Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Good & Bad News
| [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #69990] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 22:59  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to the
machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in the
X-Birchaven. :-)
The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks out
of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the past
week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a rat-a-tat-tat
that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires we
confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first hypothesis is
correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine. Then
again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa last
March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only under
no-load conditions.
Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the engine and
open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have another
perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick it in
there after cleaning up any debris.
Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
don't think you should install it.
Ken H.
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #69993 is a reply to message #69990] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 00:41  |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 07 January 2010 20:59 |
Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks out
of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the past
week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a rat-a-tat-tat
that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires we
confirmed that #7 rod's knocking.  (
|
Ken,
I am sorry to hear you had a bad rod, but am thinking that perhaps we may have an explanation for some of the high knock counts you have been getting. It will be interesting to see if this changes things once you have a healthy engine. Perhaps a rod knock translates into dozens of knocks. It would be strange but interesting.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #69997 is a reply to message #69993] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 06:28 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Could be, George. Sort of strange though: during the knock evaluation
engine run and some vehicle shuffling since, the EC 43 and accompanying high
knock counts have not recurred.
My big concern now is whether to have the 7+ year idle QJ on the Cad 500
rebuilt for use when I first run that engine or risk being able to WAG in
the BIN for that engine. The BPC for a 500 ci engine, everything else the
same as for the 461, only moves from 127 to 138. I can't, off hand, think
of anything else to change. I sure don't want to pound the bearings out of
the Cad as I MAY have the Olds. With a new cam & lifters, I'll have to
start it and take it to 2000 rpm for 30 minutes. Comments?
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:41 AM, George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 07 January 2010 20:59
> > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
> >
> >
> > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks
> out
> > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the
> past
> > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
> rat-a-tat-tat
> > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
> > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
> > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires
> we
> > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :((
>
>
> Ken,
> I am sorry to hear you had a bad rod, but am thinking that perhaps we may
> have an explanation for some of the high knock counts you have been getting.
> It will be interesting to see if this changes things once you have a
> healthy engine. Perhaps a rod knock translates into dozens of knocks. It
> would be strange but interesting.
>
> --
> '74 Eleganza SE
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> George
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #69999 is a reply to message #69997] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:01 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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If you can get a roller cam, that would be my choice, no run in and less heat.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 5:28 AM, Ken Henderson <ken0henderson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could be, George. Sort of strange though: during the knock evaluation
> engine run and some vehicle shuffling since, the EC 43 and accompanying high
> knock counts have not recurred.
>
> My big concern now is whether to have the 7+ year idle QJ on the Cad 500
> rebuilt for use when I first run that engine or risk being able to WAG in
> the BIN for that engine. The BPC for a 500 ci engine, everything else the
> same as for the 461, only moves from 127 to 138. I can't, off hand, think
> of anything else to change. I sure don't want to pound the bearings out of
> the Cad as I MAY have the Olds. With a new cam & lifters, I'll have to
> start it and take it to 2000 rpm for 30 minutes. Comments?
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:41 AM, George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 07 January 2010 20:59
>> > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
>> >
>> >
>> > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks
>> out
>> > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the
>> past
>> > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
>> rat-a-tat-tat
>> > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
>> > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
>> > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires
>> we
>> > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :((
>>
>>
>> Ken,
>> I am sorry to hear you had a bad rod, but am thinking that perhaps we may
>> have an explanation for some of the high knock counts you have been getting.
>> It will be interesting to see if this changes things once you have a
>> healthy engine. Perhaps a rod knock translates into dozens of knocks. It
>> would be strange but interesting.
>>
>> --
>> '74 Eleganza SE
>>
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>>
>> George
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70000 is a reply to message #69990] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:23 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Just swing over with your car trailer and buy my AZ rust free Eldo.
Motor runs, no knocks.
Ken, if your detonation is serious enough to kill a rod bearing, you
should see evidence of detonation all over the spark plug electrodes.
