Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » TZE166V902114 the odd number project.
| Re: [GMCnet] TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292325 is a reply to message #292312] |
Wed, 16 December 2015 13:38   |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=Xb1xVs7QMOyM8QeY5LmIDA#q=NEO
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:27 PM, notavailable wrote:
> thanks for the kind words and please accept my apologies for being
> "different" OK?
>
> I'll try to provide some explanations to ease some of your minds. I very
> rarely use email so to sign up I here I had to first get an email for that.
> when I first joined the email I used, I almost immediately forgot the
> password. then when I joined here on the forum, for some reason it wanted
> me to
> check that email and since I had no way too without a password.. I just
> figured I would start over and get another email and re-join the forum.
>
> well that didnt work because the forum still had me automatically signed
> in under the first login account (which I never used) and I could not log
> out
> for whatever reason so that I could re-login with my new (this account
> 1gmcmh)
>
> I really needed some input from others with experience on these machines
> on the coaches numbers so I decided to try and join the email list directly
> at that point. when I joined the list, instead of being dishonorable when
> it asked for a name, I just put "notavailable" and had no idea that was
> going to be read by other men/women here, I thought it was just something
> to make the software happy. but I was being honest, that info was not
> available.
>
> the reason is not what many of you seem to think either, from my studies
> in law the things were have taken for granted are not what they seem. things
> like identity, names, signatures, etc. just about everything actually. its
> quite astonishing really when you get right down to it.
>
> you should see the expressions of peoples face after thery ask you for
> your ID in real life and you tell them "youre looking at me". people
> absolutely
> glaze over or become hostile when you try to be absolutely honest.
>
> ever see the movie "the matrix"? remember the morpheous charater saying
> "people are not ready to leave the system [baby-lon] some people will fight
> to
> protect it" well, IMO thats kinda a good example of this situation. it
> goes deeper too but I'll have to refrain becasue I dont want to offend
> others
> sensibilities any more than I have here already.
>
> I will say this, each of your autographs are as good as gold and your so
> called identity is not what you might think it is.
>
> if this has peaked any of your interests and you want to investigate
> further I suggest starting with a law dictionary (I prefer blacks 4th and
> 5th
> editions) look up some key words like res, res-ident, signature, matrix,
> certificate. those are just off the top of my head but good starting points.
>
>
> Im not an attorney, and have no desire to be but I do have serious
> questions about what they are and how their system works and am a do it
> yourself-er
> by nature so it was a natural progression for me to go into law study.
>
> so there, I hope that help to ease some of your minds. not everything is
> how we think it is.
>
> "MY NAME IS NEO"
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
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| Re: [GMCnet] TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292345 is a reply to message #292332] |
Wed, 16 December 2015 22:53 |
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Anonymous
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more details for Bob and others who are interested in some of the mods.
link to LEDs used: http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Stars-83000511-02-Light-Natural/dp/B00BT0RSIM/ref=sr_1_85/187-7992578-4970638?srs=7488080011&ie=UTF8&qid=1449290690 &sr=8-85 but the same assembly with a brighter white instead of natural white might be better I noticed now that I have them in there but they are plenty bright.
heres a shot of the thumbscrew:
6mmX1.25 thread pitch and 35mm long overall with 28mm thread shaft which is slightly more than needed as you can see in the next photos.
this is the back side:
the spacer was made from 3/16" coroplast (corrugated plastic which is similar to cardboard)
taped on as you can see just to hold it to the backing plate but probably not needed since the screws clamp it altogether.
a close up of the threaded clip:
these and the dashboard screws may be a little tough to find and probably expensive but sourcing suitable alternative should be fairly easy. if anyone wants these exact parts though I think TJ Rutlands, a Ferrari Parts specialist based in GA would probably have them new or used. these screws are actually chrome plated brass.
I would use something made from stainless steel for alternative.
on the door lock actuator mount, I forgot to take a photo before I mounted it but I made it from a piece of angled steel that I cut, welded, and ground to fit but theres probably a way you could do it without a welder or even steel for that matter. if someone needs it though I can take it out and photo it though, it uses two of the actuators screws to attach to that and one you can see in the photo to attach it to the door frame but there at least 10 more other ways this could be attached Im sure.
the wiring depends on what you use for the remote. I used an autopage programmable two way car alarm and the neat thing with these is that you can also control other electronics with simple on/off or timed duration on then off with the press of a button (or two) on the remote. I use it for turning on and off the patio lighting, the headlights, the reverse lights but that may change if I decide Id rather control something else later on.
