Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Right to Repair
[GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #358742] |
Thu, 17 September 2020 17:22 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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An interesting note from the latest Rockauto newsletter:
Right-to-Repair will be on the ballot in Massachusetts. Visit
www.autocare.org/government-affairs/issues/massachusetts-right-to-repair to
learn more.
Will or won't it make autos more susceptible to hacking? -- which is
potentially going to become a BIG problem (for our toads, not the GMCs) --
especially as they become autonomous.
Ken H.
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #358743 is a reply to message #358742] |
Thu, 17 September 2020 18:05 |
SpookyEng
Messages: 208 Registered: June 2016 Location: Navarre, FL
Karma: -5
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With over the air updates cyber security for cars is becoming a huge issue. It’s not only cars, our airplanes have to be secured as well. Imagine your flight control computer being hacked.
JD Lisenby- USAF Ret
1978 Royale-455
MacDash, Manny Tranny, FI-tech, 3.70 etc etc
Navarre, FL
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #358751 is a reply to message #358747] |
Thu, 17 September 2020 19:53 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797 Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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The big thing that sticks out to me is the requirement that oems must allow
access to data which took a 10+k scan tool to do prior. That is Very good
for independent repair shops.
Sully
Bellevue wa
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 4:14 PM Zandr Milewski via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Right to Repair is orthogonal to system security. If RtoR makes things
>
> less secure, it's because of laziness in implementation. That's not new,
>
> it's the same thing we're fighting now.
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: I work in IoT, on a platform designed from the ground up for
>
> secure OTA updates.
>
>
>
> -Zandr
>
>
>
> On 9/17/20 15:22, Ken Henderson via Gmclist wrote:
>
>> An interesting note from the latest Rockauto newsletter:
>
>> Right-to-Repair will be on the ballot in Massachusetts. Visit
>
>> www.autocare.org/government-affairs/issues/massachusetts-right-to-repair
> to
>
>> learn more.
>
>>
>
>> Will or won't it make autos more susceptible to hacking? -- which is
>
>> potentially going to become a BIG problem (for our toads, not the GMCs)
> --
>
>> especially as they become autonomous.
>
>>
>
>> Ken H.
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> GMCnet mailing list
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #358758 is a reply to message #358751] |
Thu, 17 September 2020 21:37 |
SpookyEng
Messages: 208 Registered: June 2016 Location: Navarre, FL
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I agree with you on that one. You can’t change the coolant in my Volt without a $5K tool that one dealer out of the five within 30 minutes from me has.It is hard to balance intellectual property rights with consumer rights but it can be done. Without Right to Repair you will be locked into the dealer for the life of the vehicle (or corporate chains that can afford it).
JD Lisenby- USAF Ret
1978 Royale-455
MacDash, Manny Tranny, FI-tech, 3.70 etc etc
Navarre, FL
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #358779 is a reply to message #358742] |
Sat, 19 September 2020 06:00 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975 Registered: June 2019
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Alot of this is already implemented with the laws governing OBD2....same scenario. You dont need a 5k tool to diag or change fluids in your car, yes you may need a generic scan tool but you can still do it. That cheap scan tool will also give you the fault codes for your car and that will be less info than the dealerships scanner but you still can do it.
As for remote hacking....pretty hard to do honestly as the bricking technology is pretty good besides if your worried about people hacking cars/planes you better walk instead as it would have already been done.
Something to ponder before you start into me over this....do you want some backyard mecanic playing around with the HighVoltage battery system on your car?....do you know how to safely work around 600v and 500amps?....things have come a long way from the GMC days of basic cars, there is very little Joe Home Mechanic can do on any of these Hybrid and Etype vehicle...even dealership techs have to be qualified to do it.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #358786 is a reply to message #358780] |
Sat, 19 September 2020 11:56 |
Marsh Wilkes
Messages: 155 Registered: January 2004
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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You go Bruce,
If someone who doesn't even know what arc flash gear is, is dumb enough to
try
working on their Prius, just nominate them for the Darwin Awards. legitimate
repair shops,
even knowledgably owners, should not be intentionally put at such a
disadvantage to dealers. As
for car manufacturers and other mega corporations taking control of your
personal information,
and manipulation of products that you own for their benefit, the pricing of
INK for example, using
technology and government backing, don't even let me get started!