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
>
> The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to the
> machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in the
> X-Birchaven. :-)
>
> The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
>
> For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks out
> of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the past
> week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a rat-a-tat-tat
> that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
> arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
> hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires we
> confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
>
> No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first hypothesis is
> correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine. Then
> again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
> engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa last
> March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
> Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only under
> no-load conditions.
>
> Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
>
> Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the engine and
> open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have another
> perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick it in
> there after cleaning up any debris.
>
> Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
> second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
> don't think you should install it.
>
> Ken H.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70005 is a reply to message #69997] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:38 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
The question you have to answer is would be less likely to have a problem
with a rebuilt carb than the EFI.
While not quite the same thing the Caddy 500 that I am building to run on
LPG will be tested and broken in with the carb.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Friday, 8 January 2010 11:28 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News
Could be, George. Sort of strange though: during the knock evaluation
engine run and some vehicle shuffling since, the EC 43 and accompanying high
knock counts have not recurred.
My big concern now is whether to have the 7+ year idle QJ on the Cad 500
rebuilt for use when I first run that engine or risk being able to WAG in
the BIN for that engine. The BPC for a 500 ci engine, everything else the
same as for the 461, only moves from 127 to 138. I can't, off hand, think
of anything else to change. I sure don't want to pound the bearings out of
the Cad as I MAY have the Olds. With a new cam & lifters, I'll have to
start it and take it to 2000 rpm for 30 minutes. Comments?
Ken H.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70007 is a reply to message #69990] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:41 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first hypothesis is
correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine. Then
again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa last
March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only under
no-load conditions.""
I have the feeling that something else is the cause. If the detonation was that bad I would think the top of your piston would be gone-plus you metion it hasn't been under any significant load. I'd be suspicious that whatever caused the first failure may have caused the second failure. Have you had any issues with coolant loss or oil pressure concerns?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70009 is a reply to message #69990] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:46 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Ken,
May have something to do with it or not, if that is a 455 (forgot if it was) but #7 crack journal is not "crossdrilled". It is only single drilled so # 7 bearing does not get quite as much oil-- if that is a cady motor, I have no idea
Jim Bounds
--------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
To: gmclist <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thu, January 7, 2010 11:59:23 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News
Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to the
machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in the
X-Birchaven. :-)
The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks out
of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the past
week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a rat-a-tat-tat
that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires we
confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first hypothesis is
correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine. Then
again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa last
March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only under
no-load conditions.
Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the engine and
open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have another
perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick it in
there after cleaning up any debris.
Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
don't think you should install it.
Ken H.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70010 is a reply to message #69999] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:53 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Carleton:
Quoter from Cad Company catalog:
"Hydraulic Roller Kits from $2195. Solid roller kits from $1995."
Which would you recommend I put in this $150 engine? :-)
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Carleton Douglas <aecsdouglas@gmail.com>wrote:
> If you can get a roller cam, that would be my choice, no run in and less
> heat.
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 5:28 AM, Ken Henderson <ken0henderson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Could be, George. Sort of strange though: during the knock evaluation
> > engine run and some vehicle shuffling since, the EC 43 and accompanying
> high
> > knock counts have not recurred.
> >
> > My big concern now is whether to have the 7+ year idle QJ on the Cad 500
> > rebuilt for use when I first run that engine or risk being able to WAG in
> > the BIN for that engine. The BPC for a 500 ci engine, everything else
> the
> > same as for the 461, only moves from 127 to 138. I can't, off hand,
> think
> > of anything else to change. I sure don't want to pound the bearings out
> of
> > the Cad as I MAY have the Olds. With a new cam & lifters, I'll have to
> > start it and take it to 2000 rpm for 30 minutes. Comments?
> >
> > Ken H.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:41 AM, George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 07 January 2010 20:59
> >> > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the
> kinks
> >> out
> >> > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over
> the
> >> past
> >> > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
> >> rat-a-tat-tat
> >> > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry &
> Lucy
> >> > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his
> functioning
> >> > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug
> wires
> >> we
> >> > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :((
> >>
> >>
> >> Ken,
> >> I am sorry to hear you had a bad rod, but am thinking that perhaps we
> may
> >> have an explanation for some of the high knock counts you have been
> getting.
