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| What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93712] |
Wed, 28 July 2010 20:44  |
Dr. Detroit
Messages: 158
Registered: April 2010
Location: Novi, MI.
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Considering that leisure time is something that is in short supply for me I'm contemplating pulling the Onan out of the coach and replacing it with something else. I'm considering doing this because I don't want to invest a ton of time and cash into getting it and keeping it running.
Who's installed what in their 23 Footer?
Ken
1973 GMC 23'
All Birch and Maple Interior Cabinetry. TZE033V100221
"The Honeycomb Hideout"
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93757 is a reply to message #93712] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 06:31  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Ken,
About 3-4 years ago, I finally got tired of fooling with the 4kW Onan in my
23'. While there was never anything on it that I couldn't easily repair,
there always seemed to be something that I NEEDED to repair -- and always
when I most needed to USE it, not play with it.
The only thing I could find to fit the compartment (which is slightly
smaller than the original) was the Generac 36G, a single cylinder DC
generator with a remotely mounted inverter to produce 120 vac 60 Hz,
regardless of the engine speed. A great idea and apparently well executed.
It fit the compartment well and even had control wiring which I could
connect directly to the Onan's.
Rick Denny, gullible soul that he can be, followed right behind me and also
installed one.
After about 75 hours (and warranty time), I burned up a resistor in the
inverter, perhaps by overloading it for too long (how one can do that is a
mystery). Using Rick's for reference, I replaced that component at
continued to use it, though overall performance was not quite up to par. It
finally failed completely at about 175 hours (IIRC). At about the same time
that Generac quit advertising the unit.
Rick has done quite a bit of work to provide better ventilation to his 36G
-- I never thought it necessary. His is still running, but he's not
entirely happy with it either.
Since I STILL could not find a generator capable of carrying 1 roof air + a
little additional load (minimum of 3.5 kW), I replaced the Generac with a
TroyBilt portable generator from Lowes. It's a now discontinued model with
electric start which produces 5 kW. When I've used it, which is very
little, it performs beautifully -- I can hardly tell from the engine sound
that the A/C is coming on or off. BUT, the installation was a considerable
design project, including developing a remote control system, devising all
of the mounting arrangements and exhaust heat shielding, plus developing a
suitable exhaust system (which does NOT have Forest Service certification).
And I still have not solved the problem of fuel supply -- going from a
gravity feed system to a pumped system is not nearly as simple as I'd
anticipated.
So, to make the long story short: No, I don't know of a generator to fit
the 23'. :-(
Oh yeah: Some have been able to install larger generators because they
could enlarge the compartment -- that was by no means feasible for me.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Ken Wolkens <kwolkens@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Considering that leisure time is something that is in short supply for me
> I'm contemplating pulling the Onan out of the coach and replacing it with
> something else. I'm considering doing this because I don't want to invest a
> ton of time and cash into getting it and keeping it running.
>
> Who's installed what in their 23 Footer?
>
> Ken
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93761 is a reply to message #93712] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 07:15 |
MIGUEL MENDEZ
Messages: 179
Registered: August 2004
Location: Montclair, California
Karma: 3
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WOW, thats one big ?, however, i always read about Ken and Rick and the wonderful times they have had with the early Generacs they installed, and i'm on there side, these small inverter units, at best gave power most of the time but, in talking to the polder guys at Generac, the main problem they had was these units being used with older roof A/C's needing alot of start up power.
This unit is no longer made, as with the honda ev line, i installed a few hondas, good units, but have one problem with them, and the support from honda was crap.
I started to install the newer version of the Generac line, i noticed alot of new Class C motor homes come with them so i figured i would try them out also.
everyone has thier own opinion, so here is mine, i have 58 Prime pact 50 g units installed, yes, even into 23 footers, they do fit, and 18 quite pact 40 g units but only into 26 foot units.
I have only had problems with 2 units, 1 50 and 0ne 40 g, the 50 g was the customers fault, he thoufgt it already came with oil in the crank, it would start but shut down, he called several times and i gave him all the time on the phone as i do with anyone calling me, and i asked, are you sure it have enough oil, he insisted that it did, i told him, it sound as if the low oil switch may be at fault, i then told him to contact Generac to set up a repair order in his state, but what he did id by pass the switch, and ran it until it locked up, he call and told me that he guessed that after all, it did not have enough oil, after talking to Generac, they sent him a new unit.
the 40 g, a small oil leak inside on the oil cooler.
But thats it. and at half the cost of the hondas and the newer onans, you can't go wrong.
