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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261601 is a reply to message #261596] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 11:16   |
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WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
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Ken Burton wrote on Thu, 11 September 2014 11:02OK, I just tried one of the bolts and it fits a 3/8"
12 point box end just beautifully.
Who can I blame this mistake on?
I know. It was Dan's fault
Thanks for the correction
Ken B.
Ken, I will take the blame this time. I just want folks to check the bolts on drivers side fairly often, for their own safety. I know some people say they have never tightened or checked them and no problems. But, it only takes a minute to check the rascals. If they have been used once, they will loosen up on you, so check them. Hey, I even check my header bolts for tightness and my transmission fluid for fullness. Why not swap socket and check torque on these little bolts while I am at it. Have seen what can happen when one of these axles comes loose.
Dan
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261611 is a reply to message #261566] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 12:19 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Robin,
This subject keeps coming up over and over and over and over and over. Several years ago I got some OEM 12 point bolts from Cinnabar
and drilled them myself.
I then reported what I had done on the GMCnet and as typically happens here I was told how difficult that would be by people that
had NEVER done it! It was not that hard, however, a cobalt drill, lots of lube, and a drill press makes it easier.
I was then told that the safety wire would not keep the bolts from loosing torque over time which is correct. However, I would bet
ANY amount of money that they would not loosen up and fall out!
I also concede that if they loosened enough it would be possible for the inner CV joints to rotate slightly at the flange interface
when one accelerated and decelerated. And if left long enough the bolt holes would become elongated and in theory the bolts could
shear if worn far enough, however, that would be highly unlikely as unless you're stone deaf you'd hear something when you
accelerated or decelerated.
Mc Master Carr has 1/16" (0.625 in) drills available for $3.06:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#29925A911
The also have a roll of 0.032 safety wire for $6.10.:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#8860K14
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
PS - If you're really keen on finding out how the 75 ft lb of torque affects these bolts you can search WAY back in my messages and
somewhere is an email that details the testing I did.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Geralds
Does anyone sell or has anyone tried finding the correct rated/sized bolts with a safety wire hole so that the bolts can be paired
up and saftey wired
like prop bolts? If these cannot stay tight, it might be worth it for piece of mind. Something I will consider when I get to be
mobile again.
Rob
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261614 is a reply to message #261572] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 14:29 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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A little history on why I changed the one ton instruction torque for the inner cv bolts.
Yes, the manual says 75 ft-lbs, which is a lot. It also says you can't re-use the bolts, which makes sense
given this very high torque. I installed ours to 75 ft-lbs originally, and had that torque in the instructions.
Then, when we had to replace the engine at Manny's house, he complained they were torqued too tight (we had to
undo the axle to clear the oil pan to get the engine out...) So, I started double-checking,
talked to KenH, did a little research. Both Manny and Ken said 75 ft-lbs is too high and they never do them that tight.
The various technical docs I found backed them up.
As a result, the one-ton kit instruction now says the following:
"Apply loctite to the inner CV joint bolts and torque them to 55-58 ft lbs.
(The manual states these should be torqued to 75 ft-lbs and replaced with new ones
if they are removed. However, that exceeds the recommended torque for ASTM Grade A574 bolts,
which are stronger than Grade 8.)"
Karen
1975 26'
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261620 is a reply to message #261593] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 16:27 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Dan, I have a kit with me.
Jim Hupy
On Sep 11, 2014 8:48 AM, "Dan Molnes" wrote:
> Jim, do you have a extra bleeder kit with you, I could meet you at Todd's
> shop if you do thanks, Dan 206 5795361
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 7:35 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
>> One slight reminder. On some, but not perhaps all, GMC final drive
> flanges,
>> the drivers side requires slightly shorter bolts because of clearance
>> issues directly behind the flange. If you use three long bolts from the
>> passenger side, BE SURE TO CHECK IF THEY WILL CLEAR THE FINAL DRIVE CASE.
>> BAD "STUFF" HAPPENS IF YOU DO NOT.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or.
>> 78 GMC Royale 403 (headed for Abbotsford, BC today to pack some front and
>> rear wheel bearings for a fellow
>> gmcer, Then will turn south to the USA and hook up with Todd Sullivan and
>> drop off an engine gantry. Wow, busy time for us.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Jim Miller wrote:
>>
>>> We are talking about the bolts that attach the inboard CV joints to the
>>> final drive's output flanges; these are not the bolts that you are
>>> referring to.
>>>
>>> Torque specs for important fasteners are listed in the service manual.
> I
>>> do not trust my memory so I check the manual when in doubt.