> >> It will be interesting to see if this changes things once you have a
> >> healthy engine. Perhaps a rod knock translates into dozens of knocks.
> It
> >> would be strange but interesting.
> >>
> >> --
> >> '74 Eleganza SE
> >>
> >>
> >> Best Wishes,
> >>
> >> George
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> List Information and Subscription Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carleton Douglas
> 73 custom, by myself
> Prescott, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70011 is a reply to message #69990] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 07:55 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Ken Henderson writes...
> Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
> second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
> don't think you should install it.
Coupla points about the damange to "my" engine. One is that I recall
Dick B. stating that pinging under part throttle isn't particularly
damaging--they had tested engines for extended periods that were
pinging at part throttle. He added that pinging under full throttle
was quickly destructive.
Second thing is: Did you come to a clear understanding of what caused
the failure of #8 when you first installed the engine? (It was #8 not
#7 that failed before, as I recall.) Two of the same sort of failure
in one engine does make one wonder if something else is afoot, though
I don't know what that could be. Bad batch of bearings? Clogged oil
passages in the crank? Oil pump issue? I do recall that when you tore
down the engine to fix #8 you mic'ed or plastigauged the other
bearings to check them.
It may also be that with the new crank, there won't be an issue. I'm
not giving up on "my" engine just yet. Of course, I might have to come
down there and help you do it, but I'm just about to the point where
I'm ready to escape south (having just shoveled snow again this
morning).
Rick "facing a potential change in circumstances" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70012 is a reply to message #70000] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:01 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Just one problem with that, Steve: I don't think I can make it there & back
in one day and I can't bring my own bed with that knock in it. :-)
Thanks for the plug hint; I'd forgotten that; I'll check them today -- any
chance changing them now will help the knock? :-)
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
> Just swing over with your car trailer and buy my AZ rust free Eldo.
> Motor runs, no knocks.
> Ken, if your detonation is serious enough to kill a rod bearing, you
> should see evidence of detonation all over the spark plug electrodes.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
> >
> > The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to the
> > machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in the
> > X-Birchaven. :-)
> >
> > The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
> >
> > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks
> out
> > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the
> past
> > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
> rat-a-tat-tat
> > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
> > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
> > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires
> we
> > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
> >
> > No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first hypothesis
> is
> > correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine.
> Then
> > again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
> > engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa
> last
> > March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
> > Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only
> under
> > no-load conditions.
> >
> > Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
> >
> > Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the engine
> and
> > open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have another
> > perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick it in
> > there after cleaning up any debris.
> >
> > Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
> > second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
> > don't think you should install it.
> >
> > Ken H.
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70013 is a reply to message #70001] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:06 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
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Bruce,
You may not recall that this engine spun a rod bearing with <45 miles on a
total rebuild when I first installed it with a complete new frame clip.
That was #7 also. When discussing it with my NASCAR engine builder buddy
yesterday when we took him the Cad, the next question after he told me the
bearing failure was probably due to detonation was "is that the longest
intake runner?" I haven't gone and looked but I think not -- #8 & maybe #1
are equal length and longer than all the others. My impression, with no
collected data to back it up, is that #7 is the most frequent rod bearing
failure location. Other opinions/facts?
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
> Mine had a rat-tat-tat from the start that I didn't notice when I took it
> for a test drive. It only occurred when I was coasting above say 40mph,
> when the engine and drivetrain was just coasting along with the coach. A
> couple of mechanic friends thought it was just the play in a constant
> velocity joint. So I cannot blame the EFI for mine.
>
> Interestingly it was #7 rod bearing as well.
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70014 is a reply to message #70005] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:11 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yep, that's exactly my quandry: Which is more likely to get the engine
running quickly and hold up for 30 min @ 2000 rpm, a 7+ years idle QJ, or a
just-installed EFI with a BIN adjusted up from a 10% smaller engine? Even
if I have the QJ rebuilt for just that run, and perhaps a little break in
mileage, it probably won't provide as fast an engine start as the EFI.
