Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator (Changed the compressor and refrigerant with mixed results)
| Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93174] |
Sun, 25 July 2010 12:19  |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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For a long time I have been wanting to try R 12a (Duracool) in one of the original Norcold electric compressor refrigerators to see if it would reduce the power consumption to any significant degree.
I was given a much more recent Norcold with a swing motor compressor, which had failed. It is a model made in the early 2000's and used R 134a as the refrigerant. All of the GMC supplied Norcold units from the '70's used R12. A complete search of the net found no sources for purchase of the compressor, apparently it is a OEM item only. So, the refrigerator was totally useless.
I then found a $1 water cooler which also used R134a at a Goodwill store. It ran and cooled just fine. I decided to try to put the small 120 volt compressor from the water cooler in the Norcold refrigerator, and charge it with R 12a (Duracool). The idea here was to see if I could build an electric refrigerator which used a 120 volt compressor which I could run on an inverter when necessary, and have the power consumption less than the original Norcold swing motor compressors. I had previously determined that anything less than 30 watts per hour would be my goal. (see: http://www.bdub.net/Refrigeration_in_the_GMC.pdf)
I plumbed it up, evacuated it, charged it with Duracool and set the suction pressure about 0 psi, as I wanted low temps of around zero degrees F in the freezer compartment. This, you should note, is a lower suction pressure than we use in the GMC dash AC unit as I want to have colder temps in the evaporator of the refrigerator.
Results have been mixed. The combination did work, and the freezer and main box came to reasonable temps. However the compressor had to run full time to do that, with a power consumption of just over 50 watts per hour. That did not meet my goal at all. I think the compressor is just too small for the job. It was meant to cool a small amount of water in a water cooler, not a larger refrigerator box with freezer. So, it just never shuts off. I have no idea if the Duracool helped with the power consumption, but it does work in the 134a system.
I am now on the lookout for a somewhat larger compressor to try out, one that may take 70 or 80 watts to run, but which would cycle on and off to keep the temp right and have an average consumption of less than my goal of 30 watts per hour.
It is a fun experiment, and I will keep you informed if I make any progress.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93236 is a reply to message #93201] |
Sun, 25 July 2010 22:06  |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Matt:
If you can silver solder a charging valve in the low side rather then the piercing valve it would be less apt to leak. Those piercing valves have a tendency to leak especially over time. In my day I have replaced a lot of them.
Roy
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93257 is a reply to message #93218] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 06:39 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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For clarification.
Can someone clarify the different categories of refrigerants for those of us
that are so cool?
And refers vs. dash air.
IE:
R-12
R-12a
Duracool
HC-12
We all know that R-12 is history. Is R-12a a replacement and still legal
etc
I want to be cool like the rest of you GMCers
Thanks,
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 HOT Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> .
>
> >
> > As soon as my HC-12 shows up, I am going to put a piercing valve on the
> > charge tap, then charge it very slowly until the coils feel right and the
> > box gets cold.
> >
>
>
> they have an HC-22 for refers, different formulation
> gene
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93272 is a reply to message #93257] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 08:39 |
tbpartridge
Messages: 26
Registered: October 2004
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Tom,
About 5 yrs ago Jim Bounds charged our system with Freeze 12. I've been
happy with it but have not talked to anyone else that is using it. Is there
any other users out there?
Tony Partridge
Logansport, IN
78 PB powered by 454 TBI DynoSource
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Eckert" <gmcrv1@gmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator
For clarification.
Can someone clarify the different categories of refrigerants for those of us
that are so cool?
And refers vs. dash air.
IE:
R-12
R-12a
Duracool
HC-12
We all know that R-12 is history. Is R-12a a replacement and still legal
etc
I want to be cool like the rest of you GMCers
Thanks,
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 HOT Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher
<mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> .
>
> >
> > As soon as my HC-12 shows up, I am going to put a piercing valve on the
> > charge tap, then charge it very slowly until the coils feel right and
> > the
> > box gets cold.
> >
>
>
> they have an HC-22 for refers, different formulation
> gene
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93279 is a reply to message #93258] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 11:19 |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| mcolie wrote on Mon, 26 July 2010 04:58 |
| roy1 wrote on Sun, 25 July 2010 23:06 |
Matt:
If you can silver solder a charging valve in the low side rather then the piercing valve it would be less apt to leak.
Roy
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Roy,
The problem is my confidence in the leak repair. The electric feed-through has twice had connection problems that caused heat issues. This is where I believe the leak to be as I can see some irregularities in the surface. I got out an access fitting and the Sil-Phos and was about to put it on the end of the charging stem, but that is against the case and I would be better off to loose the compressor and make more room to work.
But as I have only marginal confidence that a recharge will make it go, I figured that I would try the piercing valve first because it is simple. It is likely to be a poor application because the condition of the charging stem is not great. But, the cash-out-of-pocket for the experiment will be about 15$ - I'll do that.
Matt
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Roy, Matt: I also used a piercing valve to charge my system as well as standard compression fittings (say it is not so) to adapt the new compressor to the old system. Reason: I have never silver soldered and don't know how to do it, I had the piercing valve, and it was a test of concept project.
Matt: I have seen the specs for the charge on the larger Norcold that is most common size, but do not know where anymore. I think it is about one oz of R12. See if you can find the Norcold repair manual in Bdub's site, that may be a source of information. I charged mine by pressure and intuition but it seemed to work right in the end, other than the compressor size.
Matt: I wonder if some high temp epoxy might be used around the power feed through to seal it, if that is the leak source?