>>>
>>> --Jim
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Mickey Szilagyi wrote:
>>>
>>>> We just had the oil changed in our new 3.70 final drive after about
>> 1000
>>> miles of break-in. We had the pan removed so they could inspect the
>> inside
>>>> and they put on a new gasket which I think we got with the FD. Are
>>> these the bolts you are talking about, that hold the pan on? Thinking
>>> about this
>>>> I don't think it's them but the bolts that actually hold the FD in
>>> place. What torque should be used to hold these bolts in place?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> --
>>>> Mickey
>>>> 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261635 is a reply to message #261620] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 18:51 |
dan molnes
Messages: 166
Registered: October 2011
Karma: 1
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Great !! when will you be in Seattle, I'm not having much luck with my
brakes and my home made norwegian bleeder ,
maybe its the norwegian thanks Dan
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 2:27 PM, James Hupy wrote:
> Dan, I have a kit with me.
> Jim Hupy
> On Sep 11, 2014 8:48 AM, "Dan Molnes" wrote:
>
>> Jim, do you have a extra bleeder kit with you, I could meet you at Todd's
>> shop if you do thanks, Dan 206 5795361
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 7:35 AM, James Hupy
> wrote:
>>
>>> One slight reminder. On some, but not perhaps all, GMC final drive
>> flanges,
>>> the drivers side requires slightly shorter bolts because of clearance
>>> issues directly behind the flange. If you use three long bolts from the
>>> passenger side, BE SURE TO CHECK IF THEY WILL CLEAR THE FINAL DRIVE
> CASE.
>>> BAD "STUFF" HAPPENS IF YOU DO NOT.
>>> Jim Hupy
>>> Salem, Or.
>>> 78 GMC Royale 403 (headed for Abbotsford, BC today to pack some front
> and
>>> rear wheel bearings for a fellow
>>> gmcer, Then will turn south to the USA and hook up with Todd Sullivan
> and
>>> drop off an engine gantry. Wow, busy time for us.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Jim Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> We are talking about the bolts that attach the inboard CV joints to
> the
>>>> final drive's output flanges; these are not the bolts that you are
>>>> referring to.
>>>>
>>>> Torque specs for important fasteners are listed in the service
> manual.
>> I
>>>> do not trust my memory so I check the manual when in doubt.
>>>>
>>>> --Jim
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Mickey Szilagyi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > We just had the oil changed in our new 3.70 final drive after about
>>> 1000
>>>> miles of break-in. We had the pan removed so they could inspect the
>>> inside
>>>> > and they put on a new gasket which I think we got with the FD. Are
>>>> these the bolts you are talking about, that hold the pan on?
> Thinking
>>>> about this
>>>> > I don't think it's them but the bolts that actually hold the FD in
>>>> place. What torque should be used to hold these bolts in place?
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks.
>>>> > --
>>>> > Mickey
>>>> > 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
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>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: Black List call [message #261638 is a reply to message #261561] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 19:24 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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Why not put some blue torque stripe on the bolts after torquing them? Then when you do your walk around before a trip you can look up and check to see that the torque stripe is intact. Seems a lot easier than trying to drill holes and run safety wire. Remember there is a technique to safety wire and it cannot be installed so as to allow the bolt to loosen.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
[Updated on: Thu, 11 September 2014 19:25] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261648 is a reply to message #261638] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 20:17 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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This is an excellent idea Randy - however it will take very close inspection to determine if the stripe has rotated appreciably considering that the heads on these bolts are very small in diameter - either 3/8" or 7/16" - and the thread is NF. Only a few degrees of rotation will be enough to diminish the tension in the bolt to the point of ineffectiveness and I suspect a torque stripe might not have the resolution to show this. The bolts are not in the most convenient locations for up-close visual inspection.
With regard to sourcing and re-using fasteners: the bolts are only a couple bucks each from McMaster-Carr and there's only a dozen of them in the GMC- in my mind their cost is negligible compared with the cost of being broken down on the road. For this reason I will be following the recommendation of the GM engineers in two ways: 1) torque to spec and 2) don't re-use the bolts.
--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Sep 11, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Randy wrote:
> Why not put some blue torque stripe on the bolts after torquing them? Then when you do your walk around before a trip you can look up and check to see
> that the torque stripe is intact. Seems a lot easier than trying to drill holes and run safety wire.
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black List call [message #261661 is a reply to message #261614] |
Thu, 11 September 2014 21:22 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Karen, I will change what I tell people with regards to torque values on
the bolts on the cv flanges. GO with Karen's Recommendations.
Jim Hupy
A little history on why I changed the one ton instruction torque for the
inner cv bolts.