I know this is off topic, I won't say anything else.
Marsh Wilkes
Perry Fl
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Hislop via Gmclist
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2020 9:53 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Bruce Hislop
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair
Scary thing these days is they can write so many things into code that you
don't know about... think VW diesel scam a few years ago.
-Its easy for the manufacturers to make the engine peppy and responsive when
you test drive it... then after you buy it the performance slowly scales
back so it meets pollution and MPG guildlines.
-Or after a random number of miles/time it starts running crappy and throws
a code that tells the Dealer to change a certain part, even if its not
faulty. Then it goes back to running fine until the next fake issue!
-Or aftermarket parts can't be made because they wont release the codes to
talk to the control computer.
I think Right to Repair will make some of that more difficult for the
manufacturers.
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359147 is a reply to message #358796] |
Fri, 02 October 2020 10:01 |
Handyman
Messages: 229 Registered: April 2016 Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 2
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This happens all over the world, had that at a dealership of Hymer MHs in the Netherlands ,..
They told me at a yearly checkup of the Hymer part of my MH, they now were able to also service the Fiat Ducato “part” it was build on ...
I could get a free checkup .... well, I said ok .... let’s see. (did not tell them it was serviced a week before)
Two hours later they called, there was something really wrong with my steering and I had a leak in my cooling system.
They could repair it although it was not cheap, but “luckily he did get it in time” the mechanic told me ...
I told him, to stop right away, since I had that same MH just one week before for a yearly checkup at a Fiat dealership serviced!
Yearly safety test showed no problems (steering probs should have been clear then too, and my 1200 km drive from the south of France was without any (steering) problems, nor overheating) went and took the MH to Fiat, they were a bit alarmed, they might have missed something, but test turned out: no steering probs at all, pressure test of coolant system, also no problems ...
You imagine I had to talk to my MH dealer afterwards ..... !!
Daniel Jacobs, NL-USA 1977 GMC Eleganza II, Rebuild 455 (2019) 3.55 FD. FiTech and (Modified) FCC, Electric Pump, insulated GasTanks, 100A Alternator, APC, McDash, Schräder Valves + extern Fills, Ceramic Film, TPMS, FlexSteel Seats
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359149 is a reply to message #358742] |
Fri, 02 October 2020 14:42 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Rich, have a look at the Harris (GatesAir now) 3DX50, or the Nautel NV40 radios. You learn quickly to play with medium voltage at very high current. (Anything under a thou is medium). High is the 7 - 10KV at 3 or 4 Amps my tube radios used. The electric cars are much the same... take your wedding band off before you start. Lay it across 300 - 600Volts at many amps, it will weld into place, burn your finger off, and cauterize the wound, all in a matter of seconds.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2020 14:42] Report message to a moderator
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359150 is a reply to message #358742] |
Fri, 02 October 2020 16:50 |
kingd
Messages: 592 Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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"Right to Repair" is some what the reverse of what IBM got caught up with the Dept of Justice Consent Decree.
I still don't understand why APPLE get away with some stuff that decades ago cost IBM MILLIONS.
Any EX IBM people out there remember the times when we couldn't throw any paper away with business info
on it in case the DOJ subpoenad it at some later date ? When this was finally dropped by I think Ronald Regan, tha
amount of stuff being stored was staggering.
