Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Dyno Tuning (well worth the money)
| Dyno Tuning [message #86298] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 11:47  |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
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I am an infrequent poster. But this is something to report.
I just had a new motor installed - after a lot of issues. It is a Jasper roller cam motor.
The coach went straight to a top local dyno tuner, Randy Richey, http://www.pahorsepower.com/index.html (real old timers might remember his dad, Les Richey)
For about $900, and three days at the shop, I picked up 44 horsepower but more important went from 311 lbs of torque at 3242 rpm to 439 lbs of torque at 2698 rpm. And when I brought it in, I thought it ran great. Needless to say, now it is better.
I would bet that almost everyone is leaving a lot of power untapped.
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: Dyno Tuning [message #86303 is a reply to message #86298] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 12:21  |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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wow. how did he do that?
i've been trying to find one of those here. thought i had found one but it was too narrow. he gave me a price of 75 bucks for 3 pulls if i could get 6 or more coaches to come in.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86318 is a reply to message #86298] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 14:45 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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What did they do?
Wouldn't it be great to fine tune a fuel injection setup on a dyno!
Ljdavick at comcast.net
On May 27, 2010, at 9:47 AM, Neil Martin <nmartin@hfbllp.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am an infrequent poster. But this is something to report.
>
> I just had a new motor installed - after a lot of issues. It is a
> Jasper roller cam motor.
>
> The coach went straight to a top local dyno tuner, Randy Richey, http://www.pahorsepower.com/index.html
> (real old timers might remember his dad, Les Richey)
>
> For about $900, and three days at the shop, I picked up 44
> horsepower but more important went from 311 lbs of torque at 3242
> rpm to 439 lbs of torque at 2698 rpm. And when I brought it in, I
> thought it ran great. Needless to say, now it is better.
>
> I would bet that almost everyone is leaving a lot of power untapped.
> --
> Neil
> 76 Eleganza
> Los Angeles
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86320 is a reply to message #86318] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 15:18 |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
Karma: 1
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Randy - the tuner - did a lot of work on recurving the distributor, both the vacuum and mechanical aspects. He also worked on the carb. I should have written down what he said.
But hey - he is a real nice guy, go to the website, get his number, call and say you were talking to me and wanted to know what he did.
He is a real pro with fuel injection and has designed a control system which he says will work with just about any hardware.
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86321 is a reply to message #86318] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 15:14 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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frank condos did that
gene
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net> wrote:
> What did they do?
>
> Wouldn't it be great to fine tune a fuel injection setup on a dyno!
>
> Ljdavick at comcast.net
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 9:47 AM, Neil Martin <nmartin@hfbllp.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I am an infrequent poster. But this is something to report.
> >
> > I just had a new motor installed - after a lot of issues. It is a
> > Jasper roller cam motor.
> >
> > The coach went straight to a top local dyno tuner, Randy Richey,
> http://www.pahorsepower.com/index.html
> > (real old timers might remember his dad, Les Richey)
> >
> > For about $900, and three days at the shop, I picked up 44
> > horsepower but more important went from 311 lbs of torque at 3242
> > rpm to 439 lbs of torque at 2698 rpm. And when I brought it in, I
> > thought it ran great. Needless to say, now it is better.
> >
> > I would bet that almost everyone is leaving a lot of power untapped.
> > --
> > Neil
> > 76 Eleganza
> > Los Angeles
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
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Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86322 is a reply to message #86298] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 15:17 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Neil,
I would be very interesting to post the dyno runs and to know what that
company did to obtain those figures.
You did not provide a before / after on the HP but a gain of 44 HP I would
guesstimate to be about a 10%, however, the torque gain works out at 41%!
That is unbelievable! PLUS it was at 544 rpm lower!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Martin
For about $900, and three days at the shop, I picked up 44 horsepower but
more important went from 311 lbs of torque at 3242 rpm to 439 lbs of torque
at 2698 rpm. And when I brought it in, I thought it ran great. Needless to
say, now it is better.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Dyno Tuning [message #86329 is a reply to message #86298] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 17:25 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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there is a paper on the subject on the GMCWS web page but i cannot find it. i downloaded it. it's dated 10/10/06.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: Dyno Tuning [message #86331 is a reply to message #86329] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 17:53 |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Randy's dyno is a Mustang eddy current type. He has one of these with rollers for front and rear wheels.
