Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Cad 500 Serpentine Belt
| Re: [GMCnet] 455 Serpentine belt system. [message #78115 is a reply to message #78107] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 19:20   |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dave,
From those views I agree you're right so I did some more searching:
4.3 Diesel:
Note: click on "Click to view part image and information."
http://www.clearlyauto.com/catalog/1983/Oldsmobile/Cutlass-F85/V6-260-4.3L-D
sl/Cooling-System/Water-Pump-Gasket-Fan-Clutch
http://tinyurl.com/ygqwckg
455 V-8 with air conditioning:
Note: click on "Click to view part image and information."
http://www.clearlyauto.com/catalog/1975/Oldsmobile/Toronado/V8-455/Cooling-S
ystem/Water-Pump-Gasket-Fan-Clutch
http://tinyurl.com/ygsrflf
455 V-8 without air conditioning:
Note: click on "Click to view part image and information."
http://www.clearlyauto.com/catalog/1975/Oldsmobile/Toronado/V8-455/Cooling-S
ystem/Water-Pump-Gasket-Fan-Clutch
It appears that the bolt pattern IS the same but relationship of the large
connection to the two "wings" is different in the housings.
Also note the size of the impeller in the pump for vehicles WITHOUT air
conditioning! Wonder why it's so much larger? I would think it should be the
opposite, wouldn't you want more water circulating through and engine that
had an air conditioning condenser in front of the radiator?
Good find Dave!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Dave Mumert
Sent: Saturday, 27 March 2010 9:24 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 455 Serpentine belt system.
Hi
Here are the photos of the two water pumps taken from GMBs catalog.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5417
They look pretty similar to me. It would be nice to see the back side as
well, I had photos of the back side but can't find them anymore.
Dave
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Cad 500 Serpentine Belt [message #78124 is a reply to message #78079] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 20:35 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Les,
The key to the whole thing, really, was finding the '89 Mercury Marquis dual
crankshaft pulley. Looking a other junkers all around that one, probably
all big Fords & Mercuries of that era had similar pulleys. Also, my looking
at Fords in general was because others had referred me to Tauruses as having
similar pullies. I never saw one of those because of the obstructions
imposed by cross-ways engine mounting.
I used the water pump pulley from that Mercury also -- 'cause it was there.
Gene, the beauty of using two serpentine belts is that it's not necessary to
drive the water pump backward. That has apparently been the root cause of
the problems others have had with single belts -- there's simply no way to
route a single belt to have sufficient wrap without driving something
backward. I have been very surprised, during my recent junkyard
examinations of serpentine belts, at how many (most) cars run the water pump
backward off the back of the belt. And if you look at lists of water pump,
it's surprising how many engines have reverse rotation pumps available. I
did that when I first got interested in a serpentine belt for the 455 --
until Leigh built one, there was not one.
As I've said before, neither Bobby Moore nor I ever had any cooling problem
with a standard pump running backward. Others did. The only modification I
made to standard water pumps was to grind away as much as feasible of the
sharp corners of the pump casting interfering with the water seeking to
change direction exiting the pump. I know Manny went much farther, grinding
completely through the casting and welding new passages. Why others had so
much trouble and I didn't escapes me.
While I have only 25 miles on my Cad 500, I'm convinced the serpentine belts
are going to work out well. I've got several hours of 1500-2000 rpm run
time. The temperature climbs quickly to the 195*F thermostat setting -- and
stays there. The belts can be seen running smooth and steady, with NO
flapping as you see with V belts.
Developing a 2-serpentine setup for the Olds, using a more modern alternator
(and perhaps PS pump) is a worthwhile effort which can probably result in a
valuable, inexpensive, upgrade.
Ken H.
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> You might want to enquirer further, there were several GMC folks who went
> to the serpentine belt system for the GMC 455, and then discarded it.
>
> Wonder what Jim B has to say about it.
>
> gene
>
>
>
> > I want to upgrade to the CS130D alternator and also upgrade to a Sanden
> > type
> > A/C compressor. Going to a serpentine system at the same time makes a bit
> > more sense since I already need to fabricate some custom brackets for the
> > alternator. I'd like to source as many of the required parts as possible
> > from the men's mall.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Les Burt
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Cad 500 Serpentine Belt [message #78126 is a reply to message #78124] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 20:41 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Quote
"Developing a 2-serpentine setup for the Olds, using a more modern
alternator (and perhaps PS pump) is a worthwhile effort which can probably
result in a valuable, inexpensive, upgrade.
Ken H."
Exactly the thought I've had in my head for a while.
Your comment on driving the water pump in the original direction is also a
big concern of mine.
Thanks,
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 EL2
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] 455 Serpentine belt system. [message #78131 is a reply to message #78091] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 21:09 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Les,
I keep finding things I haven't addressed for you:
The PS pump return for HydroBoost is not a big deal -- one can easily braze
a return into any of the reservoirs. Almost all of the older pumps like
ours ARE like ours -- it's my strong opinion that there are really only two
similar pumps, those with tapered shafts and retaining nuts for the pulleys
and the later model with a straight shaft and press-on pulley. Swapping
between straight shaft V-belt pulleys and serpentine pulleys is a simple
matter of using the correct tool. Reservoirs are different because of
different mountings, but they all fit those 2 basic pumps.
