Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in.
| [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86096] |
Tue, 25 May 2010 22:31  |
4701
Messages: 62
Registered: May 2010
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I'm starting to put together my left of things to do to the coach.
The coach drives great, doesn't drift, has just a tiny little shimmy at
around 50 but I can just barely tell it's there but there's a knocking
in the front wheel on tight turns or if I make that corner light. I've
looked and can see that the bolts holding the stabilizer bar to the
lower control arm look like they backed out a little bit.
The optimistic part of me hopes that tightening these will solve it, but
I'm suspicious that there's going to be more trouble in there. Probably
looking at a new ball joint, hopefully I don't have to buy any control
arms. If I do, how special are they?
I'm interested in your experiences with this.
DC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86124 is a reply to message #86096] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 08:37  |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Inspect your lower control arms. If they have the original, rivited
in place ball joints, they are junk as are the bushings. There's no
magic to replacing either and detailed instructions, with photos can
be found here:
http://www.gmcws.org/tech.htm
Look under the heading "Getting your GMC under control".
If you pull the uppers, replace the bushings with an offset one in the
rear ear of each. The extra caster will make your GMC drive even
better.
Both can be purchased totally remanufactured from Applied GMC or you
can follow the instructions and do them yourself. Replace those
lowers with urethane, you will be pleased with the results.
Pull the drive shaft bolts, clean them and the threaded holes with
brake cleaner, reassemble with threadlock and torque them at least
twice. You will not have this problem again. Some subscribe to the
belief that they need to be replaced after every removal. Decide for
yourself.
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:31 PM, D. Crisis <4701@opg.org> wrote:
> I'm starting to put together my left of things to do to the coach.
>
> The coach drives great, doesn't drift, has just a tiny little shimmy at
> around 50 but I can just barely tell it's there but there's a knocking
> in the front wheel on tight turns or if I make that corner light. I've
> looked and can see that the bolts holding the stabilizer bar to the
> lower control arm look like they backed out a little bit.
>
> The optimistic part of me hopes that tightening these will solve it, but
> I'm suspicious that there's going to be more trouble in there. Probably
> looking at a new ball joint, hopefully I don't have to buy any control
> arms. If I do, how special are they?
>
> I'm interested in your experiences with this.
>
> DC
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86139 is a reply to message #86136] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 11:00 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Do what Steve said! I had front end issues and with Steve's help and encouragement, I bit the bullet and did the front suspension from the bushings out. Only one of my lower control arm bushings was completely shot and the others were not much better, and my ball joints , although somewhat loose, were not worn excessively, They all got replaced. The coach drove and steered fine before, but it is even better now and, more importantly, I have the peace of mind that I won't have any problems with that part of my coach ever again.
Recognizing that there are bound to be budget restraints (my Dad once told me that one time he replaced ONE (yes, 1) brake shoe on a car he owned because that would take care of the immediate problem and he couldn't afford two, much less a set), do as much as you can afford. Steve's advice to me was to do the hubs, Knuckles, and bearings, with Dave Lenzi components, and then be done with that part of the steering/suspension. It was painfully expensive, but I'm glad I did it. I also installed new sway bar bushings and end links as well as brake pads. I am kicking myself for not doing calipers at the same time, but they are easy enough to replace later.
If all of those things have already been taken care of, great! You might be able to tighten the two loose bolts and fix the problem.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86169 is a reply to message #86166] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 13:37 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| gmchunter wrote on Wed, 26 May 2010 13:27 |
Steve, can the ball joints and bushings be replaced without removing the control arms from the coach?
Michael
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Yes, but it a much easier job to do with them removed. It is only a matter of unloading the torsion bar and taking off two additional bolts to remove them. I would not dream of trying to do it on the coach.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86170 is a reply to message #86169] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 13:40 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Ken Burton wrote on Wed, 26 May 2010 13:37 |
| gmchunter wrote on Wed, 26 May 2010 13:27 |
Steve, can the ball joints and bushings be replaced without removing the control arms from the coach?
Michael
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Yes, but it a much easier job to do with them removed. It is only a matter of unloading the torsion bar and taking off two additional bolts to remove them. I would not dream of trying to do it on the coach.
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Sorry I misread the question. You need to remove the same two bolts to replace thee bushings.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86187 is a reply to message #86139] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 15:57 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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The back location on the off set works best.
