Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture
| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #89931] |
Fri, 25 June 2010 20:52  |
kenneth hugelier
Messages: 89
Registered: August 2008
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Hey Ken C.,
Emory's answer may have been a bit heavy duty for us but I think it worked. You asked for a definitive answer to a question that has none.
Emory does not need people like me to back him up, but about a year ago he backed some questionable repairs I did to my coach furnace. He didn't need to. I was new, he was helping. I am returning the favor. I never met him, but I hope to. We all would like to help, (well, most of us).
Oh, my furnace works great, thanks for asking.
ken hugelier 77 PB Det. Mich.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #89979 is a reply to message #89970] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 08:24  |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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Slightly off topic, but I mentioned that during my last trip in AZ, I experienced what I thought was vapor lock for the first time with my electric pump on. Last night I discovered why--my electric pump is kaput. Even though it runs, it won't pump. Since I'm off for a 10 day trip in temps upto 110 +, I'm off to Napa this morning!!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #89980 is a reply to message #89979] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 08:50 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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I have one of those. It makes a screeching noise. A new one is in place that
works.
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:24 AM, Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Slightly off topic, but I mentioned that during my last trip in AZ, I
> experienced what I thought was vapor lock for the first time with my
> electric pump on. Last night I discovered why--my electric pump is kaput.
> Even though it runs, it won't pump. Since I'm off for a 10 day trip in temps
> upto 110 +, I'm off to Napa this morning!!
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #90005 is a reply to message #89970] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 14:49 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
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| Ken Coit wrote on Sat, 26 June 2010 07:36 |
Thanks. I have met Emery and he is a good guy and this is a good civil
group.
Overnight I was thinking about this group and I have to say that this is one
of the most civil. I must have just come from a political blog where
civility is the last thing on their minds.
If Emery is right and gasoline volatility really does vary as much as they
indicate, then that is a very different problem we are trying to solve and
we need to look at how to beat 100°F volatility all the way to the
carburetor or injector(s).
I should point out that my problem happened in West Virginia in February
between snow storms. The only thing that was hot was the engine and it
wasn't overheating.
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
_
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Ken,
Emery is correct. Gasoline is made up of a cut off the distillation column and has chains of several length of carbon atoms. Adding each carbon atom to the chain gives a higher boiling point so if you have hexane, heptane, octane, nonane, and decane in the mix you have the boiling point of each one and the mixture affects the gross boiling point. In fact if you wanted to separate them you could run it through a distillation column and have the individual chemical chains come out at different points of the column. The compounds I mentioned have from 6 to 10 carbons in their make up. Of course The additives in the gasoline will also affect the boiling point. The lower carbon chains will come out first in our gasoline lines and form gas bubbles which reduces the flow of gasoline and gives vapor lock.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #90006 is a reply to message #90005] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 15:01 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
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I agree that Emery is right. From the discussion here, I gather that some of
the resulting carbon chains will vaporize at 85°F, which starts the problem,
but surely isn't enough to vapor lock the coach as many wouldn't get out of
the driveway most of the year if that were the case.
I am proposing that we find out the parameters of the problem(s) and see if
there isn't an efficacious way to solve it. I know we can find expensive
ways, I have several in mind, and I know that just throwing stuff at the
symptoms is likely to catch the culprit, but wouldn't it be nice to
understand what fixed it?
Fred V. recently reported that he found his problem, the electric pump had
stopped pumping. So his setup might be a good one to copy if we are in a
hurry. Fred, what have you done to achieve vapor-free travel?
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #90016 is a reply to message #90006] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 17:12 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Jun 26, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Ken Coit wrote:
> I agree that Emery is right. From the discussion here, I gather that some of
> the resulting carbon chains will vaporize at 85°F, which starts the problem,
> but surely isn't enough to vapor lock the coach as many wouldn't get out of
> the driveway most of the year if that were the case.