Made in America, wow, what a concept, something still made here, so I support them and so far, a very good product.
So , whatever rick and kens problems may have been, look into the Generacs of today, they fit, work and have a very good warranty, 3 years parts and labor, no hour limit and the 50 g comes with a lifetime belt warranty.
Anyone interested in opne, here is the web site i send customers to, norwalpowersystems.com .
just my thoughts , and thank you for your time.
oh, BTW, yes, the 50g does power 2 roof airs, but you need to remember, if your roof airs are 35 years old, replace them, they are taking way to much power to start up and run, everything has a limit, even the hondas had problems starting up 2 roof airs pulling more than 25 amps to start !!!!
Miguel
1978 Royale Pain in the %$@, side bath w/ a 403 that i love.
GMC name : The other woman
http://www.mgmgmc.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93774 is a reply to message #93761] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 08:09 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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A minor point, and moot at this point: My Generac 36G was never called upon
to run anything heavier than a circa '99 Dometic 13,500 btu low profile. I
don't doubt that the older units with their high starting load were a
problem for that generator -- but mine should not have been.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:15 AM, MIGUEL MENDEZ <mokingo6@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> WOW, thats one big ?, however, i always read about Ken and Rick and the
> wonderful times they have had with the early Generacs they installed, and
> i'm on there side, these small inverter units, at best gave power most of
> the time but, in talking to the polder guys at Generac, the main problem
> they had was these units being used with older roof A/C's needing alot of
> start up power.
> ...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93794 is a reply to message #93712] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 10:14 |
Dr. Detroit
Messages: 158
Registered: April 2010
Location: Novi, MI.
Karma: 0
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Ken H,
Do you have a link to photo's of your install of the Troybilt?
As far as fab ability goes, I spent 15 years doing that type of stuff for the auto industry so I'm not skeered.
Regarding use, we are not boondockers so I see the Gen being used infrequently, but when I go to use it, I want it to run and work. I have a 5500 watt unit (no name) I bought from home depot eleven years ago. It sits for months and starts and works every time. Never a problem. From what I see on the web the Onan is fickle and a PIA so I don't even want to deal with it.
On the most simple level, I've even considered daisy chaining 2 Honda's together however having them able to run in the compartment with the door closed would be an issue.
Ken W.
1973 GMC 23'
All Birch and Maple Interior Cabinetry. TZE033V100221
"The Honeycomb Hideout"
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| Re: What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93806 is a reply to message #93761] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 11:03 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""everyone has thier own opinion, so here is mine, i have 58 Prime pact 50 g units installed, yes, even into 23 footers, they do fit, and 18 quite pact 40 g units but only into 26 foot units.
I have only had problems with 2 units, 1 50 and 0ne 40 g, the 50 g was the customers fault, he thoufgt it already came with oil in the crank, it would start but shut down, he called several times and i gave him all the time on the phone as i do with anyone calling me, and i asked, are you sure it have enough oil, he insisted that it did, i told him, it sound as if the low oil switch may be at fault, i then told him to contact Generac to set up a repair order in his state, but what he did id by pass the switch, and ran it until it locked up, he call and told me that he guessed that after all, it did not have enough oil, after talking to Generac, they sent him a new unit.
""
Thanks for the feedback--I have been looking at those and they are reasonably priced You also answered my question regarding 2 roof airs. How are they for noise and vibration--that is one of my biggest complaints about my old Onan. Also on 26 footers, is there still room for the batteries or do they need to be relocated?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93809 is a reply to message #93797] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 11:04 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
> All you have been reading is from those few that have had a problem,
> usually because they don't know how to tune then.
>
>
Emery, I'm glad you said "usually".
I replaced my Onan because every time I ran it, it covered the bad half of
the coach with a film of oil. It wasn't the usual oil sources, either, and a
full rebuild would have been necessary. The problem with Onans is that you
don't know how much they have been neglected by previous owners. Mine had
been run without an air cleaner--none was installed when I got it--for who
knows how long.
And relay logic on a board that does nothing but vibrate and soak up heat?
Hmmm. Seems like I was always having to fiddle with that control board.
I believe Miguel that current Generacs can be a useful choice. But the
current models are like all RV generators--low and long. They will not fit
in a stock 230 generator compartment, and making them fit requires surgery.
And it has to be twisted into place unless you mount it sideways, which some
have done with both Generacs and Hondas. The Onan Camp Power 2800 will
probably fit, but it has a poor reputation and 2800 watts just ain't enough.
