Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM
| [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87314] |
Fri, 04 June 2010 18:02  |
Charles Aulgur
Messages: 78
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Fellow GNC Netters,
Rick Flanagan and I have spent thousands of hours designing and
testing the subject brake modification, hopefully to not only benefit
ourselves and our love-ones, but to help extend the lives of our
wonderful GMCs and and maybe save some lives or serious injuries
along the way. It has been very frustrating for me as I have been
trying for over four years to get people interested in the
modification. I have given three seminars with various different aids
trying to explain the benefits of this modification but have not
stirred up much interest, even from very close friends in the three
GMC clubs that I am a member. I keep asking people what I am doing
wrong and every one of them said "people don't understand what you
are talking about". We finally got some people interested at the
Auburn rally after they drove Rick's coach but any interest on the
GMC net lasted about two days.
We know that there are many technical savvy people on the GMC net
that know a lot more about the GMCs and all things mechanical then
we do and we would like you folks to evaluate the pros and cons of
this modification and let us know if there are things that need to be
modified or improved before we get many more of these modifications
on the road. There has not been anything ever made by man that can't
be improved. There are lots of photos, CAD drawings and descriptions
one the GMCWS web site, the GMC photo site, on Gene's web site and on
Billy's web site for you to review. I received an e-mail today that
said a lot of videos from the braking test performed on Rick's coach
are now on Applied GMC 's web site. Also, I'm sure Rick will send a
Cad e-mail copy of any drawing(s) you want to see so get those brains
working.
Chuck Aulgur
La Mesa CA
76 GMC with six wheel braking
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87332 is a reply to message #87314] |
Fri, 04 June 2010 22:08  |
rwbmitiopt@comcast.net
Messages: 189
Registered: April 2005
Karma: 0
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Chuck
I understand your frustation. Ask the engineers at Volvo what the public's reaction to safety is.
I would love to have one of the reaction arm units, but right now I'm more interested in the reliability of my coach on a day to day basis. A year or so ago I had a reliable source of discretionary funds to buy what I wanted for my GMC hobby. That has changed, unless I want to go back contracting, and I don't. In the meantime a $4K bill (parts only) is more than I want to or can justify to even myself.
I'm sure most owners out there would install every upgrade that becomes availabe if money were no object (but money is an object). As owners we prioritize what fits our algorithm best so it is not for lack interest or desire that the GMC'rs are not jumping on your great upgrade. We need to alocate our resources where we feel we get the best return for our investment.
If I live long enough and IF I my GMC keeps running and IF I have funds I will have 6 wheel disks and Torque Reaction System.
Thank you for your effort and continued support of the GMC community
Randy Burns
Randall Burns
Sammamish WA
75 EX GB
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87353 is a reply to message #87314] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 07:20 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| Charles Aulgur wrote on Fri, 04 June 2010 18:02 |
Fellow GNC Netters,
Rick Flanagan and I have spent thousands of hours designing and
testing the subject brake modification, hopefully to not only benefit
ourselves and our love-ones, but to help extend the lives of our
wonderful GMCs and and maybe save some lives or serious injuries
along the way. It has been very frustrating for me as I have been
trying for over four years to get people interested in the
modification. I have given three seminars with various different aids
trying to explain the benefits of this modification but have not
stirred up much interest, even from very close friends in the three
GMC clubs that I am a member. I keep asking people what I am doing
wrong and every one of them said "people don't understand what you
are talking about". We finally got some people interested at the
Auburn rally after they drove Rick's coach but any interest on the
GMC net lasted about two days.