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359151 is a reply to message #358779] |
Fri, 02 October 2020 20:31 |
SpookyEng
Messages: 208 Registered: June 2016 Location: Navarre, FL
Karma: -5
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6cuda6 wrote on Sat, 19 September 2020 06:00Alot of this is already implemented with the laws governing OBD2....same scenario. You dont need a 5k tool to diag or change fluids in your car, yes you may need a generic scan tool but you can still do it. That cheap scan tool will also give you the fault codes for your car and that will be less info than the dealerships scanner but you still can do it.
As for remote hacking....pretty hard to do honestly as the bricking technology is pretty good besides if your worried about people hacking cars/planes you better walk instead as it would have already been done.
Something to ponder before you start into me over this....do you want some backyard mecanic playing around with the HighVoltage battery system on your car?....do you know how to safely work around 600v and 500amps?....things have come a long way from the GMC days of basic cars, there is very little Joe Home Mechanic can do on any of these Hybrid and Etype vehicle...even dealership techs have to be qualified to do it.
You maybe right but the first Chevy dealer I brought it too couldn’t figure it out. It has three separate cooling systems and the pumps have to cycle as its serviced to make sure there is no air in the system. I would have done it myself except for that issue. I agree that the mechanic needs to be properly trained but most dealer know jack about EVs. I brought up aircraft because we have a pretty comprehensive information assurance program on the aircraft we train in, the AC-130J. I am not worried about the garden level hacker but near peer competitors.
JD Lisenby- USAF Ret
1978 Royale-455
MacDash, Manny Tranny, FI-tech, 3.70 etc etc
Navarre, FL
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359251 is a reply to message #359151] |
Wed, 07 October 2020 20:05 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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This thread seems to have stimulated some interest -- even though we're
immune with the GMC. So it was interesting to find
in today's Georgia "Farmers and Consumers Market Bulletin" an article on
the same topic, regarding tractors. Farmers are facing the same dilemma:
They MUST use the manufacturer's technicians and new and used parts on
their recent models. Not certain how many companies enforce that policy,
but John Deere does, according to the article. State "Right to Repair"
laws have so far failed to pass. It's a bad situation when a tractor dies
in the midst of a harvest and the scarce technicians are already busy --
not to mention the uncontrolled expenses. :-(
Ken H.
On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 9:32 PM jdlisenby--- via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> 6cuda6 wrote on Sat, 19 September 2020 06:00
>> Alot of this is already implemented with the laws governing OBD2....same
> scenario. You dont need a 5k tool to diag or change fluids in your car,
>> yes you may need a generic scan tool but you can still do it. That cheap
> scan tool will also give you the fault codes for your car and that will be
>> less info than the dealerships scanner but you still can do it.
>>
>> As for remote hacking....pretty hard to do honestly as the bricking
> technology is pretty good besides if your worried about people hacking
>> cars/planes you better walk instead as it would have already been done.
>>
>> Something to ponder before you start into me over this....do you want
> some backyard mecanic playing around with the HighVoltage battery system on
>> your car?....do you know how to safely work around 600v and
> 500amps?....things have come a long way from the GMC days of basic cars,
> there is very
>> little Joe Home Mechanic can do on any of these Hybrid and Etype
> vehicle...even dealership techs have to be qualified to do it.
>
> You maybe right but the first Chevy dealer I brought it too couldn’t
> figure it out. It has three separate cooling systems and the pumps have to
> cycle as its serviced to make sure there is no air in the system. I would
> have done it myself except for that issue. I agree that the mechanic needs
> to be properly trained but most dealer know jack about EVs. I brought up
> aircraft because we have a pretty comprehensive information assurance
> program
> on the aircraft we train in, the AC-130J. I am not worried about the
> garden level hacker but near peer competitors.
