Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] offset bushing question
| [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76273] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 15:22  |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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The bushings on the a-arms (top and bottom) are pretty well shot.
I understand I can use moog offset bushings to get more caster.
My question: do the offset bushings go on both sides of the upper a-arm,
or just the rear?
thanks,
Karen
1973 23' Patience Tester
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76282 is a reply to message #76273] |
Wed, 10 March 2010 16:37  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day Karen,
Here is a copy of a message John Sharpe and I sent in to the GMC net awhile
back.
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
G'day,
There are a number of good write-ups on the internet on how to install
offset bushings in the upper control arms of a GMC. The general consensus of
opinion seems to be that a GMC will handle best with as much positive caster
as you can get with as close to zero camber as possible and zero toe in or
slight toe out. Furthermore it appears that it is difficult to get much
caster in 1973 and 1974 coaches whereas later coaches 1975 thru 1978 seem to
be able to get more. Offset bushings enable one to get more caster by moving
the upper ball joint towards the REAR of the GMC. If you install one offset
bushing put it in the rear arm of the control arm. In conversations with
Dave Lenzi (front suspension Guru) he noted that it is OK to install offset
bushing is both the front and rear of the control arms. He noted that
installing two may or may not help but it will not hurt.
The write-ups refer to the arrows on Moog offset bushings to assist with the
installation. John Sharpe and I recently replaced the bushings in his upper
control arms which he got from NAPA that did not have arrows on them and it
got confusing; as a matter of fact we installed the first pair incorrectly!
Fortunately we realized it when we started on the second set and corrected
our mistake.
Jim K shipped me offset bushings for The Blue Streak that did not have
arrows on them also and the fact I screwed up helping John got me wondering
whether or not I installed them correctly or not. I checked some photos of
the control arms and found that the bushings were installed correctly. The
fact that I had done it correctly on The Blue Streak yet screwed it up when
helping John made us decide to publish how to install offset bushings wether
they had arrows or not.
The upper control arms are stamped with an "L" or an "R". When you remove
them check and make sure they have been installed correctly. Yes, they can
be interchanged! We discovered this while looking at another coach! We do
not really know if it affects driveability or not but the coach had been
driven 1000's of miles with the control arms installed that way. We wondered
if swapping them could / would get you more caster so we compared them and
made some measurements. Unfortunately they were the same,
Place the Right upper control arm on your workbench with the ball joint
facing you (taper and threads pointing down) and the bushing holes away from
you; the arm on your right is the front arm of the control arm, the arm on
the left is the rear arm.
Install the offset bushing in the front arm of the control arm so that the
hole for the adjusting bolt is as far from the ball joint as possible.
Install the offset bushing in the rear arm of the control arm so that the
hole for the adjusting bolt is as close to the ball joint as possible.
This will move the Right upper control arm ball joint rearward and enable
you to get more caster.
Place the Left upper control arm on your workbench with the ball joint
facing you (taper pointing down) and the bushing holes away from you; the
arm on your left is the front arm of the control arm, the arm on the right
is the rear arm.
Install the offset bushing in the front arm of the control arm so that the
hole for the adjusting bolt is as far from the ball joint as possible.
Install the offset bushing in the rear arm of the control arm so that the
hole for the adjusting bolt is as close to the ball joint as possible.
This will move the Left upper control arm ball joint rearward and enable you
to get more caster.
When you install the upper control arms set the control arm rear adjuster on
both sides so that the bolt is as close to the GMC frame as possible. The
cam on the adjuster eccentric will be with the high side facing out. Use the
front adjuster to set the camber to "0" degrees or as close as possible, be
advised you may not be able to get "0" degrees camber. Adjusting the camber
to the minimum will result in the maximum caster you can get on your coach.
On Double Trouble Tom Hampton was only able to get 1.9 degrees positive
caster at zero degrees camber and zero toe in/out. John got 2.0 degrees
positive caster at zero degrees camber and zero toe in/out. It would have
been possible to get more caster on the left side.
A word to the wise; when installing rubber control arm bushings (upper
and/or lower) a "best practice" is not to tighten the bolts that retain the
bushings in the frame brackets to the specified torque until the GMC is on
the ground with full weight on the wheels. Leave the bolts loose enough so
that the steel sleeves in the bushings can rotate on the bolts. This will
allow the steel sleeves in the bushings to rotate around the bolts and place
them in the "middle" of their operating / twisting range when tightened.