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Do what Steve said! Â I had front end issues and with Steve's help and encouragement, I bit the bullet and did the front suspension from the bushings out. Â Only one of my lower control arm bushings was completely shot and the others were not much better, and my ball joints , although somewhat loose, were not worn excessively, They all got replaced. Â The coach drove and steered fine before, but it is even better now and, more importantly, I have the peace of mind that I won't have any problems with that part of my coach ever again.
>
> Recognizing that there are bound to be budget restraints (my Dad once told me that one time he replaced ONE (yes, 1) brake shoe on a car he owned because that would take care of the immediate problem and he couldn't afford two, much less a set), do as much as you can afford. Â Steve's advice to me was to do the hubs, Knuckles, and bearings, with Dave Lenzi components, and then be done with that part of the steering/suspension. Â It was painfully expensive, but I'm glad I did it. Â I also installed new sway bar bushings and end links as well as brake pads. Â I am kicking myself for not doing calipers at the same time, but they are easy enough to replace later.
>
> If all of those things have already been taken care of, great! Â You might be able to tighten the two loose bolts and fix the problem.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86197 is a reply to message #86136] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 17:28 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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DC,
Check the photos closer. One will show the orientation of the
offseet bushing. In the rear ear of each upper, arrow points away
from the ball joint for the most caster.
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:31 AM, D. Crisis <4701@opg.org> wrote:
> Thanks!
>
> I noticed that you mention in your article that you only need one offset
> bushing. Does it go in the front or the back?
>
> DC
>
> On 05/26/2010 06:37 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
>> Inspect your lower control arms. If they have the original, rivited
>> in place ball joints, they are junk as are the bushings. There's no
>> magic to replacing either and detailed instructions, with photos can
>> be found here:
>> http://www.gmcws.org/tech.htm
>> Look under the heading "Getting your GMC under control".
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86207 is a reply to message #86136] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 18:09 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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DC,
I completely rebuilt the front end in both my GMC's the job entailed:
1) CONTROL ARMS
A) Lower
i) reinforce as per Steve Ferguson
ii) install urethane bushings as per Steve Ferguson
iii) replace mounting bolts with ones that have a longer unthreaded
portion - threaded portion of OEM bolt extends into the metal liner and I
noted threads cut into the metal liner meaning the bushings shifted
B) Upper
i) install offset bushing in rear arm as per Dave Lenzi and others
ii) install offset busing in front arm - as per Dave Lenzi "it might
not help get more caster but it won't hurt."
2) SHOCKS
A) install KYB shocks as per Jim K and others
3) KNUCKLES
A) install rebuilt units from Dave Lenzi with grease zerk
4) HUBS
A) install rebuilt units from Dave Lenzi
5) WHEEL BEARINGS
A) install Timken Set 23
6) BALL JOINTS
A) replace uppers
B) replace lowers
i) use 3/8" bolts as per Steve Ferguson
7) TIE ROD ENDS
A) replace inners & outers
8) RELAY LEVER
A) replace with unit from Dave Lenzi
9) IDLER ARM
A) replace with unit from Dave Lenzi
10) DRAG LINK
A) replace with adjustable unit
11) STEERING DAMPER
A) replace
12) FRONT STABILIZER
A) replace mounting bushings on frame with urethane
B) replace bushings on control arm ends with urethane
13) STEERING BOX
A) replace Pitman shaft seal - Tom Hampton
B) perform Pitman Shaft "Over Center" Sector Adjustment - Tom Hampton
14) STEERING BOX TO STEERING COLUMN SHAFT
A) Sliding shaft
i) remove, disassemble, clean, inspect, and grease with Valvoline Dura
Blend moly grease
B) CV joint
i) remove, disassemble, clean, inspect, and grease with Valvoline Dura
Blend moly grease
C) replace dust boots
This work was done in stages and each stage made the coach steer and handle
better. Steps 13) & 14) were done last by Tom Hampton at Grandview
Motorhomes in Ohio. That made it as good as it gets. The reason being the
1975 Avions start out as Transmodes. Dave Greenberg was able to tell me that
Double Trouble was manufactured in November of 1974 and they are hard to get
much caster into. Even with offset bushings in the front and rear arms of
the upper control arms the max caster Tom was able to get without effecting
camber was 2 degrees. Double Trouble handles pretty well now but I intend to
install a pair of Dave Lenzi's upper control arms with repositioned
bushings. I have spoken to several people that have installed them and they
were able to get upwards of 4 degrees caster which made their GMC's "handle
like it is on rails."
