Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] H20 Injection
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97360 is a reply to message #97352] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 17:42   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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I'm not inclined (yet) to start tinkering with water injection. But I did
yesterday take the first step toward a radiator sprayer: When I built the
new HVAC, I included a pretty effective condensate drain system -- two
nipples through the lowest part of the cabinet have plastic tubes leading to
a tee, the outlet from which has been draining into a 1 quart bottle stuck
wherever it would sit upright.
I've been amazed by how quickly that bottle begins to overflow -- 30 minutes
or less, typically.
With all the recent discussions about engine cooling, and my limited
experience with the Cad500 and its propensity to run 200*F-220*F, I've
decided to collect more condensate, and install a pump and spray nozzle
(windshield washer) aimed at the radiator. Yesterday a found that the space
behind the steering column, beside the radiator, is large enough for a 2-1/2
gallon jug I had on hand. It's now tywrapped in place with the condensate
hose through its cap. If I get to the parts store tomorrow I'll be in
business in an hour or two.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Mike O'Connell <moconnell2000@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
> If you are really motivated I recommend the following article to create
> your own water injection system:..
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97386 is a reply to message #97360] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 19:59 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Ken,
I'm not sure of exactly how you are going to atomize the condensate water
for spraying into the radiator, but as a thought, would it be equally
effective to spray the oil cooler? Smaller area to spray etc. I thought I
read somewhere years ago that 35 to 45% of the engine cooling was from the
oil. Am I correct in that theory? Or was it some hype from Quaker State?
Comments?
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> I'm not inclined (yet) to start tinkering with water injection. But I did
> yesterday take the first step toward a radiator sprayer: When I built the
> new HVAC, I included a pretty effective condensate drain system -- two
> nipples through the lowest part of the cabinet have plastic tubes leading
> to
> a tee, the outlet from which has been draining into a 1 quart bottle stuck
> wherever it would sit upright.
>
> I've been amazed by how quickly that bottle begins to overflow -- 30
> minutes
> or less, typically.
>
> With all the recent discussions about engine cooling, and my limited
> experience with the Cad500 and its propensity to run 200*F-220*F, I've
> decided to collect more condensate, and install a pump and spray nozzle
> (windshield washer) aimed at the radiator. Yesterday a found that the
> space
> behind the steering column, beside the radiator, is large enough for a
> 2-1/2
> gallon jug I had on hand. It's now tywrapped in place with the condensate
> hose through its cap. If I get to the parts store tomorrow I'll be in
> business in an hour or two.
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Mike O'Connell <moconnell2000@yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > If you are really motivated I recommend the following article to create
> > your own water injection system:..
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97390 is a reply to message #97386] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 21:00 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
At this stage, I'm just planning a little experiment: a windshield washer
nozzle or two aimed at the A/C condenser. I'm expecting most of the water
to pass through onto the radiator, and probably some will find its way down
to the external engine oil and transmission cooler I have mounted below the
condenser. Maybe I can devise a flexible mount for the nozzles (perhaps a
vertical mounting bar) so it will be easy to try different patterns. But,
I'm just planning to tinker with it -- not get into a planned, controlled
test program like some I've attempted. :-)
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Tom Eckert <gmcrv1@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I'm not sure of exactly how you are going to atomize the condensate water
> for spraying into the radiator, but as a thought, would it be equally
> effective to spray the oil cooler? Smaller area to spray etc. I thought I
> read somewhere years ago that 35 to 45% of the engine cooling was from the
> oil. Am I correct in that theory? Or was it some hype from Quaker State?
>
> Comments?
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97394 is a reply to message #97390] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 21:13 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Ok. Sounds like an interesting project. Next trip to the men's mall I just
may have to hunt for an assortment of nozzles. I'm partial to the Mercedes
Benz nozzles used on the head lights. Not too many MB's make it to the
mall. I mean the men's mall!!