Good Luck,
Rob Mueller / John Sharpe
Sydney, Australia / Humble, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Thursday, 11 March 2010 8:23 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
The bushings on the a-arms (top and bottom) are pretty well shot. I
understand I can use moog offset bushings to get more caster. My question:
do the offset bushings go on both sides of the upper a-arm, or just the
rear?
thanks,
Karen
1973 23' Patience Tester _______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76334 is a reply to message #76273] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 14:16 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Karen,
You can:
1) remove the wheel
2) remove the diagonal struts that run from the frame to the front
crossmember
3) put a floor jack under the lower control arm ball joint end
4) raise the floor jack until it compresses the shock a quarter inch or so
5) remove the shock absorber upper bolt
6) remove the shock absorber nut from the stud on the lower control arm
7) remove the shock absorber
8) remove the brake caliper and suspend it from the frame on a wire
9) remove the hub, knuckle & brake disk
10) SLOWLY lower the floor jack until the tension is off the lower control
arm
11) pull up on the ball joint ends of the lower control arms and take a
picture of the angle that the control arms are at on both sides from the
front and rear
12) measure and record the distance the torsion bar adjusters are screwed in
(out)
13) remove the rear torsion bar mount
14) clean the ends of the torsion bars and take a picture of both so you put
them in the same way.
Note 1: when you put the torsion bars in you MUST install the one marked "L"
in the driver side and the one marked "R" in the passenger side.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=30542
It doesn't matter which end goes where but the general consensus is to put
the ends pictured above in the porkchops.
Note 2: I did this awhile back and I can't remember if I removed the drive
axles or not.
Note 3: I've written these instructions sitting at my PC at home. I've
looked at photographs of the front suspension on the Photo site and gone
through it step by step. HOWEVER, I would appreciate it if someone would
review what I've written and make sure I've got it right and haven't missed
anything. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of energy stored in the torsion bars
and you could get seriously hurt if it was released quickly!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
PS - Ken H. - see I have learned!
Steve F. - I won't make your head hurt any more!
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Friday, 12 March 2010 5:22 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
wow, I'm always amazed at the wealth of information available for these
beasts.
Thanks!
Now, a related question: looks like I'll need a torsion bar unloader in
order to change the bushings on the lower a-arms. Has anybody had any luck
renting these from somewhere? Doesn't look like a standard Autozone
loan-a-tool item.
They're a bit pricey to buy for a one time job.
thanks,
Karen
1973 23' Patience Tester
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76337 is a reply to message #76273] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 15:06 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace the lower
control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk, etc, if I have
a torsion bar unloader.
OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the pullers
for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you describe.
So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
thanks,
Karen
> You can:
>
> 1) remove the wheel
> 2) remove the diagonal struts that run from the frame to the front
> crossmember
> 3) put a floor jack under the lower control arm ball joint end
> 4) raise the floor jack until it compresses the shock a quarter inch or so
> 5) remove the shock absorber upper bolt
> 6) remove the shock absorber nut from the stud on the lower control arm
> 7) remove the shock absorber
> 8) remove the brake caliper and suspend it from the frame on a wire
> 9) remove the hub, knuckle & brake disk
> 10) SLOWLY lower the floor jack until the tension is off the lower control
> arm
> 11) pull up on the ball joint ends of the lower control arms and take a
> picture of the angle that the control arms are at on both sides from the
> front and rear
> 12) measure and record the distance the torsion bar adjusters are screwed in
> (out)
> 13) remove the rear torsion bar mount
> 14) clean the ends of the torsion bars and take a picture of both so you put
> them in the same way.
>
> Note 1: when you put the torsion bars in you MUST install the one marked "L"
> in the driver side and the one marked "R" in the passenger side.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=30542
>
> It doesn't matter which end goes where but the general consensus is to put
> the ends pictured above in the porkchops.
>
> Note 2: I did this awhile back and I can't remember if I removed the drive
> axles or not.