Chuck Aulgur
|
Chuck - please don't be discouraged. Unless someone has had engineering courses in statics and dynamics the concept can be hard to grasp. If someone has had the courses the advantages of a parallel link system are apparent. The dynamics of the GMC rear suspension, especially in panic braking are not intrinsically obvious. How those dynamics are modified by your system is less obvious. Please hang in there. As more postings such as SteveF's get the word out things will change. I have looked at all the pictures and drawings, printed them out and are giving them some thought. I'm not sure I'm smart enough mechanically to come up with any comments (I'm an electric guy) but if I have any I'll get them posted for comments. One thing that is still a hangup for me is lack of a parking brake but JimK says that is being worked on and I have my own ideas on that. Your electric Pbrake is interesting but I have not seen enough info on it other than the two pictures you have on the photo site and the comments about it you have made here in the last few weeks.
As for me I gotta get ours off the jackstands first.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87355 is a reply to message #87314] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 07:47 |
Carleton Douglas[1]
Messages: 174
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Chuck, I have been trying to send a e-mail to your address and it has
been returned 2 times.
I have some ideas for you and Jim on this subject.
Carleton
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Charles Aulgur <cwasdc@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Fellow GNC Netters,
>
> Rick Flanagan and I have spent thousands of hours designing and
> testing the subject brake modification, hopefully to not only benefit
> ourselves and our love-ones, but to help extend the lives of our
> wonderful GMCs and and maybe save some lives or serious injuries
>
> Chuck Aulgur
> La Mesa CA
> 76 GMC with six wheel braking
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Carleton Douglas
73 custom, by myself
Prescott, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87366 is a reply to message #87357] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 10:29 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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George,
That is exactly what some of us have tried to convince Chuck to leave
out of his seminars. HE understands it perfectly, and YOU probably do
to as well as others out there. BUT, I've watched the audience
reaction when Chuck starts speaking in a foreign tongue and It's not
what any speaker wants.
My take on something like this is: He said it works, I drove it to
see if it works, and both of the preceeding proved true. I don't give
a rat's behind why, as long as it does.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 6:57 AM, george <delve@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> I am interested in the new brake developments BUT
> Have yet to see any vector analysis, or even scalar analysis.
> Is there any?
> Even with the cad drawings and verbage flooding us, there seems not to be
> any representation of what is going on back there with respect to transfer
> of forces, finite element analysis and proof of engineering.
> Does it exist?
> If so, where is it?
> If not, why not?
> I, for one would like to see someone analyze the loads/forces involved with
> proposed hardware mods as to its adequacy before I plunk down a few [many]
> GMC $$ units.
> Does 'pig in a poke' apply?
>
> George DV
> Beautiful upstate NY
>
> 78 El2 403 HEI Goodyears/Alcoas
> And
> 76 Glenbrook 455 HEI Bridgestones/Alcoas
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87371 is a reply to message #87314] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 11:13 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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to help extend the lives of our
wonderful GMCs and and maybe save some lives or serious injuries
along the way. It has been very frustrating for me as I have been
trying for over four years to get people interested in the
modification. I have given three seminars with various different aids trying to explain the benefits of this modification but have not stirred up much interest, even from very close friends in the three GMC clubs that I am a member. I keep asking people what I am doing wrong and every one of them said "people don't understand what you are talking about".
_______________________________________________________
Your fix sounds good and is very good when tested but I think it has several things going against it.
Folks are funneling their money to upgrade the current GMC they own. It has working brakes from GMC engineers. It is hard to think that the OEM brakes are not good enough.
Many of the comments are, I would like to get your brakes but I have to save up some money - or - I am working on the coach first. There is nothing wrong with your brake system or your sell speech, things are a bit tight for a lot of us.
I would wonder if there is concern about LONG TERM SERVICE. These days we have seen many "Permanent" structures come tumbling down.
Other than COST, it just may be fear of changing the system out. For some this is a big change to the brake system.
For Others, they may have already updated their coach and it is just " GOOD ENOUGH ".
I understand your frustration and will be watching your product.
Perhaps over time it may become more popular, like the quadra bag suspension upgrade.
I found the Cad Drawings interesting. They can be found here:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=5481
I might suggest you put your seminar on DVD and sell it for cost of the DVD to GMCers. Perhaps you can make a two part story. the first would be the easy explanation, like a commercial of the brake system with examples. The SECOND would be the engineering side of it. One for the average RV owner, the other for the more mechanical engineer types. Might help your cause..