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: Dyno Tuning [message #86335 is a reply to message #86331] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 18:37 |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I asked Randy to explain what he did. Here is his answer:
"As far as what processes were used to create the end product, we simply gave the engine what it told us it wanted. The issues were defined on the dyno in air fuel ratio and timing control as referenced to torque produced at interval throttle positions and load applied. We then create a reasonable AFR and adjust total timing numbers to achieve the highest safe torque return. We then trim AFR to blend economy and power production and data log the results. If all of the numbers work and the drive ability is great, everybody is happy.
Sounds simple right?"
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86452 is a reply to message #86298] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 17:46 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Neil,
I think those "after" numbers are pretty close to what Jim B. at the
COOP got when they put the engines on a dyno earlier in production.
It sounds like you had a lot of problems that were spark and fuel
related. The engine was what it was, just needed the peripheral's
brought up to snuff.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Neil Martin <nmartin@hfbllp.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am an infrequent poster. But this is something to report.
>
> I just had a new motor installed - after a lot of issues. It is a Jasper roller cam motor.
>
> The coach went straight to a top local dyno tuner, Randy Richey, http://www.pahorsepower.com/index.html (real old timers might remember his dad, Les Richey)
>
> For about $900, and three days at the shop, I picked up 44 horsepower but more important went from 311 lbs of torque at 3242 rpm to 439 lbs of torque at 2698 rpm. And when I brought it in, I thought it ran great. Needless to say, now it is better.
>
> I would bet that almost everyone is leaving a lot of power untapped.
> --
> Neil
> 76 Eleganza
> Los Angeles
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86455 is a reply to message #86452] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 18:19 |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
Just fyi, it had a brand new Patterson carb and a new pertronix distibutor.
Randy did major work on the vacuum and mechanical advance curves. I think I now have 36 degrees of timing when it is all in.
And, really, when I took it over to the dyno shop, before any work at all, I thought it ran great, especially compared to the 3 (!!!) prior motors.
This motor has this Comp Cam roller. http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=1182&sb=2
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86458 is a reply to message #86452] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 18:40 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
That's what I was thinking when I noted the 40% torque gain by dyno tuning
(439 - 311 = 128 ft lb / 311 X 40% = 128 / 311 + 128 = 435).
The accompanying gain of "only" 44 horsepower (about 10% assuming a base
line of around 400 horsepower) seems low.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Ferguson
Neil,
I think those "after" numbers are pretty close to what Jim B. at the COOP
got when they put the engines on a dyno earlier in production.
IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS THAT WERE SPARK AND FUEL RELATED.
The engine was what it was, just needed the peripheral's brought up to
snuff.
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Martin
For about $900, and three days at the shop, I picked up 44 horsepower but
more important went from 311 lbs of torque at 3242 rpm to 439 lbs of torque
at 2698 rpm.
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List Information and Subscription Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86460 is a reply to message #86455] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 19:25 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Neil wrote on Fri, 28 May 2010 18:19 |
Steve,
Just fyi, it had a brand new Patterson carb and a new pertronix distibutor.
Randy did major work on the vacuum and mechanical advance curves. I think I now have 36 degrees of timing when it is all in.
And, really, when I took it over to the dyno shop, before any work at all, I thought it ran great, especially compared to the 3 (!!!) prior motors.
This motor has this Comp Cam roller. http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=1182&sb=2
|
from all the discussions i've read on this forum the dist. curves are really important. Patterson has done a lot of work in that area. why did you choose a Petronix?
on the stock 455 they talk about more timing than your 36 deg. up to 41 deg. i wonder if the cam makes a difference in the required advance.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86467 is a reply to message #86455] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 19:49 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Neil,
Did Dick Patterson have the cam specs when he curved your distributer?