My 36G is still running. At 80 hours, the hall-effect speed sensor failed.
Replacing that sensor required opening up all the sheet metal on the top,
removing the generator head (requires a puller), and removing the control
boards. Good thing I designed my compartment with a removable top, though I
have to disassemble a lot of stuff to get to it.
The engine still often dies a second or two after startup, and it often
requires several attempts to keep it running. But once running, it stays
running (or it now does--I had to route the fuel line to avoid the hot air
flow out the bottom). I use a Carrier low-profile roof air that is
definitely a low current drain--I can run it on a 15-amp breaker with no
issue.
An automatic transfer switch with delay is a good idea. Mine starts more
happily without even a tiny load. The transfer switch doesn't engage the
generator until it has been running about 30 seconds, and by that time, the
Generac is fully stable.
Part of the issue that Ken and I have had is that we bought the generator
from an Internet supplier that has provided no service after the sale, and
we had to try and get help from Generac directly (and unsuccessfully). We
did find the actual service manual, however, and that helped.
I have done LOTS to improve air flow, and to keep the hot exhaust air from
recirculating back to the intake. I have exceeded considerably all of
Generac's install recommendations for air supply.
Mine only has about 90 hours on it at this point.
Oh--one other issue--the inverter on the Generac sprays RF like nobody's
business. I cannot use it when I'm playing radio without all my ham buddies
coming down on me.
Rick "still using the Generac but unwilling to recommend it" Denney
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93819 is a reply to message #93794] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 11:44 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Here's the link:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5330
<http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5330>The slides shown
were only rated for 100#, about what the generator weighs, and gave trouble
even before I completed the installation. I later recovered the heavy duty
slides from the 4kW my son still uses for an emergency generator. They
handle this 1/3 load very well. I've done considerable cleanup & redesign
since those photos, including the addition of protective screens on the aux
fan and the engine fan, a resonator behind the muffler, and some additional
heat shielding around the exhaust pipe.
I still haven't solved, hopefully from lack of trying, the problem of
supplying fuel at sufficiently low pressure, and in adequate volume. Even
with a 1-10 psi adjustable regulator, I can't get the pressure low enough to
prevent flooding. The most effective regulator thus far has been a pair of
4" lock-grips on the rubber supply hose, but I don't trust that to not
starve the engine at high load.
Nor have I done anything about acquiring or developing a low oil pressure
shutoff. As new as it is, with the reputation this particular unit enjoys
among contractors and emergency users, I can probably check the level
frequently enough to save it from self destructing while I consider the
automatic options.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Ken Wolkens <kwolkens@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken H,
>
> Do you have a link to photo's of your install of the Troybilt?
> ...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93823 is a reply to message #93819] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 12:05 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I still haven't solved, hopefully from lack of trying, the problem of
supplying fuel at sufficiently low pressure, and in adequate volume. Even
with a 1-10 psi adjustable regulator, I can't get the pressure low enough to
prevent flooding. The most effective regulator thus far has been a pair of
4" lock-grips on the rubber supply hose, but I don't trust that to not
starve the engine at high load.
""
Ken, I routinely run a small 2K kipor to recharge my batteries while boondocking since it is much quieter and uses very little fuel. However, I rigged up a small plastic marine tank directly to a modified gas cap on the Kipor. As the Kipor uses fuel, it sucks an equal amount out of the spare tank sitting at ground level. I'm wondering if that may work for you and suck it right out of the GMC fuel tank fitting with no additional pump.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93825 is a reply to message #93819] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 12:09 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> I still haven't solved, hopefully from lack of trying, the problem of
> supplying fuel at sufficiently low pressure, and in adequate volume. Even
> with a 1-10 psi adjustable regulator, I can't get the pressure low enough
> to
> prevent flooding. The most effective regulator thus far has been a pair of
> 4" lock-grips on the rubber supply hose, but I don't trust that to not
> starve the engine at high load.
>
How about a half-gallon ventilated surge tank with a float valve, from which
you can gravity-feed the generator?
Rick "figuring he'll be following down this garden path eventually, too"
Denney
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93830 is a reply to message #93825] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 12:31 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I've thought of that, but don't have a ladder to get on the roof nor a pod
to store it in anyway. And all other locations above the generator are
inside the coach. :-(
Not really. The storage compartment right above the generator is a
possibility, as is the nearby refrigerator compartment -- IF I could figure
a way to be sure no gas could escape into the compartment - EVER.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Richard Denney <rwdenney@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net
> >wrote:
>
> > I still haven't solved, hopefully from lack of trying, the problem of
> > supplying fuel at sufficiently low pressure, and in adequate volume.