LarC ( Thinking UpGrade products will always have a cost barrier in a tight market )
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
_
[Updated on: Sat, 05 June 2010 11:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87378 is a reply to message #87353] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 11:46 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
We have over 5 -7 people working on the various parking brake systems
for us currently.
To keep costs down and come up with a reliable system that we can
supply for many years is a problem.
I know there are over 50 people using the hydraulic system with great results.
We all have Park on the transmission as the back up which majority of
our stock system needs to rely on as the original parking brake is
more of a passifier than the real thing.
Were open to have any one that can come up with a good parking brake
system that is inexpensive.
Chuck A has one that I like, yet were not committing to use it till we
evaluate few more designs and methods.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 5:20 AM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>
> Charles Aulgur wrote on Fri, 04 June 2010 18:02
>> Fellow GNC Netters,
>>
>> Rick Flanagan and I have spent thousands of hours designing and
>> testing the subject brake modification, hopefully to not only benefit
>> ourselves and our love-ones, but to help extend the lives of our
>> wonderful GMCs and and maybe save some lives or serious injuries
>> along the way. It has been very frustrating for me as I have been
>> trying for over four years to get people interested in the
>> modification. I have given three seminars with various different aids
>> trying to explain the benefits of this modification but have not
>> stirred up much interest, even from very close friends in the three
>> GMC clubs that I am a member. I keep asking people what I am doing
>> wrong and every one of them said "people don't understand what you
>> are talking about". Â We finally got some people interested at the
>> Auburn rally after they drove Rick's coach but any interest on the
>> GMC net lasted about two days.
>>
>> Chuck Aulgur
>
>
>
> Chuck - please don't be discouraged. Â Unless someone has had engineering courses in statics and dynamics the concept can be hard to grasp. Â If someone has had the courses the advantages of a parallel link system are apparent. Â The dynamics of the GMC rear suspension, especially in panic braking are not intrinsically obvious. Â How those dynamics are modified by your system is less obvious. Â Please hang in there. Â As more postings such as SteveF's get the word out things will change. Â I have looked at all the pictures and drawings, printed them out and are giving them some thought. Â I'm not sure I'm smart enough mechanically to come up with any comments (I'm an electric guy) but if I have any I'll get them posted for comments. Â One thing that is still a hangup for me is lack of a parking brake but JimK says that is being worked on and I have my own ideas on that. Â Your electric Pbrake is interesting but I have not seen enough info on it other than the two pictures you have on t
> Â he photo site and the comments about it you have made here in the last few weeks.
>
> Â As for me I gotta get ours off the jackstands first.
>
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150
> Palmyra WI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87402 is a reply to message #87373] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 15:57 |
George DV
Messages: 132
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Howard
You misunderstand the comment.
As a prospective customer for a mod [or two], and a professional engineer, I
want to understand what exactly I am trading good GMC units for in exchange
for a new item.
I would invoke my analytical analysis on this as I would on any significant
mod to my GMCs .
And am especially wary of a mod which affects a sensitive subsystem on
machines that are 30+years old.
Then there is the question: how did GM get away with inadequate brakes with
an implicit design defect for so long and avoid the Ralph Nader's of the
world? And in our litigious society.
I am curious and want to see established engineering backup data to the
astounding claims made which up til now have been undocumented, lacking
published technical analysis. Where are actual force diagrams, stress
analysis, vector diagrams , etc.?
I wonder where are the supporting docs behind a significant modification
which redefines the very core design of the GM created by a generous number
of automotive engineers in the space age of achievement.
Recent anecdotal reports, albeit from 'experts', is on its face, not very
persuasive and gives short shrift to the design merits..
My comments have nothing to do with anyone's personal attributes, motives or
sincerity.
