Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs
| [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87158] |
Thu, 03 June 2010 18:38  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G’day,
I noted that ARP sells head retaining studs and nuts that replace the bolts
and was wondering what the advantage was of using studs and nuts over bolts.
Does they help keep the cylinders true when torqued?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87207 is a reply to message #87177] |
Thu, 03 June 2010 21:40  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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We have the ARP studs on our CAD 540 as we know when we use the torque
plate in the boring and honing process the studs will never change
location in the block.
I use them only because the machine shop I selected felt it was best for me
Since we had to tear down the engine couple times do to their error,
all thet work as far as I'm concerned went down the drain.
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 6:01 PM, John Wright <powerjon@chartermi.net> wrote:
> Actually you can use the studs and install and remove  the heads.  Use
> the ARP 184-4001 stud over the head bolts. Â The real problem is
> installing the pushrods.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=26506&title=edelbrock-heads-and-aluminum-manifold-upgrade&cat=4956
> Â >
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=26509&title=edelbrock-heads-and-aluminum-manifold-upgrade&cat=4956
> Â >
>
> J.R. Wright
>
>
> On Jun 3, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Paul Leavitt wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> RM, ARP products are really good quality, have them in the forged
>> rods on my 509. Studs for the heads are suposed to be superior to
>> bolts, BUT, I think I read that you will be unable to remove a head
>> if you need to because it will hit the floor before it clears.PL
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87215 is a reply to message #87158] |
Thu, 03 June 2010 22:00 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Thu, 03 June 2010 19:38 |
G�ay,
I noted that ARP sells head retaining studs and nuts that replace the bolts and was wondering what the advantage was of using studs and nuts over bolts.
Does they help keep the cylinders true when torqued?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
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Rob,
The sad fact no. . . .
The bore distortion is most often a result of the eccentric load that is needed to cause the load distribution so as to adequately load the gasket's combustion seal. How you get there does not matter.
As far as arriving at the required load and maintaining it during operation, under cut studs have no advantage over effectively tensioned bolts (these are really screws by their function, but don't tell anybody else).
If the clamp load is adequate, more does not get you much.
Racers like the full shank studs because they don't put an engine through very many thermal cycles and you can get to higher clamp loads. But that higher clamp load on the head gasket usually causes more bore distortion and higher oil consumption, which is another thing racers don't really care about.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87328 is a reply to message #87158] |
Fri, 04 June 2010 21:33 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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If one is concerned about bore distortion when the head is put on and tightened, now we are into something called "head plates".
Usually big expensive pieces of steel that when installed and torqued into place using the same exact style of head gasket as will be used in the final build distort the bore so when final honed the bore is round. I hear the real serious engine shops somehow flow hot water through the block on the final power honing, and also have the main bearing caps torqued in place. "They" say the results can be measured(more room in your wallet LOL) I bet a Hendrick engine in their Sprint Cup engines have all this and more !!!
DAVE KING
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87333 is a reply to message #87328] |
Fri, 04 June 2010 22:09 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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On my engine they focused on all the fancy work and neglected the
valve guide clearance to where two seized .
After that go around the hard seats fell out.
All that fancy work went down the toilet.
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Dave King <kingd@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> If one is concerned about bore distortion when the head is put on and tightened, now we are into something called "head plates".
> Usually big expensive pieces of steel that when installed and torqued into place using the same exact style of head gasket as will be used in the final build distort the bore so when final honed the bore is round. I hear the real serious engine shops somehow flow hot water through the block on the final power honing, and also have the main bearing caps torqued in place. "They" say the results can be measured(more room in your wallet LOL) I bet a Hendrick engine in their Sprint Cup engines have all this and more !!!
>
> DAVE KING
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87334 is a reply to message #87333] |
Fri, 04 June 2010 22:38 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Jim, brand new high $ valves, seats, guides, with really good teflon valve
seals, all with not enough clearance will "gar un tee" stuck valves and a
grenaded top end at the very least. Just because parts are new, that don't
make em right as you know too well. Hopefully that cadillac is finally
sorted out and broken in. I enjoyed finally getting to meet you in person
after all those phone conversations from Oregon. Jim Hupy
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> On my engine they focused on all the fancy work and neglected the
> valve guide clearance to where two seized .
> After that go around the hard seats fell out.
> All that fancy work went down the toilet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Dave King <kingd@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> > If one is concerned about bore distortion when the head is put on and
> tightened, now we are into something called "head plates".
> > Usually big expensive pieces of steel that when installed and torqued
> into place using the same exact style of head gasket as will be used in the
> final build distort the bore so when final honed the bore is round. I hear
> the real serious engine shops somehow flow hot water through the block on
> the final power honing, and also have the main bearing caps torqued in
> place. "They" say the results can be measured(more room in your wallet LOL)
> I bet a Hendrick engine in their Sprint Cup engines have all this and more
> !!!
> >
> > DAVE KING
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cylinder head bolts vs. ARP studs [message #87337 is a reply to message #87334] |
Fri, 04 June 2010 23:04 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jim H,
It was great to meet you as well.
These machine shops are not very familier with the Olds and
Cad engines.
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:38 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jim, brand new high $ valves, seats, guides, with really good teflon valve
> seals, all with not enough clearance will "gar un tee" stuck valves and a
> grenaded top end at the very least. Just because parts are new, that don't
> make em right as you know too well. Hopefully that cadillac is finally
> sorted out and broken in. I enjoyed finally getting to meet you in person
> after all those phone conversations from Oregon. Jim Hupy
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:09 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On my engine they focused on all the fancy work and neglected the
>> valve guide clearance to where two seized .
>> After that go around the hard seats fell out.
>> All that fancy work went down the toilet.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Dave King <kingd@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > If one is concerned about bore distortion when the head is put on and
>> tightened, now we are into something called "head plates".
>> > Usually big expensive pieces of steel that when installed and torqued
>> into place using the same exact style of head gasket as will be used in the
>> final build distort the bore so when final honed the bore is round. I hear
>> the real serious engine shops somehow flow hot water through the block on
>> the final power honing, and also have the main bearing caps torqued in
>> place. "They" say the results can be measured(more room in your wallet LOL)
>> I bet a Hendrick engine in their Sprint Cup engines have all this and more
>> !!!
>> >
>> > DAVE KING
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > GMCnet mailing list
>> > List Information and Subscription Options:
>> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> Â _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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