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> Tom,
>
> At this stage, I'm just planning a little experiment: a windshield washer
> nozzle or two aimed at the A/C condenser. I'm expecting most of the water
> to pass through onto the radiator, and probably some will find its way down
> to the external engine oil and transmission cooler I have mounted below the
> condenser. Maybe I can devise a flexible mount for the nozzles (perhaps a
> vertical mounting bar) so it will be easy to try different patterns. But,
> I'm just planning to tinker with it -- not get into a planned, controlled
> test program like some I've attempted. :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Tom Eckert <gmcrv1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > I'm not sure of exactly how you are going to atomize the condensate water
> > for spraying into the radiator, but as a thought, would it be equally
> > effective to spray the oil cooler? Smaller area to spray etc. I thought
> I
> > read somewhere years ago that 35 to 45% of the engine cooling was from
> the
> > oil. Am I correct in that theory? Or was it some hype from Quaker
> State?
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97396 is a reply to message #97394] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 21:26 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I figure those with the little "eyeballs" will be easiest to adjust: Just
stick a pin in the hole in the little ball and aim it where the spray's to
go. They don't generally squirt a nice fan though.
Ken H.
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Tom Eckert <gmcrv1@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Ok. Sounds like an interesting project. Next trip to the men's mall I
> just
> may have to hunt for an assortment of nozzles. I'm partial to the Mercedes
> Benz nozzles used on the head lights. Not too many MB's make it to the
> mall. I mean the men's mall!!
>
>
_______________________________________________
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http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97398 is a reply to message #97076] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 21:52 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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reminds me of this 18" by 12" burlap bag my dad used to hang in front of the radiator on his Olds 98 on road trips. He was told it blocked airflow, so he hung it over one side I've got a picture of that somewhere...
Just a thought, having water spraying on the radiator all day long will really hasten the rusting and corrosion of the pulleys, belts, water pump, etc. plus not to mention, all that steam/condensate rotting the wood floor above and behind the engine. Just food for thought. 
Spraying it on an oil cooler with some sort of shield that diverts the water away from the engine compartment, now that makes sense...
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97403 is a reply to message #97398] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 22:14 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Chr$ wrote on Thu, 26 August 2010 20:52 |
reminds me of this 18" by 12" burlap bag my dad used to hang in front of the radiator on his Olds 98 on road trips. He was told it blocked airflow, so he hung it over one side I've got a picture of that somewhere...
Just a thought, having water spraying on the radiator all day long will really hasten the rusting and corrosion of the pulleys, belts, water pump, etc. plus not to mention, all that steam/condensate rotting the wood floor above and behind the engine. Just food for thought.
Spraying it on an oil cooler with some sort of shield that diverts the water away from the engine compartment, now that makes sense...
|
I recall when JC whitney used to sell those evaporators that hung outside one of the windows. As you mention, this whole idea depends on the quality of water that is used. If it is AC condensation, then it is probably pretty good stuff.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97406 is a reply to message #97398] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 22:16 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Chris,
If you've been following this, do you know approximately what percentage of
engine cooling is done by the oil?
I do like the idea of wetting down the Oil Cooler. Never thought how fast
things may rust from the mist coming off the radiator.
Tom Eckert N2VWN
72 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Chris Choffat <cchoffataz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> reminds me of this 18" by 12" burlap bag my dad used to hang in front of
> the radiator on his Olds 98 on road trips. He was told it blocked airflow,
> so he hung it over one side I've got a picture of that somewhere...
>
> Just a thought, having water spraying on the radiator all day long will
> really hasten the rusting and corrosion of the pulleys, belts, water pump,
> etc. plus not to mention, all that steam/condensate rotting the wood floor
> above and behind the engine. Just food for thought. :roll:
>
> Spraying it on an oil cooler with some sort of shield that diverts the
> water away from the engine compartment, now that makes sense...
> --
> -Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
> 77 Ex-Kingsley 455, Power Drive, 3:21 FD, Quadra bag. The Engineer's
> Motorhome
> Scottsdale, AZ
>
> Photosite: Chrisc "It has Begun"
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97407 is a reply to message #97076] |
Thu, 26 August 2010 22:25 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I don't know, but I would think that the oil does a good job of keeping the bottom end and valve train cool where the coolant does its job on the cylinder walls.
I'm sure there is a white paper out there somewhere.