> --
> JD Lisenby- USAF Ret
> 1978 Royale-455
> MacDash, Manny Tranny, FI-tech, 3.70 etc etc
>
> Navarre, FL
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359256 is a reply to message #359251] |
Thu, 08 October 2020 00:33 |
NextGenGMC
Messages: 146 Registered: December 2017 Location: Washington State
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2020 18:05This thread seems to have stimulated some interest -- even though we're
immune with the GMC. So it was interesting to find
in today's Georgia "Farmers and Consumers Market Bulletin" an article on
the same topic, regarding tractors. Farmers are facing the same dilemma:
They MUST use the manufacturer's technicians and new and used parts on
their recent models. Not certain how many companies enforce that policy,
but John Deere does, according to the article. State "Right to Repair"
laws have so far failed to pass. It's a bad situation when a tractor dies
in the midst of a harvest and the scarce technicians are already busy --
not to mention the uncontrolled expenses.
Ken H.
You are correct about impact of this technology on farmers. The convenience offered by electronic controls, GPS, speed sensors, etc., is invaluable, but only as long as everything works. I work in Ag. research, so I interact with many farmers throughout the season. Over the years I've run into several situations, where the farmer was literally stuck in the middle of the field with their tractor, unable to continue. In one case this was due to some sensor on the tractor stopped working. The tractor went into a "limp" mode and would not produce enough power to pull equipment even to the edge of the field. The fella went through every step of troubleshooting over the phone with the dealer mechanic - check this, check that, restart, check, etc. - No luck. They had to borrow a tractor from the neighbor to finish work (lucky for them a tractor of similar size was available). At the same time they had to wait for the dealership mechanic to show up with the special diagnostic tools to figure out what is going with their tractor.
This reliance on the stealership mechanics is getting bad enough in agriculture that the farmers are not even able to make what used to be a simple repair/modifications to their machines. Another grower I know, wanted to add a front PTO (power take off) to his tractor. Dealership quoted him some outrageous amount, so the farmer of course opted to bolt on the unit himself. After all, how hard can it be? Well, bolting the unit on was easy, as well as connecting hydraulic lines to the pump distribution bloc (which had provisions for front PTO). Unfortunately, the farmer still had to have a dealership mechanic come out with his tools (computer) in order to "flip" some internal switch in the tractor software so that it "knew" that it now has a front PTO drive. I don't know about you, but I would be really furious if I had to do this for every repair on the equipment on which my livelihood depends.
The standardization of OBD II system in the cars had given tree shade mechanics ability to at least access basic to medium level of diagnostic information on cars and work on fixing some things. I recall the times when I had to pay a shop $70 to just tell me what the DTC code was stored in the car computer ($140 if two codes were stored). Talk about the ripoff. New advances in computerizing automobiles should come with an ability to access that computer diagnostics as well. It seems that right now every manufacturer has their own idea of what software to run on cars and that is what causes everyone to "hold" their cards close and lock out and hide as much as possible. One way to address the "software secrets" is to provide a "diagnostics" menu withing their computer systems/software. Something that is built into each car (can't be that hard to add few hundred extra lines of code). Then folks who want to work on their cars, can at least see diagnostics information and decide if this is something they are willing to work on by themselves or if this is past their abilities. Yes, the 300+ volt batteries in EVs and hybrids are dangerous, but we are not talking about sticking a screwdriver between battery cells and wiggling them. We are talking about Macintosh vs. PC approach. With one you have a pretty box and graphics, but you can't touch or tweak anything. Can't even change a battery or keyboard in the laptop. While the other one may be not as shiny and stylish, but you can add and modify components even if you have just a rudimentary computer knowledge. There are people who buy a PC and NEVER open its cover. They are happy with what they have. Those are the people that will take their "wheeled" PC (i.e. their super electronic car) to the dealership for diagnostics and repair. When they grow tired of it, or want new features, they'll simply trade their car in and upgrade. On the other hand, there always were and always will be people who buy a new computer and as soon as they get home they open it up and start tweaking with the internals. Those are the people who would be just as comfortable making small tweaks to their car computers (within reason). If you do that, you know the risk and you proceed according to your level of knowledge and comfort. If we don't have options to do any sort of work on our cars, it means we don't really own them. We are just parking them temporarily in our driveways. Truly owning something means you can tweak it, break it and even destroy it (intentionally or unintentionally). You take on responsibility of maintaining the thing, as well as any risk associated with modifying it, even if it means risking to make something work worse that when it rolled off the factory floor. Without those risks, we are just Another Brick In The Wall...