Was it Sgt Friday who said "Just the facts, 'Maam'. "
George DV
Beautiful upstate NY
79 El2 HEI 403
And
76 Glenbrook 455 HEI
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87404 is a reply to message #87402] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 16:15 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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And the everlasting conflict between the technician
and the engineer continues. The technician (and
everybody else) sees that the bumblebee flies, and
the engineer "proves" that a bumblebee cannot fly!
* Mac Macdonald *
* USAF, Retired *
* Oklahoma City *
** "Money Pit" **
* '76 ex - P.B. *
----------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 16:57:12 -0400
From: delve@rochester.rr.com
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM
Howard
You misunderstand the comment.
As a prospective customer for a mod [or two], and a professional engineer, I
want to understand what exactly I am trading good GMC units for in exchange
for a new item.
I would invoke my analytical analysis on this as I would on any significant
mod to my GMCs .
And am especially wary of a mod which affects a sensitive subsystem on
machines that are 30+years old.
Then there is the question: how did GM get away with inadequate brakes with
an implicit design defect for so long and avoid the Ralph Nader's of the
world? And in our litigious society.
I am curious and want to see established engineering backup data to the
astounding claims made which up til now have been undocumented, lacking
published technical analysis. Where are actual force diagrams, stress
analysis, vector diagrams , etc.?
I wonder where are the supporting docs behind a significant modification
which redefines the very core design of the GM created by a generous number
of automotive engineers in the space age of achievement.
Recent anecdotal reports, albeit from 'experts', is on its face, not very
persuasive and gives short shrift to the design merits..
My comments have nothing to do with anyone's personal attributes, motives or
sincerity.
Was it Sgt Friday who said "Just the facts, 'Maam'. "
George DV
Beautiful upstate NY
79 El2 HEI 403
And
76 Glenbrook 455 HEI
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87405 is a reply to message #87357] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 16:24 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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George,
We elected not to publicize the Static or other engineering
representation as we felt we would not serve the majority.
If you like we have them floating around and can send them to you.
We might not be Registered Professional Engineers, but been there and done that.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 6:57 AM, george <delve@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> I am interested in the new brake developments BUT
> Have yet to see any vector analysis, or even scalar analysis.
> Is there any?
> Even with the cad drawings and verbage flooding us, there seems not to be
> any representation of what is going on back there with respect to transfer
> of forces, finite element  analysis and proof of engineering.
> Does it exist?
> If so, where is it?
> If not, why not?
> I, for one would like to see someone analyze  the loads/forces involved with
> proposed hardware mods as to its adequacy before I plunk down a few [many]
> GMC $$ units.
> Does 'pig in a poke' apply?
>
> George DV
> Beautiful upstate NY
>
> 78 El2 403 HEI Goodyears/Alcoas
> And
> 76 Glenbrook 455 HEI Bridgestones/Alcoas
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87418 is a reply to message #87405] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 17:26 |
Ken Coit
Messages: 151
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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George,
You sound like me, but I have been reading the posts on rear brakes for
several years now and I am convinced that if GM knew in 1972, what we know
in 2010, they would have built a different brake system. The fact that it
was adequate for my trip from Ohio to NC, does not mean that I liked it a
bit. I have driven modern GM trucks of similar weight and the brakes are
much better than our pet RVs.
Chuck A. has studied and designed and re-designed until he has a system that
allows all six wheels to be used pretty evenly for braking. That is a major
improvement. It is being road tested for reliability. It is simple compared
with the stock drum system. Maybe you need to visit with Chuck and satisfy
your engineering curiosity. I am sure he'd love to convert you.
--
Ken Coit, ND7N
Raleigh, NC
Parfait Royale
1978 Royale Rear Bath, 403, 3.07, stock brakes so far
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| Re: [GMCnet] REAR BRAKE TORQUE REACTION SYSTEM [message #87438 is a reply to message #87425] |
Sat, 05 June 2010 18:55 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Paul,
I said the same thing to myself so I Googled it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_potential
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Analysis
I read this and I still don't have a bloody clue as to what it means!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Leavitt
Whats "scalar analysis",,,PL
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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