you could use a basic remote door lock kit only, that would be much easier to wire up Im sure. these kits an alarms will operate the locks without extra relays but since the GMC has aluminum construction (more resistive than steel)and longer than average wire runs I opted to use relays in this configuration for the door locks:
the other outputs on the alarm will definitely require relays as the output is only negative 12vdc @200ma so first relay to convert that to positive and second to switch that output to a higher amp output. let me know if you need diagrams for this also.
remote start is nice also and Im looking forward to actually being able to use it.
way on down the road after this rig is fully functional I want to incorporate some of the new wifi enabled tiny computer boards to play with engine management interfaces and control mostly all the electronics including the solar and power equipment. the possibilities and tinkering times will be endless!
I can imagine components available in the future for self aware, automated driving control but that might be a little to outta control, control LOL but hey.. just about everything new today uses fly by wire (no throttle cable) or traction control, ABS so its not that far off. the google corporation is doing it now actually but a DIY kit might be a little too much for the public safety in the wrong hands.
Ive actually had dreams about waking up from sleeping while moving down the road in a self driving coach LOL!
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| Re: [GMCnet] TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292347 is a reply to message #292295] |
Wed, 16 December 2015 23:16 |
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Anonymous
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Les Burt[1 wrote on Wed, 16 December 2015 08:23]If he successfully tags and drives his coach using that same VIN, the registered name and address of the coach owner will then be easy to obtain.
hi Les Burt[1],
not so if registered through a trust or LLC FWIW
Les Burt[1 wrote on Wed, 16 December 2015 08:23]
Not that I care, just that IMO, if you want to remain truly anonymous or "unavailable" you would be best to avoid the web completely. Every sentence you post to a public venue may contain tidbits that can be used against your wishes. If you enjoy being that cautious and strict about how you communicate publicly, fine. Just realize that others might have trouble communicating with someone who prefers to remain "unavailable".
private and anonymous are quite different also FWIW
Les Burt[1 wrote on Wed, 16 December 2015 08:23]
Enjoy our group and make the best of it.
thanks, I will try my best.
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| Re: [GMCnet] TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292350 is a reply to message #292109] |
Thu, 17 December 2015 01:45 |
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Anonymous
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Ken Henderson wrote on Mon, 14 December 2015 21:30
I've been here on the GMCNet since shortly after its beginning in 1998.
Never before, in my recollection, have we been accused of being less than
gracious in our greetings to and acceptance of anyone, including some
pretty boorish folks. So you might want to read back over the thread and
see where things have gone awry with your reception.
Now, if we can put all that behind us, let me greet you as a fellow
Georgian: I've got a '76 X-Birchaven, bought the last day of April 1998.
I've done a LOT to it over the years, leaving it now with modernized front
and rear suspensions and brakes, and a fuel injected 500 ci Cadillac
engine. I've driven that coach about as far as one can on paved roads in
the USA, from Key West, FL to north of Fairbanks, AK. I've been a member
of GMCMI, GMC Dixielanders, GMC Sunshine Statesmen, and GMC Eastern States
from most of those years. I have learned a little about GMC's and GMCers
during those years. They are, almost without exception, the finest folks
one could hope to meet anywhere. We're glad to have you join us.
There are experienced GMCers scattered widely in GA. If we knew where
you're located, I'm sure some one of those would be glad to get together
with you and help you decipher the mysteries about your coach -- and they
ARE mysteries. Even Bill Bryant, who unquestionably knows more about GMC
history than anyone else outside of the original GMC development team (and
probably even most of those who still survive) would probably need to lay
eyes on the actual coach to make a valid appraisal of what you actually
have -- the clues are many and subtle.
Let's put all the antagonism and conflict behind us and act like the "good
old boys" we really are.
hi Ken,
sorry I didnt reply sooner, I was starting to get agitated about the time i read your message here so I didnt want to write a reply while under that influence.
I do not recall having "accused" anyone here of anything much less a "we"? if I in fact have though then I ask for that or those man/men and or woman/women to forgive me.