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97417 is a reply to message #97407] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 00:52 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Years ago a friend of mine had a 6 cylinder 1958 Ford Station wagon and he
pulled a 26 foot tandem axle travel with it all over the USA. He bought a 5
gallon sprayer made for three wheelers to spray weeds that had a 12 volt
pump that he hooked up with a toggle switch. He ran a vinyl tube from the
tank which he kept in the spare tire space, to a home made manifold with
about 4 sprayer nozzles screwed into it that pointed to the top of the
radiator core. When his temp gage started to climb, he would turn on the
pump for a few seconds and he claimed it cooled it right down. His was a
manual trans w/overdrive and no AC so it didn't have the thermal load of a
GMC. As I recall he experimented with alcohol/water blends and finally
settled on plain water. The blends cooled better but when sprayed on hot
electrical parts like alternators & such speeded up corrosion. He said that
he pulled 10000 foot Monarch pass in the Rockies in 2nd gear overdrive
without stopping, so must have been fairly effective. He was a life long
Ford 6 guy for what it's worth.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Royale 403
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Chris Choffat <cchoffataz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I don't know, but I would think that the oil does a good job of keeping the
> bottom end and valve train cool where the coolant does its job on the
> cylinder walls.
>
> I'm sure there is a white paper out there somewhere.
> --
> -Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
> 77 Ex-Kingsley 455, Power Drive, 3:21 FD, Quadra bag. The Engineer's
> Motorhome
> Scottsdale, AZ
>
> Photosite: Chrisc "It has Begun"
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97438 is a reply to message #97417] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 07:31 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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I still think the oil cooler is the area to concentrate on. I have some
.060 & . 040 aluminum to fabricate the shield. Next time I'm in that area
I'll see if it's feasible. Coming from NJ, I know that rust is not your
friend. It would be nice to install dual oil temp gauges to see if the
water makes a big difference when switched on. I don't suppose enough
volume and pressure could be developed to supply an in ground sprinkler head
focused on the oil cooler. But there is a 40 gallon water supply that could
be tapped as needed.
Still thinking...
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:52 AM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> Years ago a friend of mine had a 6 cylinder 1958 Ford Station wagon and he
> pulled a 26 foot tandem axle travel with it all over the USA. He bought a 5
> gallon sprayer made for three wheelers to spray weeds that had a 12 volt
> pump that he hooked up with a toggle switch. He ran a vinyl tube from the
> tank which he kept in the spare tire space, to a home made manifold with
> about 4 sprayer nozzles screwed into it that pointed to the top of the
> radiator core. When his temp gage started to climb, he would turn on the
> pump for a few seconds and he claimed it cooled it right down. His was a
> manual trans w/overdrive and no AC so it didn't have the thermal load of a
> GMC. As I recall he experimented with alcohol/water blends and finally
> settled on plain water. The blends cooled better but when sprayed on hot
> electrical parts like alternators & such speeded up corrosion. He said that
> he pulled 10000 foot Monarch pass in the Rockies in 2nd gear overdrive
> without stopping, so must have been fairly effective. He was a life long
> Ford 6 guy for what it's worth.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 Royale 403
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Chris Choffat <cchoffataz@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I don't know, but I would think that the oil does a good job of keeping
> the
> > bottom end and valve train cool where the coolant does its job on the
> > cylinder walls.
> >
> > I'm sure there is a white paper out there somewhere.
> > --
> > -Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
> > 77 Ex-Kingsley 455, Power Drive, 3:21 FD, Quadra bag. The Engineer's
> > Motorhome
> > Scottsdale, AZ
> >
> > Photosite: Chrisc "It has Begun"
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97550 is a reply to message #97360] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 18:47 |
 |
mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 26 August 2010 15:42 |
... But I did
yesterday take the first step toward a radiator sprayer: When I
built the new HVAC, I included a pretty effective condensate
drain system. ...
<< snipped >>
I've been amazed by how quickly that bottle begins to overflow
-- 30 minutes or less, typically. ...
|
A couple of thoughts:
Keep in mind I am not one of those who have been "schooled" on most of this. (There ARE many on the net who have been, so they might straighten me out...)
1. The amount condensate collected would depend on the humidity. The higher, the more condensate. The effectiveness of the condensate to cool anything would also depend on the humidity... the higher the humidity, the less effective the cooling.