> Even
> > with a 1-10 psi adjustable regulator, I can't get the pressure low enough
> > to
> > prevent flooding. The most effective regulator thus far has been a pair
> of
> > 4" lock-grips on the rubber supply hose, but I don't trust that to not
> > starve the engine at high load.
> >
>
> How about a half-gallon ventilated surge tank with a float valve, from
> which
> you can gravity-feed the generator?
>
> Rick "figuring he'll be following down this garden path eventually, too"
> Denney
> ___________________
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93834 is a reply to message #93830] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 12:49 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:31 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> I've thought of that, but don't have a ladder to get on the roof nor a pod
> to store it in anyway. And all other locations above the generator are
> inside the coach. :-(
>
Not based on your pictures. You could rivet a plate onto the air-cleaner
cover, extending above the air cleaner by a couple of inches, and put a
plastic one-pint fuel tank on that. It would be above the carb. Then put a
float switch (like they use for brake fluid, perhaps), and control a
low-pressure pump with that switch, perhaps through a damping circuit to
prevent chatter. At a usual fuel rate of maybe 3/4 gallon/hour at full load,
an 8-ounce tank would only empty every five minutes. A second float switch a
little higher could act as a safety.
Rick "thinking this is an easier problem to solve than vapor lock" Denney
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93835 is a reply to message #93825] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 12:51 |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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| Richard Denney wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 10:09 |
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> I still haven't solved, hopefully from lack of trying, the problem of
> supplying fuel at sufficiently low pressure, and in adequate volume. Even
> with a 1-10 psi adjustable regulator, I can't get the pressure low enough
> to
> prevent flooding. The most effective regulator thus far has been a pair of
> 4" lock-grips on the rubber supply hose, but I don't trust that to not
> starve the engine at high load.
>
How about a half-gallon ventilated surge tank with a float valve, from which
you can gravity-feed the generator?
Rick "figuring he'll be following down this garden path eventually, too"
Denney
|
You might look at the way the Honda inverter generator fuel tanks systems can be extended. Don't know if it will help with your specific gen set.
http://www.braingarage.com/Dons/Travels/articles/generators/fuel%20tank.html
http://www.vmsales.com/New_Images___Text_Layout_1.html
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93838 is a reply to message #93797] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 13:11 |
 |
mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| emerystora wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 08:29 |
Probably because those of us that have great working Onans just don't
post our praises on the net.
All you have been reading is from those few that have had a problem,
usually because they don't know how to tune then.
The "vocal minority"?
|
I suspect you are on to something.
When they work, generators do not get much attention. I am sure there are onan's just chugging along with very little problems. ...just not mine.
The 4k Onan is probably the best generator that will fit in the generator compartment of a 23 foot coach. ... unless the compartment has been modified. If you have a 26, they are a few other options.
The old style Onans will put out more than the rated power and the motor is just about bullet proof. Keep in mind: They are OLD technology... not the most efficient generators and HEAVY.
The control boards have aged and have been worked on by people who do not understand its operation. It could be redesigned but there probably isn't enough money in it.
The points are VERY poorly designed. (I have been cussing at the Onan designers for quite some time.) Even the Onan ($$$) electronic replacements are not very well designed. I finally bit the bullet and bought a Pertronix 1181 Ignitor. ($62 from Amazon.) I am starting the installation today. I am still looking for a cheaper one for my other coach.
The old Onan might need to be taken apart and "regasketed" to keep the oil where it belongs. They have been setting there drying out for how long? I haven't done this... yet. It is an air cooled flat head engine -- how hard can it be?
I wonder if there is any money in rebuilding them on an exchange basis. Swap them out at rallies, allowing someone to deduct rally expenses as a business expense. Maybe something to do when I retire -- if that ever happens.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] What Generators (other than Onan) have folks installed? [message #93861 is a reply to message #93838] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 15:37 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Genset Jerry in Tucson basically does that already. He has been known to take trade-ins as well. He enjoys tinkering with them and has some improvements too. My 6K onan is one of his, and runs like a top, albiet a bit rich. I plan to look into that when it gets cooler outside...
| mike miller wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 11:11 |
I wonder if there is any money in rebuilding them on an exchange basis. Swap them out at rallies, allowing someone to deduct rally expenses as a business expense. Maybe something to do when I retire -- if that ever happens.
|
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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