>
> Note 3: I've written these instructions sitting at my PC at home. I've
> looked at photographs of the front suspension on the Photo site and gone
> through it step by step. HOWEVER, I would appreciate it if someone would
> review what I've written and make sure I've got it right and haven't missed
> anything. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of energy stored in the torsion bars
> and you could get seriously hurt if it was released quickly!
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> PS - Ken H. - see I have learned!
> Steve F. - I won't make your head hurt any more!
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76340 is a reply to message #76337] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 15:36 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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oops, I take that back. Re-reading the manual, the instructions include:
upper control arms require removing the wheel
lower control arms require removing the wheel _ASSEMBLY_ (which I assume means hub, knuckle, disk, etc)
Looks like a lot of work, with much opportunity for messing up expensive parts :-(
KB wrote:
> Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace
> the lower
> control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk, etc, if I
> have
> a torsion bar unloader.
>
> OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the
> pullers
> for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you describe.
>
> So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76343 is a reply to message #76340] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 16:05 |
George Zhookoff
Messages: 398
Registered: December 2004
Location: Snellville, GA
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Just finished this exercise over the holidays. It's not that hard, just
time consuming. Take your time, read all manuals a couple of times.
Ask questions here. Remove all items in your way. I could not break
apart lower ball joint from knuckle so I took off control arm with the
knuckle attached. Then removed ball joint.
Don't disconnect brake lines. You can use a floor jack to lower the
lower control arm enough to relieve stress from torsion bar. It's grunt
work to remove control arms but not impossible.
Checkout the write ups on front suspension rebuilds. Get Steve F
rebuilts from Jim K.
Better yet where are you located? Take it to one of the GMC shops!!!!
George Zhookoff
78 EL II
Atlanta
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:36 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
oops, I take that back. Re-reading the manual, the instructions include:
upper control arms require removing the wheel
lower control arms require removing the wheel _ASSEMBLY_ (which I
assume means hub, knuckle, disk, etc)
Looks like a lot of work, with much opportunity for messing up expensive
parts :-(
KB wrote:
> Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace
> the lower
> control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk, etc, if
I
> have
> a torsion bar unloader.
>
> OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the
> pullers
> for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you describe.
>
> So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76345 is a reply to message #76337] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 16:22 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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The knuckle, hub, brakes etc will be hanging from the upper control
arm. Very doable.
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:06 PM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
> Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace the lower
> control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk, etc, if I have
> a torsion bar unloader.
>
> OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the pullers
> for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you describe.
>
> So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
>
>
>
>> You can:
>>
>> 1) remove the wheel
>> 2) remove the diagonal struts that run from the frame to the front
>> crossmember
>> 3) put a floor jack under the lower control arm ball joint end
>> 4) raise the floor jack until it compresses the shock a quarter inch or so
>> 5) remove the shock absorber upper bolt
>> 6) remove the shock absorber nut from the stud on the lower control arm
>> 7) remove the shock absorber
>> 8) remove the brake caliper and suspend it from the frame on a wire
>> 9) remove the hub, knuckle & brake disk
>> 10) SLOWLY lower the floor jack until the tension is off the lower control
>> arm
>> 11) pull up on the ball joint ends of the lower control arms and take a
>> picture of the angle that the control arms are at on both sides from the
>> front and rear
>> 12) measure and record the distance the torsion bar adjusters are screwed in
>> (out)
>> 13) remove the rear torsion bar mount
>> 14) clean the ends of the torsion bars and take a picture of both so you put
>> them in the same way.
>>
>> Note 1: when you put the torsion bars in you MUST install the one marked "L"
>> in the driver side and the one marked "R" in the passenger side.
>>
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=30542
>>
>> It doesn't matter which end goes where but the general consensus is to put
>> the ends pictured above in the porkchops.
>>
>> Note 2: I did this awhile back and I can't remember if I removed the drive
>> axles or not.
>>
>> Note 3: I've written these instructions sitting at my PC at home. I've
>> looked at photographs of the front suspension on the Photo site and gone
>> through it step by step. HOWEVER, I would appreciate it if someone would
>> review what I've written and make sure I've got it right and haven't missed
>> anything. There is a TREMENDOUS amount of energy stored in the torsion bars
>> and you could get seriously hurt if it was released quickly!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob Mueller
>> Sydney, Australia
>> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>>
>> PS - Ken H. - see I have learned!