2. The concerns about rust are valid but if I remember correctly, pure water doesn't promote corrosion. It is what is carried by the water that promotes the corrosion. SO... if the water is clean (condensate should be) and the motor and other parts are also clean (not on anything I own  ) it shouldn't promote corrosion.
Interesting project/idea. Let us know how it works out. I LIKE learning from other peoples experiences!
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97554 is a reply to message #97550] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 19:22 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
I agree with your statements. No question the optimum conditions for
condensation are also those in which evaporative cooling will be least
effective. But, the two processes are really linked only by the gasoline
consumed in producing the condensation. Since the A/C WILL be running for
creature comfort, capturing the condensate and reusing it is a "freebie".
Since the radiator temperature is so far above the dew point, I expect the
cooling effect to be pretty significant, even here in our common 90%
humidity. If I travel in more arid climates, the condensation rate may not
keep up with the cooling water requirement. If so, I'll probably just buy
some Walmart distilled water. If I need more than occasional use (hard
climbs), I'll be looking for something besides a sprinkler system.
Hopefully, I'll be able to tune the spray rate so that there will be little
un-evaporated water. I don't expect any significant rust/rot problem.
Driving through one thunderstorm will put more water through the engine
compartment than I'm likely to spray in 10 years.
If I didn't have the free distilled water source, I wouldn't even consider
this project because of the mineralization problems I'd anticipate with most
tap water.
Ken H.
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 26 August 2010 15:42
> > ... But I did
> > yesterday take the first step toward a radiator sprayer: When I
> > built the new HVAC, I included a pretty effective condensate
> > drain system. ...
> > << snipped >>
> > I've been amazed by how quickly that bottle begins to overflow
> > -- 30 minutes or less, typically. ...
>
>
> A couple of thoughts:
>
> Keep in mind I am not one of those who have been "schooled" on most of
> this. (There ARE many on the net who have been, so they might straighten me
> out...)
>
> 1. The amount condensate collected would depend on the humidity. The
> higher, the more condensate. The effectiveness of the condensate to cool
> anything would also depend on the humidity... the higher the humidity, the
> less effective the cooling.
>
> 2. The concerns about rust are valid but if I remember correctly, pure
> water doesn't promote corrosion. It is what is carried by the water that
> promotes the corrosion. SO... if the water is clean (condensate should be)
> and the motor and other parts are also clean (not on anything I own :? )
> it shouldn't promote corrosion.
>
> Interesting project/idea. Let us know how it works out. I LIKE learning
> from other peoples experiences!
> --
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97567 is a reply to message #97554] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 20:21 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
For what it's worth just about all aircraft air conditioning systems recover
the water removed by the water separator from the air cooled by the heat
exchanger / air cycling machine.
The water is sprayed on the heat exchanger ram air face.
Unfortunately I can't remember how much cooling it provides.
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:23 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection
Mike,
I agree with your statements. No question the optimum conditions for
condensation are also those in which evaporative cooling will be least
effective. But, the two processes are really linked only by the gasoline
consumed in producing the condensation. Since the A/C WILL be running for
creature comfort, capturing the condensate and reusing it is a "freebie".
Since the radiator temperature is so far above the dew point, I expect the
cooling effect to be pretty significant, even here in our common 90%
humidity. If I travel in more arid climates, the condensation rate may not
keep up with the cooling water requirement. If so, I'll probably just buy
some Walmart distilled water. If I need more than occasional use (hard
climbs), I'll be looking for something besides a sprinkler system.
Hopefully, I'll be able to tune the spray rate so that there will be little
un-evaporated water. I don't expect any significant rust/rot problem.
Driving through one thunderstorm will put more water through the engine
compartment than I'm likely to spray in 10 years.
If I didn't have the free distilled water source, I wouldn't even consider
this project because of the mineralization problems I'd anticipate with most
tap water.
Ken H.
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GMCnet mailing list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] H20 Injection [message #97585 is a reply to message #97076] |
Fri, 27 August 2010 23:36 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""There's been some discussion here of water injection for the GMC. Here's a
pretty good article on the subject;
""
Rust will never be your problem but calcium may. Hopefully if you can stay only with AC condensate, neither will be an issue.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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