Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Fuel Flow Meter
| Fuel Flow Meter [message #362266] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 12:54  |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Has anyone install a fuel flow meter and transducer on their motorhome?
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362267 is a reply to message #362266] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 12:57  |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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I have installed a fuel flow meter and transducer from Electronic international on my airplane and was wondering if anyone has done this on their Motorhome?
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter [message #362268 is a reply to message #362266] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 13:50 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
MANY years ago I installed a multi-function gauge (similar to Digi-Panel
but more sophisticated) in a car. It had a "fuel flow indicator"
indicated. I found it virtually useless due to the constantly changing
accelerator position -- not at all like the consistent readings we get with
the basically immobile throttles in aircraft. Then I put EBL in the GMC.
Its "What's Up Display" (computer screen) has such a function. After my
experience before I never bothered to calibrate it and seldom select that
display. IIRC, Randy Van Winkle did carefully calibrate and uses his, as
does George Beckman.
My 2014 Honda CRV's dash has an "Instantaneous MPG meter" in the dash as
well as an average mpg readout. The average is useful; the instantaneous
merely entertaining: Watching it drop to 5-10 mpg on acceleration or climb
to 99 mpg when coasting.
Ken H.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM tomkatz3--- via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Has anyone install a fuel flow meter and transducer on their motorhome?
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362270 is a reply to message #362266] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 14:24 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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John, - Aircraft spruce carries them. It was some time ago and I don't know what the price was then. I saw a display only for sale on ebay for $200.00. I don't know what the transducer cost is? They must be calibrated together along with the location of the transducer in the fuel line.
Ken, - Thanks again! very useful information and makes a lot of sense. I don't know how the modern cars do it? Maybe just installing a vacuum guage will suffice for engine efficiency. I am installing the Howell Fuel injection system with the electronic ignition. I haven't opened the box as of yet and just purchased the O2 sensor boss (18mm x 1.5 nut) to weld in tomorrow. I think it is best for me to find the full capabilities of the soft ware before I add too much.
I am also welding in a 1/2" x 20 boss (grade 8 nuts) for the trans pan and for the final drive drains.
My flying buddies are always wondering where I am? I have been having so much fun working on this motorhome. I built my own helicopter, but I don't think that was half as much fun as this! I am now striping the exterior to get ready for the paint shop.
After Oki's radiation and operation, I am looking forward to another work party. We had a lot of fun at the last one and now I got Ken Frey a new griddle. His cooking pushed the event over the top.
Take care all, stay healthy and thanks so much for all the wonderful advise and help!
Tom & Oki
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter [message #362271 is a reply to message #362270] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 15:27 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
You didn't mention the EBL upgrade for the Howell EFI. I personally
wouldn't bother without that mod. I spent several months trying to
eliminate an off-idle stumble when I first installed Howell. Multiple
EPROMS from Howell and others didn't fix it. Finally, I bought
and soldered in the EBL mod. I cranked the engine to see that it still
ran, then shut it down. The next morning we got in the coach and went to a
rally 80 miles away. The stumble has not returned yet -- probably
50-60,000 miles or more.
I'd suggest spending the fuel flow meter money on the EBL. It does the
same as the modern cars: Counts the injector pulses it sends and, after
calibration, converts that known quantity of fuel to MPG. Trivial when
you've got a computer and the data. No need to install and calibrate a
swinging gate fuel flow transmitter and one less meter to worry about
(assuming you mount a tablet on the dash as many of us who are addicted to
tinkering with EBL do).
Ken H.
On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM tomkatz3--- via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> John, - Aircraft spruce carries them. It was some time ago and I don't
> know what the price was then. I saw a display only for sale on ebay for
> $200.00. I don't know what the transducer cost is? They must be calibrated
> together along with the location of the transducer in the fuel line.