>> Steve F. - I won't make your head hurt any more!
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76359 is a reply to message #76340] |
Thu, 11 March 2010 17:40 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
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|
Karen,
You are correct it is a big job, however, it is not rocket science.
Whether you have the torsion bar unloader or not you will need special tools
to remove the tie rod ends and ball joints from the knuckles.
Reference MM X-7525 page 3A-12 Figure 14 and 15. However, these tools (or
ones similar) should be available at one of the local auto parts stores for
rent. Take the manual to the stores and show them the pictures and ask if
they have the tools.
You will also need special tools to remove and install the bushings in the
upper and lower control arms reference MM X-7525 pages 3A-13 to 3A-16.
However, you might be able to take the removed control arms to a shop that
has the tools and get them to remove and replace the bushings.
If you decide to install urethane lower bushings you will need to leave the
steel shells in the lower control arms.
By the way it is gratifying to find someone that READS the maintenance
manual before sending in questions!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Friday, 12 March 2010 8:36 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
oops, I take that back. Re-reading the manual, the instructions include:
upper control arms require removing the wheel
lower control arms require removing the wheel _ASSEMBLY_ (which I assume
means hub, knuckle, disk, etc)
Looks like a lot of work, with much opportunity for messing up expensive
parts :-(
KB wrote:
> Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace
> the lower control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk,
etc, if I have a torsion bar unloader.
>
> OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the
> pullers for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you
describe.
>
> So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76405 is a reply to message #76359] |
Fri, 12 March 2010 06:22 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
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Maintenance manual?
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Karen,
>
> You are correct it is a big job, however, it is not rocket science.
>
> Whether you have the torsion bar unloader or not you will need special tools
> to remove the tie rod ends and ball joints from the knuckles.
>
> Reference MM X-7525 page 3A-12 Figure 14 and 15. However, these tools (or
> ones similar) should be available at one of the local auto parts stores for
> rent. Take the manual to the stores and show them the pictures and ask if
> they have the tools.
>
> You will also need special tools to remove and install the bushings in the
> upper and lower control arms reference MM X-7525 pages 3A-13 to 3A-16.
> However, you might be able to take the removed control arms to a shop that
> has the tools and get them to remove and replace the bushings.
>
> If you decide to install urethane lower bushings you will need to leave the
> steel shells in the lower control arms.
>
> By the way it is gratifying to find someone that READS the maintenance
> manual before sending in questions!
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
> Sent: Friday, 12 March 2010 8:36 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
>
> oops, I take that back. Re-reading the manual, the instructions include:
> upper control arms require removing the wheel
> lower control arms require removing the wheel _ASSEMBLY_ (which I assume
> means hub, knuckle, disk, etc)
>
> Looks like a lot of work, with much opportunity for messing up expensive
> parts :-(
>
> KB wrote:
>> Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace
>> the lower control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk,
> etc, if I have a torsion bar unloader.
>>
>> OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the
>> pullers for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you
> describe.
>>
>> So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Karen
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76409 is a reply to message #76405] |
Fri, 12 March 2010 06:48 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yup.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven Ferguson
Sent: Friday, 12 March 2010 11:23 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
Maintenance manual?
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
wrote:
> Karen,
>
> You are correct it is a big job, however, it is not rocket science.
>
> Whether you have the torsion bar unloader or not you will need special
tools
> to remove the tie rod ends and ball joints from the knuckles.
>
> Reference MM X-7525 page 3A-12 Figure 14 and 15. However, these tools (or
> ones similar) should be available at one of the local auto parts stores
for
> rent. Take the manual to the stores and show them the pictures and ask if
> they have the tools.
>
> You will also need special tools to remove and install the bushings in the
> upper and lower control arms reference MM X-7525 pages 3A-13 to 3A-16.
> However, you might be able to take the removed control arms to a shop that
> has the tools and get them to remove and replace the bushings.
>
> If you decide to install urethane lower bushings you will need to leave
the
> steel shells in the lower control arms.
>
> By the way it is gratifying to find someone that READS the maintenance
> manual before sending in questions!