P.S. sorry for the long rant. I guess the topic stuck a nerve.
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359262 is a reply to message #359256] |
Thu, 08 October 2020 08:47 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Today's cars are more appliances, than transportation. No user parts
inside. They, for the most part, all resemble a Toyota Camry, even once
proud brands like you could instantly recognize, like a Chevrolet Impala
have gone over to the "dark side". Is this a good thing? Big brother seem
to be just fine with it. If our socialistic leaning politico's have their
way, we will all be driving plug in, performance limited, cookie cutter,
Frigidaires with wheels, or, better yet, crammed into public transportation
like they do in Japan.
But, there is an up side to all this. Reliability has made some
incredible strides in recent years. 250,000 miles on the clock is not that
uncommon. American cars of the 50's and 60's seldom ran half that distance
before major work was required. Technology exists today to allow big
brother to remotely turn off your car, on bad smog days, or during high
speed chases, etc. Will it come to that? Only if good men sit by and do
nothing to prevent it from happening. (Rant off)
Stay well and healthy out there, life is short, live each day fully.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 10:33 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2020 18:05
>> This thread seems to have stimulated some interest -- even though we're
>> immune with the GMC. So it was interesting to find
>> in today's Georgia "Farmers and Consumers Market Bulletin" an article on
>> the same topic, regarding tractors. Farmers are facing the same dilemma:
>> They MUST use the manufacturer's technicians and new and used parts on
>> their recent models. Not certain how many companies enforce that policy,
>> but John Deere does, according to the article. State "Right to Repair"
>> laws have so far failed to pass. It's a bad situation when a tractor
> dies
>> in the midst of a harvest and the scarce technicians are already busy --
>> not to mention the uncontrolled expenses. :(
>>
>> Ken H.
>
> You are correct about impact of this technology on farmers. The
> convenience offered by electronic controls, GPS, speed sensors, etc., is
> invaluable,
> but only as long as everything works. I work in Ag. research, so I
> interact with many farmers throughout the season. Over the years I've run
> into
> several situations, where the farmer was literally stuck in the middle of
> the field with their tractor, unable to continue. In one case this was due
> to some sensor on the tractor stopped working. The tractor went into a
> "limp" mode and would not produce enough power to pull equipment even to the
> edge of the field. The fella went through every step of troubleshooting
> over the phone with the dealer mechanic - check this, check that, restart,
> check, etc. - No luck. They had to borrow a tractor from the neighbor to
> finish work (lucky for them a tractor of similar size was available). At
> the
> same time they had to wait for the dealership mechanic to show up with the
> special diagnostic tools to figure out what is going with their tractor.
>
> This reliance on the stealership mechanics is getting bad enough in
> agriculture that the farmers are not even able to make what used to be a
> simple
> repair/modifications to their machines. Another grower I know, wanted to
> add a front PTO (power take off) to his tractor. Dealership quoted him some
> outrageous amount, so the farmer of course opted to bolt on the unit
> himself. After all, how hard can it be? Well, bolting the unit on was easy,
> as
> well as connecting hydraulic lines to the pump distribution bloc (which
> had provisions for front PTO). Unfortunately, the farmer still had to have
> a
> dealership mechanic come out with his tools (computer) in order to "flip"
> some internal switch in the tractor software so that it "knew" that it now
> has a front PTO drive. I don't know about you, but I would be really
> furious if I had to do this for every repair on the equipment on which my
> livelihood depends.