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93286 is a reply to message #93257] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 11:44 |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| gmcrv1 wrote on Mon, 26 July 2010 04:39 |
For clarification.
Can someone clarify the different categories of refrigerants for those of us
that are so cool?
And refers vs. dash air.
IE:
R-12
R-12a
Duracool
HC-12
We all know that R-12 is history. Is R-12a a replacement and still legal
etc. I want to be cool like the rest of you GMCers
Thanks,
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 HOT Glacier
Oakland, TN
|
Tom: R12 was the standard refrigerant in Auto AC systems until about 1993 when the change over to R 134a was made for environmental reasons. It was also used in some household refrigerators, especially older ones, and was used in the original 12/120 volt Norcold swing motor compressor refrigerator supplied in GMC built coaches. It is no longer made or imported to t he US, the only supplies are recycled or NOS. It requires a permit to purchase.
R12a is the designation most common for propane based refrigerants such as Duracool. Most repair shops will not install it, or work on a system which has it installed for claimed liability reasons. It can be purchased fairly easily by an individual, for their own use, often over the net.
R 22 is the most common refrigerant which was used in refrigerators while R12 was made. It was also used extensively in home, window, and rooftop RV AC units until the mid 90's or somewhat later. It is, like R12, phased out now, and requires a license to purchase.
R134a was developed to do the job of R 12 in automotive refrigeration, and has widely replaced R 22 in home, window and RV rooftop units. It has also been extensively used in home refrigerators and cooling units made since the mid 90's. It can be purchased widely, including Wal Mart.
There are new R 4xx (4 hundreds numbers) that are now coming into use. Stay tuned.
I make no political or environmental comments on any of these. The world changes, we need to keep up with information, as you requested. My comments are from memory, so specific details may not be spot on.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93289 is a reply to message #93272] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 12:11 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
It is really R134A that is compatible with most compressor oils. Fancy name.
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Barb & Tony <tbpartridge@comcast.net> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> About 5 yrs ago Jim Bounds charged our system with Freeze 12. I've been
> happy with it but have not talked to anyone else that is using it. Is there
> any other users out there?
>
>
> Tony Partridge
> Logansport, IN
> 78 PB powered by 454 TBI DynoSource
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Eckert" <gmcrv1@gmail.com>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator
>
>
> For clarification.
>
> Can someone clarify the different categories of refrigerants for those of us
> that are so cool?
> And refers vs. dash air.
>
> IE:
>
> R-12
> R-12a
> Duracool
> HC-12
>
> We all know that R-12 is history. Is R-12a a replacement and still legal
> etc
>
> I want to be cool like the rest of you GMCers
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Eckert N2VWN
> 73 HOT Glacier
> Oakland, TN
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher
> <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> .
>>
>> >
>> > As soon as my HC-12 shows up, I am going to put a piercing valve on the
>> > charge tap, then charge it very slowly until the coils feel right and
>> > the
>> > box gets cold.
>> >
>>
>>
>> they have an HC-22 for refers, different formulation
>> gene
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>> -------
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>> Alternator Protection Cable
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93318 is a reply to message #93289] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 15:04 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Thanks to all.
I had a 1994 Ranger that was converted to R134a worked well. The conversion
included a new dryer.
I thought my GMC had a small leak, but it turns out one of the hoses under
the left side hatch is cut about 3/4 of the way through. I guess there are
no extra large molecule refrigerants that will seal that leak.
So, my assumption is to replace the hose, evacuate whatever is in there and
recharge with Duracool. This coach has not been used for some time - so
I'll also assume the only thing left in the system is moisture, old oil and
hopefully not - mud dabbers. Best research I have found on the mud dabbers
is that they infiltrate the A/C components in the summer and then move to
the heating system in the winter. At least that's what I have found.
Thanks Again to all that replied.
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TN
On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
> Tom,
> It is really R134A that is compatible with most compressor oils. Fancy
> name.
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:39 AM, Barb & Tony <tbpartridge@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> > About 5 yrs ago Jim Bounds charged our system with Freeze 12. I've been
> > happy with it but have not talked to anyone else that is using it. Is
> there
> > any other users out there?
> >
> >
> > Tony Partridge
> > Logansport, IN
> > 78 PB powered by 454 TBI DynoSource
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Eckert" <gmcrv1@gmail.com>
> > To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 7:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator
> >
> >
> > For clarification.
> >
> > Can someone clarify the different categories of refrigerants for those of
> us
> > that are so cool?
> > And refers vs. dash air.
> >
> > IE:
> >
> > R-12
> > R-12a
> > Duracool
> > HC-12
> >
> > We all know that R-12 is history. Is R-12a a replacement and still legal
> > etc
> >
> > I want to be cool like the rest of you GMCers
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tom Eckert N2VWN
> > 73 HOT Glacier
> > Oakland, TN
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher
> > <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> .
> >>
> >> >
> >> > As soon as my HC-12 shows up, I am going to put a piercing valve on
> the
> >> > charge tap, then charge it very slowly until the coils feel right and
> >> > the
> >> > box gets cold.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> they have an HC-22 for refers, different formulation
> >> gene
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> >> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> >> -------
> >> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> >> Alternator Protection Cable
> >> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> List Information and Subscription Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Duracool in the original Norcold refrigerator [message #93319 is a reply to message #93318] |
Mon, 26 July 2010 15:17 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""Best research I have found on the mud dabbers
is that they infiltrate the A/C components in the summer and then move to
the heating system in the winter. At least that's what I have found.
Thanks Again to all that replied.
Tom Eckert N2VWN
""
They're no dummies!!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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