I appreciate your greeting "as a fellow georgian" however, Im first and foremost a fellow man. we are all men and women here when it comes right down to it.
your post reminded me of a distant relative and fellow man who once sang "Ive been everywhere man" and "A boy named sue" LOL
your coach must really be something else. I can certainly appreciate stuff like that where a man has put in years of hard work and effort into something great.
maybe we can meet someday but Im really not much into the club stuff anymore, I was heavily in the past though with all sorts of machinery and I really enjoyed it too but I just do other stuff now and dont have alot of time for the club stuff however Im sure when I get this rig going I might want to at least pop in somewhere where others are once or twice though.
we could try to "decipher the mysteries" about this coach. I enjoy a good mystery though, that what life is, no?
thanks for posting though, all of you. the internet is really something. where else can you rub electronic elbows with the best of them? or bang elbows if you into moto racing or:
"if you want to talk fishin' then I guess that be OK"
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| Re: [GMCnet] TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292351 is a reply to message #292304] |
Thu, 17 December 2015 01:46 |
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Anonymous
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James Hupy wrote on Wed, 16 December 2015 09:33Heck, I speculate that he has three ex- wives and the IRS looking for him.
Only reason I could figger'. (VERY BIG GRIN)
seems to me.. the IRS have no eyes to look for anything, only REAL Men and Women ["acting" as IRS agents] do. have any of those Men or Women caused a fellow Man or Woman a harm, loss or injury?
[What IS Real? ~ Morpheous]
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292354 is a reply to message #291212] |
Thu, 17 December 2015 07:48 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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What I wanna know his, referring to the lizard in the first picture you posted, where is the lizard kennel in the coach? Haven't seen it yet.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292362 is a reply to message #292354] |
Thu, 17 December 2015 10:24 |
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Anonymous
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he just happened to be there when I had went back to get shots of the frame numbers so I figured that would make an interesting photo. its one of those color changers, I guess blue aint one of the colors they come equipped with though.
never saw him or any kin in the coach again but found signs or mice where they had nested above the water heater and chewed through the back bath wall panel into the bedroom.
the stink bugs had colonized the coach throughout though, they were easily into the thousands. their nests were in the breakerbox, the water heater electrical access panel, and the roof AC electrical covers. they really seem to like to be in direct contact with exposed wiring which I found interesting.
I didnt find much of anything else that was alive or had lived in the coach. I did find a small amount of coinage scattered about, none of it very special. the only really notable items found in the coach were two silver spoons though. one full silver and one plated, I cleaned them up and they will probably stay in the coach.
one gas receipt that was too faded to read the date on and a rock city brochure in the glovebox and thats about it.
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292465 is a reply to message #291212] |
Fri, 18 December 2015 23:14 |
78403
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2015
Location: Kingman AZ
Karma: 0
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I think you are doing some fine work. Its not easy that's for sure.
I cant believe everyone is hounding you for a name and address or if you have ever been seen. I thought everyone has a right to not want to disclose information about themselves. I myself like to be private and I got one of those (no info in signature) posts. I thought it was odd as I have never seen that before. I also don't understand why so much fuss over the VIN. It is your coach no one else's (I hope no else's).
I myself am considering deleting my account because of this behavior. I should not get hassled over a question or a post. Now granted I had only one hassle. It is the principle of peoples actions that have been shown.
Marvin Briggs
1978 23'birch redone interior modernized.
Mostly stock
olds 403 original 80,000 miles
Kingman AZ
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292470 is a reply to message #292465] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 01:37 |
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Anonymous
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78403 wrote on Fri, 18 December 2015 23:14I think you are doing some fine work. Its not easy that's for sure.
I cant believe everyone is hounding you for a name and address or if you have ever been seen. I thought everyone has a right to not want to disclose information about themselves. I myself like to be private and I got one of those (no info in signature) posts. I thought it was odd as I have never seen that before. I also don't understand why so much fuss over the VIN. It is your coach no one else's (I hope no else's).
I myself am considering deleting my account because of this behavior. I should not get hassled over a question or a post. Now granted I had only one hassle. It is the principle of peoples actions that have been shown.
hi 78403,
thanks for chiming in. its OK, and actually a small minority that seem to be having difficulty with something that is not the norm. the minority is just being more vocal or in this case expressive I guess so I think it seems worse than it is here because of that.
it started as a no name deal (its different, does not compute) then when ignored was escalated to a no signature line and I think the email list part adds to the confusion and so they went into a frenzy LOL
provided a valid reason (contract makes the law, is it not written? -rule of law- stuff) upon registering and seeing it was required in order to participate, things might not get to this point. one could either agree or disagree with certain terms but it is what it is.
the V.I.N. stuff I initiated, that is why I joined. you can look at my post history and find my first post to and go from there to see how I started here and how pleasant its been for me LOL
the numbers didnt match up to what info was on the net, nothing I have found leads me to believe this coach has been through any shady past but I have not been able to totally rule it out however the man I acquired it from had it for over ten years sitting in an open field right next to the road and thats not something someone told me either, it is first hand knowledge because Ive seen it sitting there for that long.
so at this point, I think if any other man wants to make a claim that this coach is their property, they will more likely than not, be barking up the wrong tree, to say the least.
anyway, dont delete your account because of a very vocal minority. I think for the most part we are all good men and women here and the rest are heading that way somehow whether they realize it or not IMO
everybody has a role to play, so please stick around.