If I've missed anything above I'd like to know as I reckon there's nothing
else I can do to, as Steve Ferguson says; "Get your GMC under control!"
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Crisis
I noticed that you mention in your article that you only need one offset
bushing. Does it go in the front or the back?
DC
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86220 is a reply to message #86207] |
Wed, 26 May 2010 20:05 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Hi, Rob and all.
And what might be an approximate cost of all this for
parts and labor if one must hire it done by somebody
competent to do it?
I'm not truly sure I or others really want to know!!
* Mac Macdonald *
* USAF, Retired *
* Oklahoma City *
** "Money Pit" **
* '76 ex - P.B. *
Note: see Rob Mueller's note of 26 May 2010, 1609 CDT
or 2309 UTC for details without repeating them all here.
_____________________________
From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:09:03 +1000
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in.
DC,
I completely rebuilt the front end in both my GMC's
the job entailed:
>>>> Original text snipped out <<<<
If I've missed anything above I'd like to know as I reckon
there's nothing else I can do to, as Steve Ferguson says;
"Get your GMC under control!"
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86284 is a reply to message #86281] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 09:09 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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I'm not Matt but I followed the same procedure when I rebuilt my front end.
With the alignment correct, the tires on dead center (toe at zero) I
removed the steering box, physically centered the the zero point
(counted the lock to lock turns, then set it at zero between the
stops), marked the shaft and box, then installed it with the steering
wheel dead center. There are a few steering boxes out there with no
internal stops so it is a bit more difficult to do with those, but not
impossible.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 6:49 AM, gene barrow <barrowgene@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Matt,
> Can you please describe what all you had to do to "center your steering gear all the way through"
> --
> Gene Barrow
> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> 1976 Palm Beach
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Front end issue, about to dig in. [message #86290 is a reply to message #86281] |
Thu, 27 May 2010 10:15 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| gbarrow wrote on Thu, 27 May 2010 09:49 |
Matt,
Can you please describe what all you had to do to "center your steering gear all the way through"
|
When I took the coach to Harold's Frame Shop for and alignment (it had some pull), they jacked it up on their rack and called me out to show me how loose everything was and the worst was the idler arm that allowed the left wheel to move. If they though they were going to sell a lot of work, they lost. They lost more than they know.
I had been basing a lot on the fact that the steering wheel was off center and there was a constant pull - even on flat pavement and it was difficult to keep the coach in a lane. The there were no loose ball joints or rod ends.
I went home and was still believing I needed parts, so I did the only intelligent thing - I called Dave Lenzi. The first thing Dave said was "They all do that because they don't understand the GMC frontend and they jack it up so everything is out of line."
Dave could have sold me 500$ worth of parts, but insisted that I reset the steering gear so it is all centered before I buy any parts at all. The following is all per Dave's suggestion and the GMC service manual. If you don't have the manuals, get them.
Start by centering the steering box by counting turns - full left - full right and split the difference. The steering wheel may not come back at straight ahead. Mine did not.
Get the slip coupler and cardin joint out of the way but try not to turn the (now centered) steering box. Find figure 9-64 and line up flat on the steering box per that. This is easier if you clamp something long and straight to the flat. The pitman arm should be square to the frame and the drag link at this point.
I used clamps and steel stock to lock the drag link so I could re-assemble the cardin/slip/cv joint group so the wheel would be straight ahead both as reference and to be a handle.
Then the drag link needs to be adjusted so that both the relay lever (bell crank) and the idler arm are square to the frame or intermediate rod (relay rod). (Parentheses indicate other common names of these parts.)
Now, adjust the tie rods as required to get toe and ahead correct.
The change this made was amazing. It took me a few tries to get the wheel centered and the toe correct at the same time. During the highway portion of our recent excursion, my wife went just over an half a mile without touching the wheel at all - I'll buy that. I owe Dave Lenzi a debt for his telephone time to get me (and the coach) pointed in the right direction (literally).
It did replace the stabilizer links at the same time, but that can't have been much but the rattle.
In operational stuff, we call this a cascade-misalignment. When something is not adjusted right, someone adjusts it were it is convenient but does not adjust the thing that is actually wrong. Then things seem centered, but really are not and other things get have to get adjusted to compensate for what now mis-adjusted. . . .
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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