chem Engineers have to stick together. Regarding additives I also do not believe in them. Any time you add them you have a mystery solution. For example I use Rotella T Synthetic motor oil. Suppose I add Marvel Mystery Oil. What do I have? We no longer know what the viscosity of the mixture is. What is the lubricity of the mixture? You now have a mystery solution.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #87471 is a reply to message #87462] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 23:04 |
peter bailey
Messages: 367
Registered: March 2009
Location: Gawler, South Australia
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G'Day Gene,
As you have declared that you and Emery are Chem Engineers and you should
stick together reminds me of a story once asked of an old chap .
Q. What do old folks do now that your retired?
A. Well I am fortunate to have a Chemical Engineering background and of the
things I enjoy most is turning beer, wine and other alcoholis beverages into
urine.
So that is what retired Chem Engineers do,that should be an inspiration to
all of us.
Peter Bailey
from Ozy (Aussie)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Dotson" <shawnee@charter.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery????
>
>
> emerystora wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 20:21
>> On Jun 5, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > You can buy coolant conditioners at real parts houses that are
>> > expensive little bottles that can be added to your system.
>> > OR,
>> > You can get all the old crud out of the system, by flushing and
>> > replacing the coolant with new and clean mix that will have the correct
>> > chemistry.
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> I am in agreement with most of what you have said except for the use of
>> aftermarket coolant conditioners. Different manufacturers of antifreeze
>> / coolant use different inhibitor packages in their product. I know that
>> Dow had periodically tested some of the aftermarket conditioners and
>> found that with some, the ingredients would chemically react with some of
>> the original coolant additive components and quickly "use up" the
>> components or sometimes even cause sludging in the system. I am not a
>> believer in aftermarket additives including cooling system, oiling system
>> and transmission additives.
>>
>> Another reason for draining, flushing and refilling every two years is to
>> get rid of small particles that will build up in the engine cooling
>> system. Some of them can be abrasive, such as metal particles, and
>> draining them out periodically will help protect you engine's components.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Santa Fe, NM
>> __
>
>
> Emery, I agree with what you say, after all us Chem Engineers have to
> stick together. Regarding additives I also do not believe in them. Any
> time you add them you have a mystery solution. For example I use Rotella
> T Synthetic motor oil. Suppose I add Marvel Mystery Oil. What do I have?
> We no longer know what the viscosity of the mixture is. What is the
> lubricity of the mixture? You now have a mystery solution.
> --
> Gene Dotson
> 74 Canyonlands
> www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #87490 is a reply to message #87471] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 08:12 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
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| Peter Bailey wrote on Sun, 06 June 2010 00:04 |
G'Day Gene,
As you have declared that you and Emery are Chem Engineers and you should
stick together reminds me of a story once asked of an old chap .
Q. What do old folks do now that your retired?
A. Well I am fortunate to have a Chemical Engineering background and of the
things I enjoy most is turning beer, wine and other alcoholis beverages into
urine.
So that is what retired Chem Engineers do,that should be an inspiration to
all of us.
Peter Bailey
from Ozy (Aussie)
|
G'day Peter,
You are absolutely right, turning beer into urine is an exhausting job but with the right know how it can be done properly. Next time you are in the States, come by and I will show you the proper way it is done. It might take two or three sessions but the end result is worth it.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: Q. for Emery???? [message #87542 is a reply to message #87432] |
Sun, 06 June 2010 14:49 |
Don A
Messages: 895
Registered: October 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
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I have had two GMC Safari vans with DexCool proudly claimed to be 5 year, 100,000 mile antifreeze. The Dex in the first van turned to very solid gel in the 4th year, although it looked good in the overflow bottle. Took many drain, backflush and refill cycles to get most of it out.
Closer examination of the second van showed it was starting to gel in the 3rd year. Two years seems best to me, but I wouldn't use Dexcool in anything.
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba
[IMG]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6109/G2.jpg[/IMG]
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| Re: Q. for Emery???? [message #87597 is a reply to message #87542] |
Mon, 07 June 2010 02:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Don A wrote on Sun, 06 June 2010 14:49 |
I have had two GMC Safari vans with DexCool proudly claimed to be 5 year, 100,000 mile antifreeze. The Dex in the first van turned to very solid gel in the 4th year, although it looked good in the overflow bottle. Took many drain, backflush and refill cycles to get most of it out.
Closer examination of the second van showed it was starting to gel in the 3rd year. Two years seems best to me, but I wouldn't use Dexcool in anything.
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I'll second that. I would not use DeathCool in anything. I do not understand why GM keeps using it.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Q. for Emery???? [message #87991 is a reply to message #87542] |
Thu, 10 June 2010 20:24 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I have had two GMC Safari vans with DexCool proudly claimed to be 5 year, 100,000 mile antifreeze. The Dex in the first van turned to very solid gel in the 4th year, although it looked good in the overflow bottle. Took many drain, backflush and refill cycles to get most of it out.
Closer examination of the second van showed it was starting to gel in the 3rd year. Two years seems best to me, but I wouldn't use Dexcool in anything.
""
The original Dexcool was indeed a serious and expensive problem for GM. The root cause turned out to be air in the system which almost always was introduced through defective radiator caps. The formulation has long since been modified and today is a non issue. The reason it wasn't caught prior to production was that development and test cars didn't have failed radiator caps.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Q. for Emery???? [message #88001 is a reply to message #87460] |
Thu, 10 June 2010 21:31 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Sat, 05 June 2010 21:57 |
Emery,
. . .
For the hell of it I went to the Napa website and did a search for anti
freeze and I found that Zerex recommends 5 years - 100,000 miles in between
changes. I'm wondering if this recommendation is aimed at current generation
engines and not thirty year old monster cast iron engines like ours?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Rob,
Not sure how much webbing you did, but most of the antifreeze companies make a "standard" grade, and a "long-life" grade. Typically they recommend a 2 year change interval on standard, and a 5 year change interval on the "long-life" grade. I'm not a chemistry major, but I believe all of the long-life versions use "organic acid" formulations and the regular uses something else. Hopefully our chemistry majors can shed some additional background. I don't think the vintage of the engine has much to do with it. All cast iron with more conservative temperature limits might (or might not?) be more forgiving to antifreeze chemistry than modern engines with an amalgam of cast iron, aluminum, plastic and who knows what else, with higher temperature extremes due to tighter emissions considerations, higher specific outputs, and less margin for errors. Most of the newer electric fans don't even turn on till 220 or so. Just some thoughts.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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