Especially since I've now got EBL flash running, and have in hand a wide
band O2 upgrade for that, which will give the ECM complete learning
capability, I'm inclined toward EFI. Even with the questions about what
happened to the Olds.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> The question you have to answer is would be less likely to have a problem
> with a rebuilt carb than the EFI.
>
> While not quite the same thing the Caddy 500 that I am building to run on
> LPG will be tested and broken in with the carb.
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
> Sent: Friday, 8 January 2010 11:28 PM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News
>
> Could be, George. Sort of strange though: during the knock evaluation
> engine run and some vehicle shuffling since, the EC 43 and accompanying
> high
> knock counts have not recurred.
>
> My big concern now is whether to have the 7+ year idle QJ on the Cad 500
> rebuilt for use when I first run that engine or risk being able to WAG in
> the BIN for that engine. The BPC for a 500 ci engine, everything else the
> same as for the 461, only moves from 127 to 138. I can't, off hand, think
> of anything else to change. I sure don't want to pound the bearings out of
> the Cad as I MAY have the Olds. With a new cam & lifters, I'll have to
> start it and take it to 2000 rpm for 30 minutes. Comments?
>
> Ken H.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70015 is a reply to message #70012] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:09 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
did your 455 have oil restrictors ?(ala Mondello) #7 bearing failure is
sort of typical of oil pooling in the valve covers. ( a version of what
JimB said)
the 3 bearing failures that I followed on the 455 were caused by down
shifting the 455 during high speed down hill runs (like going into LV).
causes damage over time , (says JoeM) now you can ask him live;>)
gene
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Ken Henderson <ken0henderson@gmail.com>wrote:
> Just one problem with that, Steve: I don't think I can make it there &
> back
> in one day and I can't bring my own bed with that knock in it. :-)
>
> Thanks for the plug hint; I'd forgotten that; I'll check them today -- any
> chance changing them now will help the knock? :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Just swing over with your car trailer and buy my AZ rust free Eldo.
> > Motor runs, no knocks.
> > Ken, if your detonation is serious enough to kill a rod bearing, you
> > should see evidence of detonation all over the spark plug electrodes.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> > > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
> > >
> > > The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to
> the
> > > machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in the
> > > X-Birchaven. :-)
> > >
> > > The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
> > >
> > > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the
> kinks
> > out
> > > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the
> > past
> > > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
> > rat-a-tat-tat
> > > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
> > > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
> > > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug
> wires
> > we
> > > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
> > >
> > > No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first
> hypothesis
> > is
> > > correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine.
> > Then
> > > again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
> > > engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa
> > last
> > > March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
> > > Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only
> > under
> > > no-load conditions.
> > >
> > > Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
> > >
> > > Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the engine
> > and
> > > open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have another
> > > perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick it
> in
> > > there after cleaning up any debris.
> > >
> > > Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
> > > second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
> > > don't think you should install it.
> > >
> > > Ken H.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve Ferguson
> > '76 EII
> > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > Urethane bushing source
> > www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70016 is a reply to message #69997] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:24 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ken Henderson writes...
> My big concern now is whether to have the 7+ year idle QJ on the Cad 500
> rebuilt for use when I first run that engine or risk being able to WAG in
> the BIN for that engine. The BPC for a 500 ci engine, everything else the
> same as for the 461, only moves from 127 to 138. I can't, off hand, think
> of anything else to change. I sure don't want to pound the bearings out of
> the Cad as I MAY have the Olds. With a new cam & lifters, I'll have to
> start it and take it to 2000 rpm for 30 minutes. Comments?
My motto: Do one thing at a time. Dick P.'s advice: Make sure
everything is perfect before cranking that engine the first time--use
a checklist and don't take shortcuts. I translate those aphorisms to
using a carb on the new engine for the initial run-in. It *may* not be
optimal for running, but it is a proven technology and your peace of
mind is at stake. The EFI is a question in your mind, or you wouldn't
be bringing it up.
Rick "carbs are easy" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70017 is a reply to message #70011] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:26 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rick,
With my CRS, you could be right about it being #8 vs #7. First chance I
get, I'll check the crank. Nonetheless, it was on that journal.
I think all your other questions are addressed in the reply I just sent to
Bob deK.