>
> I am proposing that we find out the parameters of the problem(s) and see if
> there isn't an efficacious way to solve it. I know we can find expensive
> ways, I have several in mind, and I know that just throwing stuff at the
> symptoms is likely to catch the culprit, but wouldn't it be nice to
> understand what fixed it?
>
> Fred V. recently reported that he found his problem, the electric pump had
> stopped pumping. So his setup might be a good one to copy if we are in a
> hurry. Fred, what have you done to achieve vapor-free travel?
>
I am in the process of installing two in-tank fuel pumps. This was originally developed by Bill Bramlett and then Bob Musgrove gave a presentation at a GMC Classic rally about it.
I will be making a couple of small modifications when I do it. Since part of the vapor lock problem is that electric fuel pumps are not very good at sucking but are great at pushing, having the pumps in the tanks mean that they prime immediately, are kept cool by the gasoline they are immersed in and don't have to suck fuel into the pump through perhaps 4 or so feet of hot fuel line. They will also eliminate the fuel selector valve which has given some GMCers problems.
Although these are high pressure fuel injection pumps they likely could be used with a carb if one were to put a pressure reduction unit just prior to the fuel entering the carb. You would have to use a unit that has a return line for the excess fuel to return to the tanks. That would purge any vapour out of the line before getting to the carb.
I will be taking pictures and doing a writeup of what I do and will probably give a seminar at the next GMCMI convention. I will also make it available to GMCnetters.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #90029 is a reply to message #90016] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 18:55 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Emery,
When I was talking to Bill a couple of days ago he told me you were working
on that. I'm looking forward to your presentation. Since it's been 11
years since I changed my fuel lines, that chore is overdue; I'll probably
follow your lead while I'm at it.
Ken H.
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> ...I am in the process of installing two in-tank fuel pumps. This was
> originally developed by Bill Bramlett and then Bob Musgrove gave a
> presentation at a GMC Classic rally about it.
> ...
I will be taking pictures and doing a writeup of what I do and will probably
> give a seminar at the next GMCMI convention. I will also make it available
> to GMCnetters.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #90030 is a reply to message #90016] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 19:01 |
Don A
Messages: 895
Registered: October 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
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That sounds great Emory
Can you give us a hint, what pumps are you going to use?
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba
[IMG]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6109/G2.jpg[/IMG]
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #90042 is a reply to message #90030] |
Sat, 26 June 2010 19:24 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Jun 26, 2010, at 6:01 PM, Don Adams wrote:
>
>
>
> That sounds great Emery
>
> Can you give us a hint, what pumps are you going to use?
> --
> Don
> 67 Datsun 2000
> 78 Suzuki 400
Sure. The pumps that I have ordered are AirTex E3902 plus and AirTex AIX FS1 strainer (filter sock)
This also corresponds to a Carter P74037 pump / STS-2 strainer.
The pump also crosses to a AC/Delco EP386 or a Delphi FE 0115.
These pumps were used on 1004 various vehicles including Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Chevrolet, Olds, and Pontiac vehicles from 1982 to 1996 including up to one ton pickups and 3/4 ton Surburbans. If you want to perhaps find some at the junk yard or want the application, to see the complete list go to the AC/Delco site:
http://parts-catalog.acdelco.com/catalog/BuyersGuideSearch.php?BGRequest=1&part=EP386&catalog=11&parttype=2689
The whole trick is to figure out how to fasten them inside the existing fuel sender units alongside the fuel level sender. Bill Bramlett worked that all out.