>
> Ken, - Thanks again! very useful information and makes a lot of sense. I
> don't know how the modern cars do it? Maybe just installing a vacuum guage
> will suffice for engine efficiency. I am installing the Howell Fuel
> injection system with the electronic ignition. I haven't opened the box as
> of yet
> and just purchased the O2 sensor boss (18mm x 1.5 nut) to weld in
> tomorrow. I think it is best for me to find the full capabilities of the
> soft ware
> before I add too much.
>
> I am also welding in a 1/2" x 20 boss (grade 8 nuts) for the trans pan and
> for the final drive drains.
>
> My flying buddies are always wondering where I am? I have been having so
> much fun working on this motorhome. I built my own helicopter, but I don't
> think that was half as much fun as this! I am now striping the exterior to
> get ready for the paint shop.
>
> After Oki's radiation and operation, I am looking forward to another work
> party. We had a lot of fun at the last one and now I got Ken Frey a new
> griddle. His cooking pushed the event over the top.
>
> Take care all, stay healthy and thanks so much for all the wonderful
> advise and help!
>
> Tom & Oki
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter [message #362274 is a reply to message #362271] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 15:55 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I had a coach that had a off idle stumble when under load. Fully warmed up
and running in closed loop. Howell system with EBL. Tried couple of
different Binary files, no joy. Turns out that Randy VanWinkle was in my
area at the time, and he and I spent a couple of days on the coach and
cured the stumble, but it still had driveability issues. When he left and
returned to Missouri, we hooked up live output from the coach to his
computer in Missouri, I drove the coach duplicating the problems, he
captured them on his end, and took them apart, then accessed my EBL and
fixed it. Ain't the information age sumpthin'? Way better than a fuel flow
meter and a seat of the pants guess, cut,'n try, and repeat technique. Not
criticism of you, just trying to help you by giving you insight into what
this community can do to help you out.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 1:29 PM Ken Henderson via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> You didn't mention the EBL upgrade for the Howell EFI. I personally
> wouldn't bother without that mod. I spent several months trying to
> eliminate an off-idle stumble when I first installed Howell. Multiple
> EPROMS from Howell and others didn't fix it. Finally, I bought
> and soldered in the EBL mod. I cranked the engine to see that it still
> ran, then shut it down. The next morning we got in the coach and went to a
> rally 80 miles away. The stumble has not returned yet -- probably
> 50-60,000 miles or more.
>
> I'd suggest spending the fuel flow meter money on the EBL. It does the
> same as the modern cars: Counts the injector pulses it sends and, after
> calibration, converts that known quantity of fuel to MPG. Trivial when
> you've got a computer and the data. No need to install and calibrate a
> swinging gate fuel flow transmitter and one less meter to worry about
> (assuming you mount a tablet on the dash as many of us who are addicted to
> tinkering with EBL do).
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM tomkatz3--- via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> John, - Aircraft spruce carries them. It was some time ago and I don't
>> know what the price was then. I saw a display only for sale on ebay for
>> $200.00. I don't know what the transducer cost is? They must be
> calibrated
>> together along with the location of the transducer in the fuel line.
>>
>> Ken, - Thanks again! very useful information and makes a lot of sense. I
>> don't know how the modern cars do it? Maybe just installing a vacuum
> guage
>> will suffice for engine efficiency. I am installing the Howell Fuel
>> injection system with the electronic ignition. I haven't opened the box
> as
>> of yet
>> and just purchased the O2 sensor boss (18mm x 1.5 nut) to weld in
>> tomorrow. I think it is best for me to find the full capabilities of the
>> soft ware
>> before I add too much.
>>
>> I am also welding in a 1/2" x 20 boss (grade 8 nuts) for the trans pan
> and
>> for the final drive drains.
>>
>> My flying buddies are always wondering where I am? I have been having so
>> much fun working on this motorhome. I built my own helicopter, but I
> don't
>> think that was half as much fun as this! I am now striping the exterior
> to
>> get ready for the paint shop.