Yes, the manual says 75 ft-lbs, which is a lot. It also says you can't
re-use the bolts, which makes sense
given this very high torque. I installed ours to 75 ft-lbs originally, and
had that torque in the instructions.
Then, when we had to replace the engine at Manny's house, he complained
they were torqued too tight (we had to
undo the axle to clear the oil pan to get the engine out...) So, I started
double-checking,
talked to KenH, did a little research. Both Manny and Ken said 75 ft-lbs
is too high and they never do them that tight.
The various technical docs I found backed them up.
As a result, the one-ton kit instruction now says the following:
"Apply loctite to the inner CV joint bolts and torque them to 55-58 ft lbs.
(The manual states these should be torqued to 75 ft-lbs and replaced with
new ones
if they are removed. However, that exceeds the recommended torque for ASTM
Grade A574 bolts,
which are stronger than Grade 8.)"
Karen
1975 26'
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| Re: Black List call [message #261768 is a reply to message #261561] |
Sat, 13 September 2014 14:24 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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The guys who changed my transmission found all bolts ( but one) loose !
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292571 is a reply to message #261569] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 16:48 |
Tom Whitton
Messages: 235
Registered: February 2004
Location: Paducah, KY
Karma: 0
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I had a Black List call this afternoon from a new GMC owner who has oil in his radiator coolant and has some white smoke from the tailpipe. He is here in Kentucky but 211-miles east of me where he is working for Amazon in Campbellsville, KY. He thinks his problem is a bad head gasket or gaskets. I didn't venture a guess. He is looking for a reliable place to take the coach for repair. Campbellsville is about half way between Louisville, KY and Nashville, TN. Can anyone suggest who this man can contact? He isn't on the Net so I told him I would post his situation and would call him back with whatever I found. Also, suggested he sign up for the Net. Hopefully, we can help this gentleman.
Thanks,
Tom Whitton
26 foot updated GMC
Paducah, KY
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| Re: Black List call [message #292572 is a reply to message #261561] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 17:12 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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The only person I know of that works on GMCs in TN or KY would be Chuck Boyd in Knoxville. I agree sounds like a blown head gasket or cracked head although it COULD be a blown out oil cooler in the radiator.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292573 is a reply to message #292571] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 18:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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I don't know how they're doing, but the last I knew Mary Mondello was
continuing to operate Mondello Racing in Crossville, TN. She had hire a
manager who was mentored by Joe, and still had their previous staff. They
have the facilities and knowledge to do 'most anything -- except, prehaps,
engine R&R. For that, when Joe was still with us, Chuck Boyd used to drive
over from Knoxville to support Joe.
On the other hand, I've heard that Mary sold her GMC, and I haven't seen
her at a rally for a couple of years.
It's worth a call to (931) 459-2760 to find out since Crossville is only
about 140 miles
from Bowling Green (which should be about 1/2 way between Louisville &
Nashville).
As for getting there, if the oil's not contaminated (should be showing gray
if not) and not overheating, I'd be inclined to drive it that far -- IF I
didn't have road service (without which no GMC should be driven around the
block).
JMHO
Ken H.
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Tom Whitton
wrote:
> I had a Black List call this afternoon from a new GMC owner who has oil in
> his radiator coolant and has some white smoke from the tailpipe. He is
> here in Kentucky but 211-miles east of me where he is working for Amazon in
> Campbellsville, KY. He thinks his problem is a bad head gasket or
> gaskets. I didn't venture a guess. He is looking for a reliable place to
> take the coach for repair. Campbellsville is about half way between
> Louisville, KY and Nashville, TN. Can anyone suggest who this man can
> contact? He isn't on the Net so I told him I would post his situation and
> would call him back with whatever I found. Also, suggested he sign up for
> the Net. Hopefully, we can help this gentleman.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Whitton
> 26 foot updated GMC
> Paducah, KY
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292574 is a reply to message #292571] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 18:34 |
GMC Cruse
Messages: 606
Registered: June 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 3
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Tom Whitton wrote on Sun, 20 December 2015 17:48I had a Black List call this afternoon from a new GMC owner who has oil in his radiator coolant and has some white smoke from the tailpipe. He is here in Kentucky but 211-miles east of me where he is working for Amazon in Campbellsville, KY. He thinks his problem is a bad head gasket or gaskets. I didn't venture a guess. He is looking for a reliable place to take the coach for repair. Campbellsville is about half way between Louisville, KY and Nashville, TN. Can anyone suggest who this man can contact? He isn't on the Net so I told him I would post his situation and would call him back with whatever I found. Also, suggested he sign up for the Net. Hopefully, we can help this gentleman.
