Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79270 is a reply to message #79268] |
Sun, 04 April 2010 20:21   |
bhayes
Messages: 263
Registered: March 2010
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Interesting thought, Matt. It resides in Salt Lake City, and has for
years. We do get plenty of "fender solvent" on the roads during the winter,
but the frame shows very little rust. I also just noticed some of the same
substance on a few of the coolant lines. Here's the picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4491807390/
On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> Bryan Hayes wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 20:40
> > Greetings all. I was looking through some pictures I recently took of a
> 1976 Palm Beach that's for sale, and noticed a white ash-like substance on
> the side of the engine block near the exhaust manifolds. I posted a few
> pictures of the driver's side of the engine:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4490859225/in/photostream/
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4491500002/in/photostream/
> >
> > Does anyone know what this might be?
> >
> > Bryan Hayes
> > No GMC Yet
> > Salt Lake City, UT
>
> Byran,
>
> I know you are in Salt Lake City, but where is the coach from most
> recently. I ask because that looks a great deal like the salt deposits that
> end up all over (I do mean all) the vehicles in the state that are on the
> road during winter. Here in the land of "fender solvent", I would expect
> that to be on all the hot parts.
>
> It does not look like a result of coolant leakage or iron corrosion.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79273 is a reply to message #79270] |
Sun, 04 April 2010 20:39 |
dkoug
Messages: 19
Registered: July 2009
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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My concern could be antifreeze:
Hopefully not the intake manifold. Engine can run for a long period of
time before it might cause real trouble. Question does the unit need
antifreeze added on occasions.
Sure looks like it to me but I'm not an expert. I have a 4.3 V6 in an
Astro Van and this engine is famous I believe for this problem.
I wish you the best.
dkoug
On 4/4/2010 7:21 PM, Bryan Hayes wrote:
> Interesting thought, Matt. It resides in Salt Lake City, and has for
> years. We do get plenty of "fender solvent" on the roads during the winter,
> but the frame shows very little rust. I also just noticed some of the same
> substance on a few of the coolant lines. Here's the picture:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4491807390/
>
> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Matt Colie<mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Bryan Hayes wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 20:40
>>
>>> Greetings all. I was looking through some pictures I recently took of a
>>>
>> 1976 Palm Beach that's for sale, and noticed a white ash-like substance on
>> the side of the engine block near the exhaust manifolds. I posted a few
>> pictures of the driver's side of the engine:
>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4490859225/in/photostream/
>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4491500002/in/photostream/
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what this might be?
>>>
>>> Bryan Hayes
>>> No GMC Yet
>>> Salt Lake City, UT
>>>
>> Byran,
>>
>> I know you are in Salt Lake City, but where is the coach from most
>> recently. I ask because that looks a great deal like the salt deposits that
>> end up all over (I do mean all) the vehicles in the state that are on the
>> road during winter. Here in the land of "fender solvent", I would expect
>> that to be on all the hot parts.
>>
>> It does not look like a result of coolant leakage or iron corrosion.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt& Mary Colie
>> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
>> SE Michigan - DTW 3.2/4R
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79285 is a reply to message #79270] |
Sun, 04 April 2010 22:28 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Bryan Hayes wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 21:21 |
Interesting thought, Matt. It resides in Salt Lake City, and has for years. We do get plenty of "fender solvent" on the roads during the winter, but the frame shows very little rust. I also just noticed some of the same substance on a few of the coolant lines. Here's the picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8894097@N05/4491807390/
|
Byran,
The residual green dye in that frame makes me believe that it is coolant - with a too hard water for dilution. The lack of green in the other frames would tend to lead toward something else.
I know almost nothing about that area. Could it be salt picked up during normal weather?
To me (good pictures - by the way), it does not look like enough and distributed as widely as dry chemical from a fire extinguisher.
I just went back to your pictures and looked at 4883 (which is probably the source file for WhiteAsh2[?]). With my monitor, I can see green in that frame, but still no in 4876. It sure looks like the same stuff though.
Caution:::
The much of the following is conjecture. My experience with engines in general is well more than most, but I am no expert on the Olds 455.
This is interesting and maybe well a cause for concern. This might be expected if it is someplace the leaked coolant could collect and then evaporate to leave the dye and soluble materials behind. As liquid could not easily collect there, then it MAY be coming from the cooling jacket in the cylinder head casting. This would indicate a cracked cylinder head casting.
Unfortunately, from the look of it, it will probably not be detectable with a cooling system pressure check as the casting failure may be effective leak tight when cold. This looks like a problem that I would label a "core shift induced crack" meaning the sand core for the cylinder head water jacket got out of place so there was too little metal there. This would be no real surprise as there is always a lot of jacket water around the exhaust runners. If this is the case, there is no means to reliably repair the casting. Stop leak stuff will last a dozen thermal cycles at best in this case - don't even bother.
Want a try that you can do with little difficulty???
Get some of the lady's dry powder spray stuff. Clean the areas in question. Spray enough of the white powder there so it is a solid cover. Top off the coolant and run the engine until it is seriously warm. Watch for green to show up.