You're welcome any time -- we've even just cleared your parking spot: Larry
& Lucy just left for Jacksonville, FL.
I hope the changed circumstance is the one we discussed a while back -- a
good, and not an unexpected bad, change.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Rick Denney <rick@rickdenney.com> wrote:
> Ken Henderson writes...
>
> > Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
> > second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
> > don't think you should install it.
>
> Coupla points about the damange to "my" engine. One is that I recall
> Dick B. stating that pinging under part throttle isn't particularly
> damaging--they had tested engines for extended periods that were
> pinging at part throttle. He added that pinging under full throttle
> was quickly destructive.
>
> Second thing is: Did you come to a clear understanding of what caused
> the failure of #8 when you first installed the engine? (It was #8 not
> #7 that failed before, as I recall.) Two of the same sort of failure
> in one engine does make one wonder if something else is afoot, though
> I don't know what that could be. Bad batch of bearings? Clogged oil
> passages in the crank? Oil pump issue? I do recall that when you tore
> down the engine to fix #8 you mic'ed or plastigauged the other
> bearings to check them.
>
> It may also be that with the new crank, there won't be an issue. I'm
> not giving up on "my" engine just yet. Of course, I might have to come
> down there and help you do it, but I'm just about to the point where
> I'm ready to escape south (having just shoveled snow again this
> morning).
>
> Rick "facing a potential change in circumstances" Denney
>
> '73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
> Northern Virginia
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70018 is a reply to message #70012] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:33 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That would be a pot of gold. Unfortunately, it won't help now. Hey,
I can meet you halfway somewhere in TX.
When I pulled down the 500 I built a couple of years ago, I found the
#1 main oil gallery hole in the crank off by over a quarter of an inch
(I don't know how that motor lived like that.) Liberal chamfering
solved that problem. Are #7&8 the last journals on the oiling food
chain? Take a hard look at the pickup tube, a clog here or blocked
screen would prevent oil from getting to that journal for a short
period after startup. Also, GM often used non standard bearings
during assy. I've pulled down engines with eveywhere from .001 to
.007 oversized bearings from the factory. This can easily be
overlooked when doing a quick ring & bearing rebuild. Just some
thoughts.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:01 AM, Ken Henderson <ken0henderson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just one problem with that, Steve: I don't think I can make it there & back
> in one day and I can't bring my own bed with that knock in it. :-)
>
> Thanks for the plug hint; I'd forgotten that; I'll check them today -- any
> chance changing them now will help the knock? :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Just swing over with your car trailer and buy my AZ rust free Eldo.
>> Motor runs, no knocks.
>> Ken, if your detonation is serious enough to kill a rod bearing, you
>> should see evidence of detonation all over the spark plug electrodes.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>> > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
>> >
>> > The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to the
>> > machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in the
>> > X-Birchaven. :-)
>> >
>> > The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
>> >
>> > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the kinks
>> out
>> > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over the
>> past
>> > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
>> rat-a-tat-tat
>> > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry & Lucy
>> > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his functioning
>> > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug wires
>> we
>> > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
>> >
>> > No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first hypothesis
>> is
>> > correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this engine.
>> Then
>> > again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And the
>> > engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa Rosa
>> last
>> > March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
>> > Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only
>> under
>> > no-load conditions.
>> >
>> > Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
>> >
>> > Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the engine
>> and
>> > open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have another
>> > perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick it in
>> > there after cleaning up any debris.
>> >
>> > Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is the
>> > second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine, I
>> > don't think you should install it.
>> >
>> > Ken H.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > GMCnet mailing list
>> > List Information and Subscription Options:
>> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Ferguson
>> '76 EII
>> Sierra Vista, AZ
>> Urethane bushing source
>> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70019 is a reply to message #70015] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:33 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gene,
Yes, this engine does have Mondello's cam flow restrictors (the
justification for which I intend to explore with him at BS in May).
Aside from the trip to Santa Rosa, which really didn't involve much mountain
driving, this engine barely knows what a hill is. But if I'm on a "real"
hill (meaning one I can't maintain 50 mph in 3rd), I'm in 2nd or lower. The
68,000+ mile engine originally in the 23', now in the 26', has had a LOT of
that treatment, between Key West and Fairbanks, with no repercussions yet.