>
> The standardization of OBD II system in the cars had given tree shade
> mechanics ability to at least access basic to medium level of diagnostic
> information on cars and work on fixing some things. I recall the times
> when I had to pay a shop $70 to just tell me what the DTC code was stored in
> the car computer ($140 if two codes were stored). Talk about the ripoff.
> New advances in computerizing automobiles should come with an ability to
> access that computer diagnostics as well. It seems that right now every
> manufacturer has their own idea of what software to run on cars and that is
> what causes everyone to "hold" their cards close and lock out and hide as
> much as possible. One way to address the "software secrets" is to provide a
> "diagnostics" menu withing their computer systems/software. Something
> that is built into each car (can't be that hard to add few hundred extra
> lines
> of code). Then folks who want to work on their cars, can at least see
> diagnostics information and decide if this is something they are willing to
> work on by themselves or if this is past their abilities. Yes, the 300+
> volt batteries in EVs and hybrids are dangerous, but we are not talking
> about
> sticking a screwdriver between battery cells and wiggling them. We are
> talking about Macintosh vs. PC approach. With one you have a pretty box and
> graphics, but you can't touch or tweak anything. Can't even change a
> battery or keyboard in the laptop. While the other one may be not as shiny
> and
> stylish, but you can add and modify components even if you have just a
> rudimentary computer knowledge. There are people who buy a PC and NEVER
> open
> its cover. They are happy with what they have. Those are the people that
> will take their "wheeled" PC (i.e. their super electronic car) to the
> dealership for diagnostics and repair. When they grow tired of it, or
> want new features, they'll simply trade their car in and upgrade. On the
> other
> hand, there always were and always will be people who buy a new computer
> and as soon as they get home they open it up and start tweaking with the
> internals. Those are the people who would be just as comfortable making
> small tweaks to their car computers (within reason). If you do that, you
> know the risk and you proceed according to your level of knowledge and
> comfort. If we don't have options to do any sort of work on our cars, it
> means
> we don't really own them. We are just parking them temporarily in our
> driveways. Truly owning something means you can tweak it, break it and even
> destroy it (intentionally or unintentionally). You take on responsibility
> of maintaining the thing, as well as any risk associated with modifying it,
> even if it means risking to make something work worse that when it rolled
> off the factory floor. Without those risks, we are just Another Brick In The
> Wall...
>
> P.S. sorry for the long rant. I guess the topic stuck a nerve.
> --
> Vadim Jitkov
> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> Pullman, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359263 is a reply to message #359256] |
Thu, 08 October 2020 08:42 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797 Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Take your new car into any dealer for a “diagnostic” around here and you
are looking at at least $125 roun here.
Sully
Bellevue wa
On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:33 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2020 18:05
>> This thread seems to have stimulated some interest -- even though we're
>> immune with the GMC. So it was interesting to find
>> in today's Georgia "Farmers and Consumers Market Bulletin" an article on
>> the same topic, regarding tractors. Farmers are facing the same dilemma:
>> They MUST use the manufacturer's technicians and new and used parts on
>> their recent models. Not certain how many companies enforce that policy,
>> but John Deere does, according to the article. State "Right to Repair"
>> laws have so far failed to pass. It's a bad situation when a tractor
> dies
>> in the midst of a harvest and the scarce technicians are already busy --
>> not to mention the uncontrolled expenses. :(
>>
>> Ken H.
>
> You are correct about impact of this technology on farmers. The
> convenience offered by electronic controls, GPS, speed sensors, etc., is
> invaluable,
> but only as long as everything works. I work in Ag. research, so I
> interact with many farmers throughout the season. Over the years I've run
> into
> several situations, where the farmer was literally stuck in the middle of
> the field with their tractor, unable to continue. In one case this was due
> to some sensor on the tractor stopped working. The tractor went into a
> "limp" mode and would not produce enough power to pull equipment even to the
> edge of the field. The fella went through every step of troubleshooting
> over the phone with the dealer mechanic - check this, check that, restart,
> check, etc. - No luck. They had to borrow a tractor from the neighbor to
> finish work (lucky for them a tractor of similar size was available). At
> the
> same time they had to wait for the dealership mechanic to show up with the
> special diagnostic tools to figure out what is going with their tractor.