You could spend the money on a fluorescent dye to put in the cooling system, but I don't think you are going to need it. I do think the owner will be looking for a casting (maybe 2).
A word of caution here. The owner may not be aware that this is a serious issue. If he thinks you are trying to pull something, he may get defensive and very hard to deal with even nasty. (Can you hear the BTDT?)
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79330 is a reply to message #79263] |
Mon, 05 April 2010 11:04 |
WayneB
Messages: 233
Registered: July 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Looks like it has a few coolant leaks to me.
The one by where the head mates with the block is the most worrysome, its just under a core plug so it may be just coming from there, but it may also indicate a head gasket leak.
I would want to run it up to operating temp and check that combustion gasses arent entering the cooling system which will blow out coolant and cause overheating (worst case scenario).
It may just require a few hoses, clamps and a T piece and either a can of Bars Leaks and / or a core plug though.
Hard to tell without looking at the thing fisthand.
1976 23' GMCII By Explorer
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79357 is a reply to message #79330] |
Mon, 05 April 2010 15:11 |
bhayes
Messages: 263
Registered: March 2010
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. Several of you confirmed my initial
thought, which is coolant coming from leaking head gaskets.
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Wayne Barratt <waynebarratt@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> Looks like it has a few coolant leaks to me.
>
> The one by where the head mates with the block is the most worrysome, its
> just under a core plug so it may be just coming from there, but it may also
> indicate a head gasket leak.
>
> I would want to run it up to operating temp and check that combustion
> gasses arent entering the cooling system which will blow out coolant and
> cause overheating (worst case scenario).
>
> It may just require a few hoses, clamps and a T piece and either a can of
> Bars Leaks and / or a core plug though.
>
> Hard to tell without looking at the thing fisthand.
> --
> 1976 23' GMCII By Explorer
> _______________________________________________
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Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79577 is a reply to message #79411] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 14:06 |
bhayes
Messages: 263
Registered: March 2010
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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So if there has been a coolant leak from the head gaskets, what kind of
repairs would we be looking at? I'm assuming at a minimum we'd have to pull
the heads and replace the gaskets, as well as flush out engine.
Bryan Hayes
GMCless in Salt Lake City, UT
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
> Unfortunately, there is possibly leakage to the inside as well. Look
> back in the archives and find the company that does engine oil
> analysis and get that tested before you get too much farther along.
> Glycol eats bearings.
>
> Matt,
> You are correct. I have read several warnings from Blackstone labs
> about the damage coolants do in the lubrication system. That is high
> on their priority list when analyzing oil specimens. Silicates are
> also reportable elements.
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
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Bryan Hayes
'76 Eleganza II
Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79701 is a reply to message #79577] |
Thu, 08 April 2010 08:15 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bryan,
I think the degree with which you deal with this depends mostly on
how soon you caught the coolant leak. Pull a sample and send it in to
Blackstone. They will send back what levels of coolant they found and
a list and description of other contaminants that show what component
damage was done as a result of the contamination.
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Bryan Hayes <hayesnet1@gmail.com> wrote:
> So if there has been a coolant leak from the head gaskets, what kind of
> repairs would we be looking at? I'm assuming at a minimum we'd have to pull
> the heads and replace the gaskets, as well as flush out engine.
>
> Bryan Hayes
> GMCless in Salt Lake City, UT
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>> Unfortunately, there is possibly leakage to the inside as well. Look
>> back in the archives and find the company that does engine oil
>> analysis and get that tested before you get too much farther along.
>> Glycol eats bearings.
>>
>> Matt,
>> You are correct. I have read several warnings from Blackstone labs
>> about the damage coolants do in the lubrication system. That is high
>> on their priority list when analyzing oil specimens. Silicates are
>> also reportable elements.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Ferguson
>> '76 EII
>> Sierra Vista, AZ
>> Urethane bushing source
>> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] White ash-like substance on engine block [message #79706 is a reply to message #79577] |
Thu, 08 April 2010 08:30 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Bryan Hayes wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 15:06 |
So if there has been a coolant leak from the head gaskets, what kind of
repairs would we be looking at? I'm assuming at a minimum we'd have to pull the heads and replace the gaskets, as well as flush out engine.
Bryan Hayes
GMCless in Salt Lake City, UT
|
Bryan,
This is a question that can not be answered at this point.
You are correct that at least the head gaskets should be changed out and the oil system flushed. There is no way to know.
But,
Without an oil analysis, there is a great deal that is unknown. That analysis may reveal evidence of bearing damage. Unfortunately, it is not a simple matter to remove the oil pan and pull a single main bearing down and inspect that for damage.
There are a lot of core support holes in the fire deck (the surface that the head bolts down on - the pictures in the service books tell a lot - you might not own them - yet) and just as many on the valley edge as outboard. As there is no way to know how much or how long this weep has been going on, there is just no fast/cheap/good way to know.
If I were in your position, I would get the oil analysis at my own expense and then (without actually revealing the data unless the current owner wants to buy the analysis from you) discuss the implications with the owner. You may end up with a deal you can not refuse or just have to walk away.
Let us know how this goes.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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