>>
>> After Oki's radiation and operation, I am looking forward to another work
>> party. We had a lot of fun at the last one and now I got Ken Frey a new
>> griddle. His cooking pushed the event over the top.
>>
>> Take care all, stay healthy and thanks so much for all the wonderful
>> advise and help!
>>
>> Tom & Oki
>> --
>> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
>> Kingsville, Maryland,
>> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter [message #362275 is a reply to message #362271] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 16:02 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
Sorry, I didn't get back here fast enough. I had to fire up the tractor to clean the "Michigan Sunshine" off the drives....
For many years, the OE ECUs that reported MPG were only reporting a calculation based on the injector pulse width. They actually totalize this for fuel consumed and kind of balance that against the quantity gauge to report the "miles to empty".
Before computer, we often put fuel flow measuring systems in test vehicles. While they did work, unless you were an engineer, they were completely disappointing. The system lag time cause by the carburetor float bowl could allow some crazy numbers to show up as instantaneous fuel demand.
The GPH instrument in the fuel injected aircraft engines I have known were just a pressure gauge that looked at the pressure feeding the fuel injection system.
The Ebay cheapies are way cheaper than we used to buy. I can believe that they are repeatable, but not accurate. By their very nature, they will have significant deviation at both ends of the operating range.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362277 is a reply to message #362266] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 16:29 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Ken and Jim, - I believe I have the EBL in the box. I had Nick at Applied send me the complete set up with the distributor.
Matt, - I can't talk tractors, Oki gets mad at me. I love old tractors too. Oki won't allow me to buy any more. After she yelled at me last, I came home with an aircraft tug. I told her it wasn't a tractor. She didn't understand the addiction. I have an 8N, TO35, Farmall "A", Farmall lowboy, Kubota and only live on 1/2 acre. I love working on them too.
I own a Maule with an O-360. I flew from Essex MD. to Augusta Ga. and the fuel flow was off by 1/10 gal. It does make sense that the throttle settings on an aircraft do not vary much and is most likely easier to calculate.
I am happy to now know the tablet and EBL will provide the desired data. I will try to fab a nice permanent mount for a tablet which will allow for a constant display of all systems.
Jim, - Yes, I am very happy to have so many new friends in the GMC community. I can't say thank you all enough. It is so appreciated. When Oki and I ended up at the Mansfield, OH rally, I could never have imagined I would be where I am today. I so much want to see all the people we met again and I pray for everyone's health. What is happening to gas prices is my only next fear. I don't want my project to be a static display.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter [message #362287 is a reply to message #362280] |
Sun, 07 February 2021 23:16 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
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Senior Member |
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If you have the EBL, you can have a set digital gauges on a Windows PC using WinLog-EBL that I and Randy Van Winkle developed. Included are three Fuel/Mileage/MPG trip meters that use the EFI pulse width to calculate gallons. I reset one trip meter at the beginning of a trip, one each day, and one at each fill up.
You can have analog gauges and set them all so that 'normal' is up, add a digital display on the gauge or elsewhere, display a plot of variables, record all or some of the over 50 monitored points, and set alarms that play a WAV file. And much more. Look at the DevTechnics (WinLog) website and download the manuals for more info. PM me if you want to try WinLog-EBL and I'll get you set up on the WinLog-EBL website so that you can download some sample dashes.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362379 is a reply to message #362266] |
Sun, 14 February 2021 09:49 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Duce,
Very impressive. I just looked it up. You can see how much you have drawn out of each tank, remaining fuel in each tank and estimated time or miles to fuel starvation in a cruise configuration.
If it is like an airplane, it should be 100 time more accurate then a fuel guage. In every aircraft I have flown, we were taught to never rely on the fuel guage.
Good stuff.
Take care,
Tom
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter [message #362387 is a reply to message #362280] |
Sun, 14 February 2021 14:06 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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A vacuum gage can give you an idea .