A Hamilto wrote on Sat, 19 December 2015 00:01It might be some form of unconscious test that you have to pass to be accepted. That doesn't make it right, but the knowledge base makes it worthwhile to stick around.
how does that work (unconscious)? LOL! when you see stars, youve passed? I much prefer a rule of law (written contract agreement) myself.
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292474 is a reply to message #292470] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 09:18 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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There seems to a continuing mis-interpretation going here.
No body is demanding anything of anybody. If you choose to be part of the group and not a member of the family, the asylum is always available.
While I do encourage new people here to have a "complete" sigfile, most always I explain why. I try to not ask twice, but I have no running file, so it could happen. That asked for information is helpful to those of us that might choose to be of assistance to a new owner/member. There are some serious issues with model year of build, climate and the final fit that can matter a lot. We don't really care all that much except that it limits our capability to assist. I know that if I don't have the minimum information, I just go on my way.
While there have been some interesting cases, I will go into them no more than to say that I did meet an owner with an unrecognized name only to find out later that he was a member at GMCnet and in striking range. I did not know that until he had sold the coach at a loss because of a running problem. I will never know if I could have helped. That was his choice.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292493 is a reply to message #291212] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 12:50 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I doubt anybody wants to make a claim. It's merely interesting that the plate got on it in that mounting with that number, no more. If it were currently listed as stolen, the DMV would get a hit when you tag it. After ten + years, nobody gonna worry about it. Interestingly, in Alabama at least, a licensed dealer guarantees title to what he sells, I suspect it's the same most places. That is, if it's been sold by a licensed dealer and the owner from whom the vehicle was stolen comes after it, s/he can't have it; but does have an action against the dealer who sold it. Family friend (Ford dealer) got bit a couple of times on that. Meantimes, more pictures?
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292499 is a reply to message #292474] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 15:03 |
78403
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2015
Location: Kingman AZ
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 19 December 2015 09:18There seems to a continuing mis-interpretation going here.
No body is demanding anything of anybody. If you choose to be part of the group and not a member of the family, the asylum is always available.
While I do encourage new people here to have a "complete" sigfile, most always I explain why. I try to not ask twice, but I have no running file, so it could happen. That asked for information is helpful to those of us that might choose to be of assistance to a new owner/member. There are some serious issues with model year of build, climate and the final fit that can matter a lot. We don't really care all that much except that it limits our capability to assist. I know that if I don't have the minimum information, I just go on my way.
While there have been some interesting cases, I will go into them no more than to say that I did meet an owner with an unrecognized name only to find out later that he was a member at GMCnet and in striking range. I did not know that until he had sold the coach at a loss because of a running problem. I will never know if I could have helped. That was his choice.
Matt
This make since I just thought it was odd as I have never been told that before. I see what you mean though as you could have help that guy and he might have kept the coach.
Marvin Briggs
1978 23'birch redone interior modernized.
Mostly stock
olds 403 original 80,000 miles
Kingman AZ
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292513 is a reply to message #291212] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 17:46 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Turn that around - s'pposing instead of saying essentially "I'd rather not" for whatever reason, the gentleman had listed himself as Gumphrey Mohunch, or some other reasonable alias? Would you not then continue being helpful as appropriate? How would you feel upon finding out ol' Gumphrey was actually Sam Smith or somesuch? Is not an honest answer better than subterfuge? Or certainly no worse.
Remember, I come from a career where the staff's true names existed only on their FCC licenses back when those were required, and they were locked up in my shop files. The general public knew them by their air names, and one or two became so used to this over the years they had to look at their driver's license to remember who they were. They liked their privacy, the gentleman in question seems to as well. As long as he answers to 1gmcmh he's accessible to the degree necessary, is he not?
The above being said, realize that on the assumption the gentleman is truthful in his posts - and there's no reason to assume otherwise - a concerted effort would eventually find out who and where he is. I see no good coming from such an effort, and a lot of potential harm. Your mileage, however, may vary.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292519 is a reply to message #292465] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 19:56 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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78403 wrote on Fri, 18 December 2015 22:14I think you are doing some fine work. Its not easy that's for sure.