Thanks,
Tom Whitton
26 foot updated GMC
Paducah, KY
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That sounds like James (Wanderlust) who spent time at Jim Bounds place after having the GMC donated to him. I believe he was the one who revised Jim's blog site.
Mike K.
'75 PB
Southeast Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292576 is a reply to message #292571] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 18:57 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
Re-reading your message, I see that I just skimmed over important
information: The coach is now "stationed" in Campbellsville, not just
passing through. With that improved stability, the possiblities are
better. That's only 127 miles from Crossville -- probably a few less to
Mondello's. And only 193 miles from Knoxville. With the time constraint
apparently looser, either might be a feasible repair location.
Ken H.
On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Tom Whitton
wrote:
> I had a Black List call this afternoon from a new GMC owner who has oil in
> his radiator coolant and has some white smoke from the tailpipe. He is
> here in Kentucky but 211-miles east of me where he is working for Amazon in
> Campbellsville, KY. He thinks his problem is a bad head gasket or
> gaskets. I didn't venture a guess. He is looking for a reliable place to
> take the coach for repair. Campbellsville is about half way between
> Louisville, KY and Nashville, TN. Can anyone suggest who this man can
> contact? He isn't on the Net so I told him I would post his situation and
> would call him back with whatever I found. Also, suggested he sign up for
> the Net. Hopefully, we can help this gentleman.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292583 is a reply to message #292576] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 21:30 |
Jim Galbavy
Messages: 1443
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 7
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Ken,
When Mary hired the new manager, he fired and replaced the whole staff
and replace them with good people she and the new manager trusted. The should be able to help
even though Mary no longer owns a GMC, but that doesn't mean they don't
know a Olds 455. I'd give them a call.
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL
[Updated on: Mon, 21 December 2015 14:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292585 is a reply to message #261569] |
Sun, 20 December 2015 22:15 |
Tom Whitton
Messages: 235
Registered: February 2004
Location: Paducah, KY
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for all responses and suggestions. I didn't get the man's email address but told him I would call him Monday morning. I'll do that and give him the information you guys provided. His name is James Wheelock, who is apparently working in different places for Amazon. He posts his experiences on YouTube. The site is called Wonderlust Estate if you want to look it up. He did tell me that he had work done at the GMC Coop.
Since he's not all that far from Knoxville, I'm going to suggest for him to call and discuss his situation with Chuck Boyd. Considering everything that's probably the best suggestion.
Gentlemen, thanks for all your input off line and here on the Net. I'll let you know what Mr. Wheelock decides.
Tom Whitton
26 foot updated GMC
Paducah, KY
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292608 is a reply to message #261569] |
Mon, 21 December 2015 09:46 |
Tom Whitton
Messages: 235
Registered: February 2004
Location: Paducah, KY
Karma: 0
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Update...
Well, I got up early, made notes of the information, numbers and suggestions you guys made concerning my Black list call yesterday. I told the gentleman that I would call him today. Anyway, I placed a call to him at 8 AM EST (7 my time). He didn't answer so I left a short message and my number. Then, two hours later, I placed a second call to him and left a second message. I have not heard back from him and won't be calling again.
Thanks for all your input.
Tom Whitton
26 foot updated GMC
Paducah, KY
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| Re: [GMCnet] Black list call [message #292614 is a reply to message #292608] |
Mon, 21 December 2015 10:48 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Tom Whitton wrote on Mon, 21 December 2015 10:46Update...
Well, I got up early, made notes of the information, numbers and suggestions you guys made concerning my Black list call yesterday. I told the gentleman that I would call him today. Anyway, I placed a call to him at 8 AM EST (7 my time). He didn't answer so I left a short message and my number. Then, two hours later, I placed a second call to him and left a second message. I have not heard back from him and won't be calling again.
Thanks for all your input.
Tom Whitton
26 foot updated GMC
Paducah, KY
If he's working a shift in an Amazon warehouse I wouldn't expect him to call back until his shift ends. Those jobs are demanding and intensely monitored. There are many stories about Amazon warehouse workers you can dig up online. The pay is pretty good for temp work, but be prepared to be ridden hard and put away wet, especially this time of year.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: Black List call [message #292615 is a reply to message #261561] |
Mon, 21 December 2015 10:49 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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With reference to axle bolts - I wonder did GM want them to behave as 'stretch bolts' the same way VW and others do with some head bolts. Not reusable once they're stretched.
I had the axle bolts on a VW van (Sliding door, I think it was a '74) loosen to the degree that, by the time we heard the racket, the holes were oval. I drilled them and retapped them for larger diameter bolts. Whomever got that toy is going to wonder how it got metric fasteners every place but the Grade 8 SAE bolts on the axle flanges. We ran it another 100K miles like that, never a problem.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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