>
> This reliance on the stealership mechanics is getting bad enough in
> agriculture that the farmers are not even able to make what used to be a
> simple
> repair/modifications to their machines. Another grower I know, wanted to
> add a front PTO (power take off) to his tractor. Dealership quoted him some
> outrageous amount, so the farmer of course opted to bolt on the unit
> himself. After all, how hard can it be? Well, bolting the unit on was easy,
> as
> well as connecting hydraulic lines to the pump distribution bloc (which
> had provisions for front PTO). Unfortunately, the farmer still had to have
> a
> dealership mechanic come out with his tools (computer) in order to "flip"
> some internal switch in the tractor software so that it "knew" that it now
> has a front PTO drive. I don't know about you, but I would be really
> furious if I had to do this for every repair on the equipment on which my
> livelihood depends.
>
> The standardization of OBD II system in the cars had given tree shade
> mechanics ability to at least access basic to medium level of diagnostic
> information on cars and work on fixing some things. I recall the times
> when I had to pay a shop $70 to just tell me what the DTC code was stored in
> the car computer ($140 if two codes were stored). Talk about the ripoff.
> New advances in computerizing automobiles should come with an ability to
> access that computer diagnostics as well. It seems that right now every
> manufacturer has their own idea of what software to run on cars and that is
> what causes everyone to "hold" their cards close and lock out and hide as
> much as possible. One way to address the "software secrets" is to provide a
> "diagnostics" menu withing their computer systems/software. Something
> that is built into each car (can't be that hard to add few hundred extra
> lines
> of code). Then folks who want to work on their cars, can at least see
> diagnostics information and decide if this is something they are willing to
> work on by themselves or if this is past their abilities. Yes, the 300+
> volt batteries in EVs and hybrids are dangerous, but we are not talking
> about
> sticking a screwdriver between battery cells and wiggling them. We are
> talking about Macintosh vs. PC approach. With one you have a pretty box and
> graphics, but you can't touch or tweak anything. Can't even change a
> battery or keyboard in the laptop. While the other one may be not as shiny
> and
> stylish, but you can add and modify components even if you have just a
> rudimentary computer knowledge. There are people who buy a PC and NEVER
> open
> its cover. They are happy with what they have. Those are the people that
> will take their "wheeled" PC (i.e. their super electronic car) to the
> dealership for diagnostics and repair. When they grow tired of it, or
> want new features, they'll simply trade their car in and upgrade. On the
> other
> hand, there always were and always will be people who buy a new computer
> and as soon as they get home they open it up and start tweaking with the
> internals. Those are the people who would be just as comfortable making
> small tweaks to their car computers (within reason). If you do that, you
> know the risk and you proceed according to your level of knowledge and
> comfort. If we don't have options to do any sort of work on our cars, it
> means
> we don't really own them. We are just parking them temporarily in our
> driveways. Truly owning something means you can tweak it, break it and even
> destroy it (intentionally or unintentionally). You take on responsibility
> of maintaining the thing, as well as any risk associated with modifying it,
> even if it means risking to make something work worse that when it rolled
> off the factory floor. Without those risks, we are just Another Brick In The
> Wall...
>
> P.S. sorry for the long rant. I guess the topic stuck a nerve.