The pump sells at O'Reillys for $69.99. I checked the Internet and prices were comparable except for Amazon where I ordered them for $40.24 delivered each and the stainer was $6.75 each. The total of $93.98 was less than I paid each for my AirTex external pump that I am using now and the spare that I carry. By the way, I will be having a spare Airtex for sale soon.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91289 is a reply to message #89979] |
Tue, 06 July 2010 16:02 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 26 June 2010 07:24 |
Slightly off topic, but I mentioned that during my last trip in AZ, I experienced what I thought was vapor lock for the first time with my electric pump on. Last night I discovered why--my electric pump is kaput. Even though it runs, it won't pump. Since I'm off for a 10 day trip in temps upto 110 +, I'm off to Napa this morning!!
|
Well there's more to the story. After I put on the new electric fuel pump and immediately noticed fuel spewing from behind the engine. The rubber hose that connects the cross car metal line to the suction side of the mechanical pump looked like a shower head. It had about 6 or 8 pinholes in it--not split. Luckily that was about a 15 minute job to replace. That expalined why I suddenly had so much "apparent" vapor lock trouble last year. Not only was the electric boost pump not working, but the mechanical pump was sucking air. So, I got off a bit late on my trip but going through the mountains last week with temps up to 110F, I never even had to use the electric pump. It never coughed once. Sometimes these double failures can really throw you to the wrong conclusion!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91303 is a reply to message #90006] |
Tue, 06 July 2010 17:59 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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| Ken Coit wrote on Sat, 26 June 2010 15:01 |
I agree that Emery is right. From the discussion here, I gather that some of
the resulting carbon chains will vaporize at 85°F, which starts the problem,
but surely isn't enough to vapor lock the coach as many wouldn't get out of
the driveway most of the year if that were the case.
I am proposing that we find out the parameters of the problem(s) and see if
there isn't an efficacious way to solve it. I know we can find expensive
ways, I have several in mind, and I know that just throwing stuff at the
symptoms is likely to catch the culprit, but wouldn't it be nice to
understand what fixed it?
Fred V. recently reported that he found his problem, the electric pump had
stopped pumping. So his setup might be a good one to copy if we are in a
hurry. Fred, what have you done to achieve vapor-free travel?
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07
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i took that elec. pump apart today. it is a solenoid type pump and the top diaphragm was mush! ethanol ate it up. i replaced it with our favorite Carter and bypassed the mechanical pump so i'm elec. only with a dashboard cutoff switch.
i cannot say that this has solved anything yet. i wonder if we need a higher pressure pump to fix the problem.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91378 is a reply to message #91303] |
Wed, 07 July 2010 08:37 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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| fred v wrote on Tue, 06 July 2010 18:59 |
i cannot say that this has solved anything yet. i wonder if we need a higher pressure pump to fix the problem.
|
I'm all electric but still have issues.
If we go to a higher pressure, we still need to regulate it down to 5 or 6 psi to avoid blowing past the needle valve in the carb's float bowl. That valve is sensitive and when it fails, gasoline spills over the top of the engine. Ask me how I know.
In the spirit of annoying Bob D's "simpler is better" sensitivities, I've been pondering a cool can. I'm thinking of a cool can in the AC blower box that would be part of a recirculation system. Perhaps the AC blower would pull enough heat out of the fuel to overcome the heat it attracted on the recirculation path. That would both cool the fuel and allow a higher-pressure system.
Might as well make some positive use of that dash AC. And on days where it would matter, the use of the dash AC is a given for me.
Rick "halfway joking--halfway" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91392 is a reply to message #91378] |
Wed, 07 July 2010 10:31 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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""I'm all electric but still have issues.
If we go to a higher pressure, we still need to regulate it down to 5 or 6 psi to avoid blowing past the needle valve in the carb's float bowl. That valve is sensitive and when it fails, gasoline spills over the top of the engine. Ask me how I know.
""
Vapor lock is starting to look a lot like our various braking issues. Some coaches seem to be fine while others aren't. Don't get me wrong since I don't have the answers, and I know coaches will vary between each other, but it really makes me suspicious that there may be 2, 3 or 4 things going on that make it hard to nail down the solution. As I mentioned in my previous posts, what I thought was vapor lock, really turned out to be an issue of sucking air into the mechanical pump. On my last trip with 10 % ethanol, and ambients of close to 110F, I never had to turn the electric pump on. It could be a combination of factors such as engine temperature, exhaust temperature and radiation, fuel properties, pump pressures, float levels, condition of the fuel lines, tank venting, and so on. I know that gets overwhelming when you have a serious problem you need to get rid of, but it may explain why some solutions work on some coaches and not on others.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91407 is a reply to message #91392] |
Wed, 07 July 2010 13:00 |
Tripp 33
Messages: 99
Registered: October 2009
Karma: 0
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Bob,
I live in Toledo OH and today I decided to take my 78 transmode out for a quick lunch run. On my way back it started sputtering and i luckily made it into a stone parking lot near my work.