On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM D C _Mac_ Macdonald via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> The indicators on my Kia Soul have a bar graph for
> instantaneous fuel mileage; similarly an entertainment
> device. The calculated average runs about 1.5 to 2.0
> mpg better than what I calculate each time I fill up.
> This is likely because I always fill up to the top of the
> fill pipe and what is contained therein may not figure
> into the computer calculations. This is just about the
> same as I have noticed on several Ford vehicles in the
> last decade.
>
> D C "Mac" Macdonald
> Amateur Radio K2GKK
> Since 30 November '53
> USAF and FAA, Retired
> Member GMCMI & Classics
> Oklahoma City, OK
> "The Money Pit"
> TZE166V101966
> '76 ex-Palm Beach
> k2gkk + hotmail dot com
>
> From: Gmclist on behalf of Ken
> Henderson via Gmclist
> Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2021 13:50
> To: GMC Mail List
> Cc: Ken Henderson ; Tom
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuel Flow Meter
>
> Tom,
>
> MANY years ago I installed a multi-function gauge (similar to Digi-Panel
> but more sophisticated) in a car. It had a "fuel flow indicator"
> indicated. I found it virtually useless due to the constantly changing
> accelerator position -- not at all like the consistent readings we get with
> the basically immobile throttles in aircraft. Then I put EBL in the GMC.
> Its "What's Up Display" (computer screen) has such a function. After my
> experience before I never bothered to calibrate it and seldom select that
> display. IIRC, Randy Van Winkle did carefully calibrate and uses his, as
> does George Beckman.
>
> My 2014 Honda CRV's dash has an "Instantaneous MPG meter" in the dash as
> well as an average mpg readout. The average is useful; the instantaneous
> merely entertaining: Watching it drop to 5-10 mpg on acceleration or climb
> to 99 mpg when coasting.
>
> Ken H.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362389 is a reply to message #362266] |
Sun, 14 February 2021 15:00 |
Tom Katzenberger
Messages: 399
Registered: June 2019
Location: Kingsville, MD
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
I have already settled on a simple vacuum guage to keep the engine at peak efficiency in lieu of the more expensive options. Also counting on the fuel injection/EBL and computer.
I have a steady flow of parts coming from Applied. Waiting on the Digi panel and some other items. Nothing is being held up, still lots to do.
Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
Kingsville, Maryland,
1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362403 is a reply to message #362266] |
Mon, 15 February 2021 08:13 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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another advantage of the EBL is to add additional sensors. I have a fuel pressure sensor on my system and that is shown up on the tablet. when my engine quit last year, I instantly could tell the efi computer could see rotation, and fuel pressure, so I was able to jump to ignition problems immediatly and found a bad coil being the culprit. Had I not known the fuel pressure was correct, I would probably have thought I had fuel delivery issue going on.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362419 is a reply to message #362379] |
Tue, 16 February 2021 10:12 |
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Tom I trained as an A&P guy, if I had my ruthers, readout would be in pph lol but that gauge is great to tell me when sometTom Katzenberger wrote on Sun, 14 gings wrong. Fore instance fuel burn of 6 gph is optimal at 55/60 mph since sone ass changed my fuel pump gauge hunts ant burns 8 gph at same speed. This tells me to much fuel is being pushed unto the carb...
February 2021 07:49Duce,
Very impressive. I just looked it up. You can see how much you have drawn out of each tank, remaining fuel in each tank and estimated time or miles to fuel starvation in a cruise configuration.
If it is like an airplane, it should be 100 time more accurate then a fuel guage. In every aircraft I have flown, we were taught to never rely on the fuel guage.
Good stuff.
Take care,
Tom
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: Fuel Flow Meter [message #362434 is a reply to message #362266] |
Wed, 17 February 2021 09:56 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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when I was flying, the fuel gauge was the left bird finger. On the GMC, that doesn't work. One of my senders works so I look at it when the coach is parked and level. Then I go fill up anyway and note the odometer, and 150 miles later fill it again. And so on till I get where I'm going.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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