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
> Sent: Friday, 12 March 2010 8:36 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question
>
> oops, I take that back. Re-reading the manual, the instructions include:
> upper control arms require removing the wheel
> lower control arms require removing the wheel _ASSEMBLY_ (which I assume
> means hub, knuckle, disk, etc)
>
> Looks like a lot of work, with much opportunity for messing up expensive
> parts :-(
>
> KB wrote:
>> Hmm, interesting. If I'm reading the manual correctly, I can replace
>> the lower control arm bushings without removing the hub, knuckle, disk,
> etc, if I have a torsion bar unloader.
>>
>> OR, I can do it without a torsion bar unloader if I instead have the
>> pullers for getting the hub, knuckle, caliper, and disk off, as you
> describe.
>>
>> So, special tools either way, but some are likely easier to find?
>>
>> thanks,
>> Karen
> _______________________________________________
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76434 is a reply to message #76273] |
Fri, 12 March 2010 11:33 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Steven Ferguson wrote:
> The knuckle, hub, brakes etc will be hanging from the upper control
> arm. Very doable.
So you're saying I *don't* have to remove the knuckle, hub, brakes, etc to do the lower control arm bushings?
Revisiting the manual, I think you're right on that.
I was looking at the wrong section yesterday wrt the wheel/assembly removal. It doesn't
even mention the wheel in the lower bushing instructions -- perhaps it's implied?
For the record, here are the instructions for on-vehicle bushing replacement, paraphrased from the manual:
(Text in parenthesis is mine.)
Upper bushings:
1. Hoist vehicle, place floor stands under and firmly against lower control arm, remove wheel.
2. Disconnect upper shock absorber attaching bolt.
3. Remove cam assemblies from control arm.
4. Move control arm out of frame brackets
5. Use bushing tools to replace bushings
Lower bushings:
1. Hoist vehicle
2. Remove stabilizer link bolt. Discard bolt.
3. Place floor stands under frame horn (where's this???) and under points where frame sections are bolted.
Lower front lift to floor. (what front lift?? where??)
4. Install torsion unloader tool and remove torsion bar per instructions in other section
5 Remove lower control arm bushing bolts and pull control arm down until free of frame brackets.
6. Use bushing tools to replace bushings
I think from the instructions Rob provided, it's possible to get by without a
torsion bar unloader tool by careful and clever application of a floor jack. Not sure
if that's doable without removing the wheel, disk, knuckle, etc though.
thanks,
Karen
1973 23' Patience Tester
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76436 is a reply to message #76434] |
Fri, 12 March 2010 11:49 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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You have to remove the wheel. Everything else can hang from the upper
control arm. I will say though that you're only one nut away from
completely removing the lower control arm here so why not just go
ahead and do it. (Remove the lower ball joint retaining nut, break
the taper loose etc.) Here's an opportunity to clean the thing up for
a very thorough inspection, remove the bushings, paint, install new
urethane bushings and think long and hard about replacing those lower
ball joints, especially if they are original, or if someone has
replaced them before and used the 5/16 hardware. You will still need
an alignment when you have finished, no matter which way you do it.
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
> Steven Ferguson wrote:
> > The knuckle, hub, brakes etc will be hanging from the upper control
> > arm. Very doable.
>
> So you're saying I *don't* have to remove the knuckle, hub, brakes, etc to do the lower control arm bushings?
> Revisiting the manual, I think you're right on that.
>
> I was looking at the wrong section yesterday wrt the wheel/assembly removal. It doesn't
> even mention the wheel in the lower bushing instructions -- perhaps it's implied?
>
> For the record, here are the instructions for on-vehicle bushing replacement, paraphrased from the manual:
> (Text in parenthesis is mine.)
>
> Upper bushings:
> 1. Hoist vehicle, place floor stands under and firmly against lower control arm, remove wheel.
> 2. Disconnect upper shock absorber attaching bolt.
> 3. Remove cam assemblies from control arm.
> 4. Move control arm out of frame brackets
> 5. Use bushing tools to replace bushings
>
> Lower bushings:
> 1. Hoist vehicle
> 2. Remove stabilizer link bolt. Discard bolt.
> 3. Place floor stands under frame horn (where's this???) and under points where frame sections are bolted.