I cant believe everyone is hounding you for a name and address or if you have ever been seen. I thought everyone has a right to not want to disclose information about themselves. I myself like to be private and I got one of those (no info in signature) posts. I thought it was odd as I have never seen that before. I also don't understand why so much fuss over the VIN. It is your coach no one else's (I hope no else's).
I myself am considering deleting my account because of this behavior. I should not get hassled over a question or a post. Now granted I had only one hassle. It is the principle of peoples actions that have been shown.
I totally agree. There are some old crows here that think they own the website, but in reality, they are ruining it !
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292524 is a reply to message #292493] |
Sat, 19 December 2015 20:42 |
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Anonymous
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Sat, 19 December 2015 12:50It's merely interesting that the plate got on it in that mounting with that number, no more. If it were currently listed as stolen, the DMV would get a hit when you tag it.
yes, it is interesting. if the plate is in fact a fake or bogus though then I doubt it would come up stolen even if that was true. and even if it was, with the insurance requirements and such, I think that if it were to have been stolen at some point then the man or woman who had that loss would have probably been compensated for that loss.
Im not overly concerned about that but the plate itself looks quite fragile. as if it were to be touched with the slightest pressure it could at least crack in half (there is a minor surface crack already going horizontal on it) or possibly even crumble to pieces. its just really old plastic and its been in a fairly extreme environment and will be subjected to if not the same then close to the same conditions again.
so what would one do if that were the case? thats the big question for me. Ive been considering different ways I might could prevent that and preserve it without actually disturbing it. havnt had any great ideas yet though. Im sure theres a way to get a replacement somehow but that might require direct contact with the GMC CEO on a man to man level.
yeah heres a few more photos but just sorta more of the same for now. Ive got lots still in the camera to sort through when I get a chance.
upon reviewing and enhancing the photos I shot of the two frame numbers on this coach again in an effort to try and determine what the last number of the cancelled one actually is, I think was a five. this is very interesting because of the following:
bryant374 wrote on Mon, 14 December 2015 16:25
The highest 1973 TZE# I have listed is #3035 with a build date of 11-01-73
The lowest 1974 TZE I have listed is #0020 " " " " " 11-12-73
so, if this last number is a five then it is the same number that bryant374 has listed for another coach.
and it really appears that it is a five here so that could explain why this frame number was cancelled out. check this out:
all these photos have been rotated 180deg then converted with a negative function, then gamma and contrast adjustments were made.
look just below the last number, it seems there was another number just below it that was X'd out also?
and as best I can tell, both the last number and the apparently at least partial one below were a five.
also, I dont think there is any question that this coach was being assembled during the actual shut down. the date markings on the bath wall and floor, this cancelled out number, and the side plate all lead to this.
it would be interesting to learn more of how that shut down actually came and went about. did possibly they think it was the end of all production of these GMC's when news about it first came down from upper management to the men on the floor?
did the work in progress at that time get halted and moved around and scattered about causing more confusion for when it was finally resumed? is it possible that the early style plastic V.I.N. plates were already made up for the later years also before they made the change to metal ones? and was that a federal mandate that required this change and if so when exactly did this requirement start? also, was a special pop rivet also a part of the mandate?
I now think that the frame number was originally mis stamped to the same number as another one and had to be X'd out because of that. also possible that the V.I.N. plate was/is OEM but was maybe not supposed to be used however during the probably chaotic time of the shutdown it made it onto this coach and out of the factory this way.
anyone else who cares to comment about it, Im all ears.
thanks
edit: almost forgot. thanks for addressing USAussie's quest in such a fine manor Johnny.
oh, and another question.. if one were to take the frame number that is not cancelled out and make a V.I.N. number that follows the common consensus on the V.I.N. number break down, what might that be? TZE163100324?
thanks again
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| Re: TZE166V902114 the odd number project. [message #292546 is a reply to message #291212] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 07:49 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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That's an interesting circumstance, and an interesting set of numbers. P'raps someone who worked for a manufacturer could explain why a mistaken number would be Xed rather than simply grinding it off and restamping it. The latter would be somewhat less confusing, would it not?
Lemme point out, having met Rob, albeit briefly and having some several long conversations, I consider him a friend and a guru in some areas. I merely point out, different people have different value sets without any intent of disparagement (if that's a word)
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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