> --
> Vadim Jitkov
> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> Pullman, WA
>
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359276 is a reply to message #359262] |
Thu, 08 October 2020 14:22 |
NextGenGMC
Messages: 146 Registered: December 2017 Location: Washington State
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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James Hupy wrote on Thu, 08 October 2020 06:47Today's cars are more appliances, than transportation. No user parts
inside. They, for the most part, all resemble a Toyota Camry, even once
proud brands like you could instantly recognize, like a Chevrolet Impala
have gone over to the "dark side". Is this a good thing? Big brother seem
to be just fine with it. If our socialistic leaning politico's have their
way, we will all be driving plug in, performance limited, cookie cutter,
Frigidaires with wheels, or, better yet, crammed into public transportation
like they do in Japan.
I didn't realize Japan was a Socialist country. If that is the case - sign me up for that any day.
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359277 is a reply to message #359276] |
Thu, 08 October 2020 14:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I did not mean to imply that Japan was a socialist country. Far from it.
But they have govt. employees whose jobs involve pushing more passengers
onto public transportation vehicles, like commuter trains. Covid not
withstanding. You are welcome to live there if that is your preference.
Personally, I hate the sounds of cities. Things like car alarms, trash
container lids slamming, car horns honking, random gunfire, apartment
dwellers passing wind in the next apartment, sound in any form not natural,
all of those things grate on my nerves.
Sometimes, I am glad that there are more sunsets in my past, than
there are in my future.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 12:23 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> James Hupy wrote on Thu, 08 October 2020 06:47
>> Today's cars are more appliances, than transportation. No user parts
>> inside. They, for the most part, all resemble a Toyota Camry, even once
>> proud brands like you could instantly recognize, like a Chevrolet Impala
>> have gone over to the "dark side". Is this a good thing? Big brother seem
>> to be just fine with it. If our socialistic leaning politico's have their
>> way, we will all be driving plug in, performance limited, cookie cutter,
>> Frigidaires with wheels, or, better yet, crammed into public
> transportation
>> like they do in Japan.
>
> I didn't realize Japan was a Socialist country. If that is the case - sign
> me up for that any day.
> --
> Vadim Jitkov
> '76 Glenbrook 26'
> Pullman, WA
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Right to Repair [message #359278 is a reply to message #358742] |
Thu, 08 October 2020 14:52 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548 Registered: March 2007 Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I’ve never driven a better car than our Tesla Model 3. The “tank” is full each morning. It’s FAST. Very low maintenance. And I think it’s a damned attractive car.
All the complexity of modern ICE’s make my head spin. Variable valve timing. Variable compression. Even CVTs are hard for me to comprehend.
Electric motor + battery + computer controls seem less complex.
Larry Davick
‘76 Palm Beach
> On Oct 8, 2020, at 12:36 PM, James Hupy via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I did not mean to imply that Japan was a socialist country. Far from it.
> But they have govt. employees whose jobs involve pushing more passengers
> onto public transportation vehicles, like commuter trains. Covid not
> withstanding. You are welcome to live there if that is your preference.
> Personally, I hate the sounds of cities. Things like car alarms, trash
> container lids slamming, car horns honking, random gunfire, apartment
> dwellers passing wind in the next apartment, sound in any form not natural,
> all of those things grate on my nerves.
> Sometimes, I am glad that there are more sunsets in my past, than
> there are in my future.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 12:23 PM Vadim Jitkov via Gmclist > gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> James Hupy wrote on Thu, 08 October 2020 06:47
>>> Today's cars are more appliances, than transportation. No user parts
>>> inside. They, for the most part, all resemble a Toyota Camry, even once
>>> proud brands like you could instantly recognize, like a Chevrolet Impala
>>> have gone over to the "dark side". Is this a good thing? Big brother seem
>>> to be just fine with it. If our socialistic leaning politico's have their
>>> way, we will all be driving plug in, performance limited, cookie cutter,
>>> Frigidaires with wheels, or, better yet, crammed into public
>> transportation
>>> like they do in Japan.
>>
>> I didn't realize Japan was a Socialist country. If that is the case - sign
>> me up for that any day.
>> --
>> Vadim Jitkov
>> '76 Glenbrook 26'
>> Pullman, WA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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