I'll certainly be consulting Joe about this failure. I expect to hear from
him after he completes the trip from CA to TN with his GMC.
Ken H.
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> did your 455 have oil restrictors ?(ala Mondello) #7 bearing failure is
> sort of typical of oil pooling in the valve covers. ( a version of what
> JimB said)
>
> the 3 bearing failures that I followed on the 455 were caused by down
> shifting the 455 during high speed down hill runs (like going into LV).
>
> causes damage over time , (says JoeM) now you can ask him live;>)
>
> gene
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Ken Henderson <ken0henderson@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Just one problem with that, Steve: I don't think I can make it there &
> > back
> > in one day and I can't bring my own bed with that knock in it. :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the plug hint; I'd forgotten that; I'll check them today --
> any
> > chance changing them now will help the knock? :-)
> >
> > Ken H.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Just swing over with your car trailer and buy my AZ rust free Eldo.
> > > Motor runs, no knocks.
> > > Ken, if your detonation is serious enough to kill a rod bearing, you
> > > should see evidence of detonation all over the spark plug electrodes.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Well, I've got some good news and some bad news:
> > > >
> > > > The good news is that today Larry Weidner and I carried my Cad 500 to
> > the
> > > > machine shop to get it checked out and prepped for installation in
> the
> > > > X-Birchaven. :-)
> > > >
> > > > The bad news is that it's not really voluntary. :-(
> > > >
> > > > For the past couple of weeks I've been seriously trying to get the
> > kinks
> > > out
> > > > of my EFI, including adding the EBL flash upgrade to the ECM. Over
> the
> > > past
> > > > week or so at a fast idle of around 1800 rpm, I've noticed a
> > > rat-a-tat-tat
> > > > that I really couldn't hear well enough to identify. When Larry &
> Lucy
> > > > arrived, of course Larry and I had to get greasy. With his
> functioning
> > > > hearing, he was able to make an ominous diagnosis. By pulling plug
> > wires
> > > we
> > > > confirmed that #7 rod's knocking. :-((
> > > >
> > > > No explanation unless my NASCAR engine builder friend's first
> > hypothesis
> > > is
> > > > correct: Predetonation. I've heard no pinging EVER from this
> engine.
> > > Then
> > > > again, my straight through steel pack mufflers are REAL quiet. And
> the
> > > > engine has not been under significant load since we went to Santa
> Rosa
> > > last
> > > > March. But I have been installing and tuning a Computer Controlled
> > > > Distributor and running some pretty large spark advances, though only
> > > under
> > > > no-load conditions.
> > > >
> > > > Oh well, with only lemons, one must make lemon pie or lemonade.
> > > >
> > > > Dependent on the engine builder's progress, I'll soon remove the
> engine
> > > and
> > > > open the bottom end to see exactly what's happened. I do have
> another
> > > > perfect, already polished crank in the shop, so I'll probably stick
> it
> > in
> > > > there after cleaning up any debris.
> > > >
> > > > Rick, I'm sorry I somehow damaged "your" engine. :-( Since this is
> the
> > > > second essentially unexplained #7 rod bearing failure in this engine,
> I
> > > > don't think you should install it.
> > > >
> > > > Ken H.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Steve Ferguson
> > > '76 EII
> > > Sierra Vista, AZ
> > > Urethane bushing source
> > > www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Good & Bad News [message #70020 is a reply to message #70009] |
Fri, 08 January 2010 08:37 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim,
Yes, it is a 455 and #7 is not cross drilled. After reviewing a lot of
discussion about that, I decided against it. That may have been a mistake,
but it sure hasn't hurt the only other 455 I've ever built -- just before we
first met in '99 -- which has about 68,000 on it now.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> May have something to do with it or not, if that is a 455 (forgot if it
> was) but #7 crack journal is not "crossdrilled". It is only single drilled
> so # 7 bearing does not get quite as much oil-- if that is a cady motor, I
> have no idea
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------
>
>
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