There may be something to be said for going to one of the still later,
smaller PS pumps with remote reservoirs. I considered it, but the
serpentine belt, the Cad's pump mounting and location were ideal.
Alternator pulleys are similarly common: You can swap back and forth
between the two types on 'most any GM alternator.
I don't know details of A/C pulley exchanges, but I suspect they're
similarly easy. I bought a new Sanden with many-groove (10, IIRC) pulley
mounted -- that made my serpentine adaptation easy because I could align
with any 6 of those grooves.
From the collection of tensioners I have from the PO, who made some
modifications to Bobby Moore's design, Ford's seem to be most flexible for
design. With the short belts I used, no tensioners were needed (nor
practical).
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Les Burt <burtco99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for feedback from those of you who have done a serpentine belt
> conversion on their 455. Pros & cons. I've heard that some have taken the
> serpentine setup off due to problems. What where the problems?
>
> I want to upgrade to a CS130D alternator, Sanden type A/C compressor, and a
> newer PS pump with a hydroboost return port. These accessories can easily
> be
> found used in the men's malls and most come with serpentine pulleys
> nowadays. Doing a serpentine conversion might reduce the overall difficulty
> in finding suitable accessories. Custom brackets will no doubt be required,
> but I'm good at that.
>
> I am also curious if anyone has done a serpentine conversion that spins the
> water pump & fan in the original direction? I'd prefer this simply so that
> replacement waterpumps are easier to find. I don't want to have to look for
> another fan or special water pump.
>
> What Crank & water pump pulleys are being used? What tensioner? Knowing
> this
> info would save me a bit of time in looking for suitable donor parts.
>
> Thanks,
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> '75 EL2
>
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Cad 500 Serpentine Belt [message #78133 is a reply to message #78124] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 21:22 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
. I am not a point man on this, I am just saying, Nubee read this and other
projects, and think they have to do it.
I think the history of these changes is interesting --- for example, we have
not had one person come forward to say they have had it for years and
worked just fine...
I know there were problems with AC compressors ( on almost all of them),
don't know why they failed, but when they did, the serpentine made it
impossible to go on with out a new pump, ( the old system, just cut the
belt.)
1 I agree with Manny,. do it because you can (he dumped his serpentine, now
he is doing a 4cyl Dsl ;>)
2 don't see it as an upgrade(no improvement )
3 I have no problems with the OEM system
4 I am just interested in hearing the history of almost all of the mods.
5 Our Alternator is just excellent, and very inexpensive
just asking questions, not making trouble
gene
> Developing a 2-serpentine setup for the Olds, using a more modern
> alternator
> (and perhaps PS pump) is a worthwhile effort which can probably result in a
> valuable, inexpensive, upgrade.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] 455 Serpentine belt system. [message #78134 is a reply to message #78131] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 21:27 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks Ken,
I was aware of most of the interchangeability with pulleys and stuff. I need
to replace a bent pulley on my PS pump, and also need to braze in a second
return pipe to accommodate my Hydroboost. Apparently the newer versions of
our PS pumps have a higher relief valve setting, so I was hoping to solve
several issues by obtaining a more recent model of hydroboost PS pump.
Oh how these customizations are fun! I like a challenge, but with the
emphasis on reliability and ease of obtaining replacement parts when away
from home.
Thanks,
Les Burt
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Cad 500 Serpentine Belt [message #78138 is a reply to message #78133] |
Fri, 26 March 2010 22:03 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gene,
I am in agreement with your comments.
Due to several somewhat logical reasons/comments of my own, I feel that a
simple, well thought out serpentine upgrade could yield some very good
advantages.
Here are my comments regarding why I am interested in doing the serpentine
upgrade:
1) Because I can!
2) Upgrading to a recent model alternator increases chances of finding one
in stock at the only parts store for 100 miles. This also applies to the
belts, A/C Compressor, and PS pump.
3) I have no problems with the OEM system if it is in perfect order. Mine
isn't. I have a bent PS pump pulley, a broken PS pump bracket, and My A/C
compressor is toast. My Alternator works, but looks to have served over 15
years of service. As you can see, I need to replace quite a few parts.
Buying from the men's mall is the lowest cost solution, but OEM compatible
parts are impossible to find locally. Upgrading to readily available newer
components makes sense from a cost and availability point of view.
4) I also really want to hear from the people that have "been there, done
that".
5) I am a relative newbie, and I appreciate being able to reap the benefits
of everyone's hard learned lessons and ideas. I do feel that any new project
or idea needs to be thoroughly evaluated before taking the plunge. This is
why so many of us ask questions, and why so many more of you are happy to
answer them. This group of GMC owners is one of the best online groups I've
had the pleasure of communicating with.
(not wanting to make trouble, just trying to stir up the thinking process
for the rest of you out there)
Thanks,
Les Burt
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Fwd: 455 Serpentine belt system. [message #78262 is a reply to message #78248] |
Sun, 28 March 2010 10:53 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Doh!!!
I guess I'll never learn!!
I created a new thread by replying to an existing one and just changing the
subject. By doing this the forum view still follows the original thread
"Cadillac Serpentine Belt". I use e-mail to follow the discussions and keep
forgetting that a totally new message with new subject line needs to be
created in order to view that new message correctly by all members.
I'll re start the tread and see where that takes us.
Thanks,
Les Burt
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Jul 03 08:23:15 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03134 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