> Lower front lift to floor. (what front lift?? where??)
> 4. Install torsion unloader tool and remove torsion bar per instructions in other section
> 5 Remove lower control arm bushing bolts and pull control arm down until free of frame brackets.
> 6. Use bushing tools to replace bushings
>
> I think from the instructions Rob provided, it's possible to get by without a
> torsion bar unloader tool by careful and clever application of a floor jack. Not sure
> if that's doable without removing the wheel, disk, knuckle, etc though.
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1973 23' Patience Tester
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76455 is a reply to message #76273] |
Fri, 12 March 2010 13:43 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> You have to remove the wheel. Everything else can hang from the upper
> control arm. I will say though that you're only one nut away from
> completely removing the lower control arm here so why not just go
> ahead and do it. (Remove the lower ball joint retaining nut, break
> the taper loose etc.) Here's an opportunity to clean the thing up for
> a very thorough inspection, remove the bushings, paint, install new
> urethane bushings and think long and hard about replacing those lower
> ball joints, especially if they are original, or if someone has
> replaced them before and used the 5/16 hardware. You will still need
> an alignment when you have finished, no matter which way you do it.
I'll see how empowered I'm feeling when I get there. It already needs an alignment
due to the rear suspension work, but no point in doing that until the front work is done.
I found a torsion bar unloader on ebay, so I can do it by the book. From what
I've seen of other folk's work, I think I can fabricate whatever is needed to
replace the bushings.
Thanks all for the help.
Karen
1973 23' Patience Tester
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76485 is a reply to message #76455] |
Fri, 12 March 2010 18:38 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Talk to me about those bushings when you're ready...I don't want to
see you replace them with OEM style rubber ones.
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:43 PM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> You have to remove the wheel. Everything else can hang from the upper
>> control arm. I will say though that you're only one nut away from
>> completely removing the lower control arm here so why not just go
>> ahead and do it. (Remove the lower ball joint retaining nut, break
>> the taper loose etc.) Here's an opportunity to clean the thing up for
>> a very thorough inspection, remove the bushings, paint, install new
>> urethane bushings and think long and hard about replacing those lower
>> ball joints, especially if they are original, or if someone has
>> replaced them before and used the 5/16 hardware. You will still need
>> an alignment when you have finished, no matter which way you do it.
>
> I'll see how empowered I'm feeling when I get there. It already needs an alignment
> due to the rear suspension work, but no point in doing that until the front work is done.
>
> I found a torsion bar unloader on ebay, so I can do it by the book. From what
> I've seen of other folk's work, I think I can fabricate whatever is needed to
> replace the bushings.
>
> Thanks all for the help.
>
> Karen
> 1973 23' Patience Tester
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76523 is a reply to message #76273] |
Sat, 13 March 2010 07:57 |
petemosss
Messages: 221
Registered: August 2008
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Just received my Steve F. box of goodies and this stuff looks great especially the dust boots. I shopped this to death and Steve with the Urethane bushings and offset and reg. uppers shipped is cheaper than than the biggest Internet outfit.
This is truly a no brainer. Give Steve a call for bushings and sexy dust covers or go hog wild and call Jim Bounds or Jim K. for the complete reinforced arms.
Pete
74 Canyon Lands 26' "Emery"
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76534 is a reply to message #76273] |
Sat, 13 March 2010 11:21 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> Talk to me about those bushings when you're ready...I don't want to
> see you replace them with OEM style rubber ones.
I was planning to go with urethane bushings based on what I've read here.
But now I realize: I don't know why. Is it because they last longer?
Do they somehow improve handling??
thanks,
Karen
1973 23' Patience Tester
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] offset bushing question [message #76593 is a reply to message #76534] |
Sun, 14 March 2010 07:11 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Karen,
Yes, they definitely outlast the rubber. They also minimize front
end "squirm" under all conditions. Much less expensive, much easier
to install.
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 10:21 AM, KB <kab7@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> Talk to me about those bushings when you're ready...I don't want to
>> see you replace them with OEM style rubber ones.
>
> I was planning to go with urethane bushings based on what I've read here.
> But now I realize: I don't know why. Is it because they last longer?
> Do they somehow improve handling??
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1973 23' Patience Tester
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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