I thought that my carb might not be getting fuel and when I looked in, it was bone dry. Then I of course pured some gasoline into the carb and it almost boiled out at that point.
So, It is resting in the 94 degree sun and I am hoping that the fuel pump got hot and stopped pumping. Any other ideas what could have caused this?
Again, it rain beautifully until the sputtering and now, nothing!
Thanks,
Jeff
Toledo, OH
78 Transmode
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM
> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 10:31:53 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture
>
>
>
> ""I'm all electric but still have issues.
>
> If we go to a higher pressure, we still need to regulate it down to 5 or 6 psi to avoid blowing past the needle valve in the carb's float bowl. That valve is sensitive and when it fails, gasoline spills over the top of the engine. Ask me how I know.
> ""
>
> Vapor lock is starting to look a lot like our various braking issues. Some coaches seem to be fine while others aren't. Don't get me wrong since I don't have the answers, and I know coaches will vary between each other, but it really makes me suspicious that there may be 2, 3 or 4 things going on that make it hard to nail down the solution. As I mentioned in my previous posts, what I thought was vapor lock, really turned out to be an issue of sucking air into the mechanical pump. On my last trip with 10 % ethanol, and ambients of close to 110F, I never had to turn the electric pump on. It could be a combination of factors such as engine temperature, exhaust temperature and radiation, fuel properties, pump pressures, float levels, condition of the fuel lines, tank venting, and so on. I know that gets overwhelming when you have a serious problem you need to get rid of, but it may explain why some solutions work on some coaches and not on others.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91408 is a reply to message #91407] |
Wed, 07 July 2010 13:15 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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| Tripp 33 wrote on Wed, 07 July 2010 14:00 |
I thought that my carb might not be getting fuel and when I looked in, it was bone dry. Then I of course pured some gasoline into the carb and it almost boiled out at that point.
|
Sounds like your carb is really hot. Before doing anything to the fuel system, check that you don't have a plugged or constricted muffler causing exhaust to flow through the intake manifold crossover. If that isn't an issue, the next step is to block the exhaust crossover in the manifold, which will help keep the carb a bit cooler. Also, make sure the carb is sitting on the requisite thick gasket, which will help insulate it from the manifold.
Rick "removing unwanted sources of carb heat first" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boiling point of gasoline / alcahol mixture [message #91410 is a reply to message #91392] |
Wed, 07 July 2010 13:24 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Wed, 07 July 2010 11:31 |
Vapor lock is starting to look a lot like our various braking issues. Some coaches seem to be fine while others aren't. Don't get me wrong since I don't have the answers, and I know coaches will vary between each other, but it really makes me suspicious that there may be 2, 3 or 4 things going on that make it hard to nail down the solution.
|
No doubt. It might also be related to the whole discussion of the cycling of the fan clutch, which indicates that the radiator is not getting enough ram air to cool during highway cruise and needs the extra boost of the fan. I wonder if there is a correlation between those who have their fans cycling all the time and those who experience vapor lock. I have both, despite a cooling system that is tip-top. Rather than blaming the fan clutch, I'm thinking that something is preventing the hot air in the engine compartment from flushing out--at speed for the clutch issue and while idling for the vapor lock issue. Just speculation, of course.
I doubt that the regional formulations of fuel in Arizona are the same as in Virginia. For us, 100 degrees is the rare exception, not an every-day occurrence, and I suspect the fuel is formulated on the assumption of lower ambient temps here.
Rick "not really considering a cool can in the AC blower box" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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