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Neil Martin <nmartin@hfbllp.com> wrote:
>
>
> Steve,
>
> Just fyi, it had a brand new Patterson carb and a new pertronix distibutor.
>
> Randy did major work on the vacuum and mechanical advance curves. I think I now have 36 degrees of timing when it is all in.
>
> And, really, when I took it over to the dyno shop, before any work at all, I thought it ran great, especially compared to the 3 (!!!) prior motors.
>
> This motor has this Comp Cam roller. http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=1182&sb=2
> --
> Neil
> 76 Eleganza
> Los Angeles
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86468 is a reply to message #86460] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 19:54 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Fred,
The stock advance curves and vacuum advance numbers are based on a
compromise between performance, and emissions. Probably more towards
emissions.
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 5:25 PM, fred veenschoten <fredntoni@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> Neil wrote on Fri, 28 May 2010 18:19
>> Steve,
>>
>> Just fyi, it had a brand new Patterson carb and a new pertronix distibutor.
>>
>> Randy did major work on the vacuum and mechanical advance curves. I think I now have 36 degrees of timing when it is all in.
>>
>> And, really, when I took it over to the dyno shop, before any work at all, I thought it ran great, especially compared to the 3 (!!!) prior motors.
>>
>> This motor has this Comp Cam roller. http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=1182&sb=2
>
> from all the discussions i've read on this forum the dist. curves are really important. Patterson has done a lot of work in that area. why did you choose a Petronix?
>
> on the stock 455 they talk about more timing than your 36 deg. up to 41 deg. i wonder if the cam makes a difference in the required advance.
>
> --
> Fred V
> '77 Royale RB 455
> P'cola, Fl
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86473 is a reply to message #86468] |
Fri, 28 May 2010 20:24 |
Neil
Messages: 271
Registered: July 2007
Location: Los Angeles and Magalia, ...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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The distributor was stock out of the box pertronix so let me clear Mr. Patterson's good name. It was just all wrong on both the vacuum and mechanical advance, although I though it ran great.
The motor was not run to 5,000 rpm so the hp increase was on the rpms tested and probably would extrapolate to the same percentage. I would be happy to email the dyno charts to someone more talented to post for all.
I am driving cross-country in a week and can give a better report upon my return.
Neil
76 Eleganza now sold
Los Angeles
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dyno Tuning [message #86493 is a reply to message #86468] |
Sat, 29 May 2010 07:35 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Steven Ferguson wrote on Fri, 28 May 2010 20:54 |
Fred,
The stock advance curves and vacuum advance numbers are based on a compromise between performance, and emissions. Probably more towards emissions.
--
Steve Ferguson
|
Steve,
You are correct, but not complete in your answer.
In the '70s, the 455 in a coach would have been considered an heavy duty application and much less restricted than passcar, so, only basic emissions controls were included. Hence, the TIC valve and the air stove. Even after catalytic systems were required on most vehicles, the coaches were still exempt from this requirement.
With even these limited controls, it was still common for a tuning to have or develop a "flat spot" (technically known as a driveability fault) such that at some throttle position and crankshaft speed there would be a hole in the torque curve. These could present manufacturing with a nightmare as few facilities could capture data fast enough to determine what was the actual cause.
The far bigger influence was manufacturing capability. The acceptable casting variation in those days would amaze a young engineer today. The combination of all of this is plain when one considers that the gains made by just using knock controlled spark. This could show up on one vehicle in a line and the manufacturer often had no choice but to buy it back.
We used to accept a 10% performance reduction from pre-production to full production and be glad if we could hold it. The last engine program I worked on there was a 1% statistical loss with 2% scatter, so some engines measured in hot test were actually better than my hand-built phase 2.
Any open loop (not computer controlled mixture and spark) engine will appreciate the individual attention to tuning. Just how much can be gained is very engine specific. If a builder happened to hit the right combination, he might think his time and money at the tuner were a complete waste. But there is no way to know without the actual dyno time.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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