Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85684 is a reply to message #85592] |
Sat, 22 May 2010 21:39   |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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The question I have is: If the exhaust crossover is blocked does this crack cause a problem? If so does filling the crossover solve the problem?
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85697 is a reply to message #85693] |
Sat, 22 May 2010 23:34 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Hope that the intake gasket will have the SS block off plates.
Otherwise the aluminum will work out after several thousand miles.
What works on cars do not work on most motor homes.
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I was mulling this over and looking at Kelvin's pictures when I noted this
> picture:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10789
>
> As you can see it shows a crack in the bottom of the crossover and that the
> crossover is filled. I came to conclusion that after Kelvin filled it he
> installed it! I've sent a Cc to his email and hopefully he will confirm
> that's what he did and what the results were.
>
> As far as just blocking the crossovers with a plate between the heads and
> intake goes I don't think that would solve the whole problem. If the seal
> between the heads and intake was leak tight it would prevent exhaust gases
> from getting into the intake and lifter valley, however, oil laden air from
> the lifter valley could get sucked into the crossover and then into intake.
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Southworth
>
> The question I have is: Â If the exhaust crossover is blocked does this crack
> cause a problem? Â If so does filling the crossover solve the problem?
>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85702 is a reply to message #85700] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 01:30 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Rob,
Your correct, I was thinking of Zinc, not aluminum.
Thanks for correcting.
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I don't understand how that could happen, the melting point of Aluminum is
> 1220°F and if it got hot enough to melt the aluminum out of the cast iron
> manifold where it interfaces with the heads would it not also melt the
> aluminum manifold where it interfaces with the heads?
>
> I do agree that if you use zinc to fill the manifold (melting point of
> 785°F) it could / would be a problem.
>
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Kanomata
>
> Hope that the intake gasket will have the SS block off plates.
> Otherwise the aluminum will work out after several thousand miles.
> What works on cars do not work on most motor homes.
>
> Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85706 is a reply to message #85700] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 07:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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On the other hand, Joe Mondello strongly recommends the use of his zinc
alloy IN THE HEAD to seal the crossover runner before the gases even reach
the intake manifold. He considers it very important to improving the gas
flow to the remaining exhaust ports. I've always been very dubious of that
idea because of deterioration of the zinc, but he stoutly maintains that
he's got a race engine that's been running in that configuration for 11+
years.
While on the topic of Joe & heads: He finally convinced me, at Bean
Station, of the importance of separating the two center exhaust ports by
welding/brazing a barrier between them. Otherwise there's cross-flow
between the center two cylinders. Makes sense to me.
Oh yeah, directly to the point: I ran with zinc in an Edelbrock aluminum
manifold, unprotected, for 20,000+ miles; there was no obvious deterioration
of the zinc.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> ...I do agree that if you use zinc to fill the manifold (melting point of
> 785°F) it could / would be a problem.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85710 is a reply to message #85693] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 08:14 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 22:59 |
Steve,
I was mulling this over and looking at Kelvin's pictures when I noted this
picture:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10789
As far as just blocking the crossovers with a plate between the heads and
intake goes I don't think that would solve the whole problem. If the seal
between the heads and intake was leak tight it would prevent exhaust gases
from getting into the intake and lifter valley, however, oil laden air from
the lifter valley could get sucked into the crossover and then into intake.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
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i just cannot believe that there would be any flow from the lifter valley into the intake plenum. just the fact that there is oil there would all but plug the crack. we are talking about a crack not an open gap.
this has been discussed before and i mentioned that i would like to test a manifold with a vacuum pump to see if anything at all would be pulled through the crack.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85712 is a reply to message #85706] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 08:24 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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On May 23, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
> On the other hand, Joe Mondello strongly recommends the use of his
> zinc
> alloy IN THE HEAD to seal the crossover runner before the gases even
> reach
> the intake manifold. He considers it very important to improving
> the gas
> flow to the remaining exhaust ports. I've always been very dubious
> of that
> idea because of deterioration of the zinc, but he stoutly maintains
> that
> he's got a race engine that's been running in that configuration for
> 11+
> years.
>
> While on the topic of Joe & heads: He finally convinced me, at Bean
> Station, of the importance of separating the two center exhaust
> ports by
> welding/brazing a barrier between them. Otherwise there's cross-flow
> between the center two cylinders. Makes sense to me.
>
> Oh yeah, directly to the point: I ran with zinc in an Edelbrock
> aluminum
> manifold, unprotected, for 20,000+ miles; there was no obvious
> deterioration
> of the zinc.
>
Several years ago I found that my manifold had a crack at the bottom
i called Mondellos shop to order the zinc and the gaskets. I asked if
there was anything else I had to do. They said "no".
I order it and installed it and my first trip was to California. Upon
reaching California I found that my left side was leaking badly at the
top of the intake manifold/head. I stopped at Mondello's shop and
parked in front. I went in and spoke to a clerk and then to a
mechanic. They wouldn't even go out and take a look. The mechanic then
told me that I should have machined some of each side of the intake so
that it would sit down more with their thicker gaskets and that I
should have installed their stainless steel plates.
I asked why the order clerk had not told me that over the phone when I
ordered the zinc and all he could say was that "he should have".
I used some Permatex Ultra Copper to seal the leak from the outside
and it held fine until I returned home
When I took the manifold off to have it machined I found the gasket
burned through at the opening to the head and the top center and about
1" of the zinc melted away from inside of the manifold.
I machined the manifold and installed the stainless steel plates and
it has been ok ever since.
If anyone is doing this I suggest that you order your stainless steel
plates and gaskets from Dick Paterson. They are the same but a lot
cheaper than Mondello sells them for.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe. NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85739 is a reply to message #85706] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 15:59 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
What kind of "race car?" IMHO if it's a drag race car that ran for a couple
of minutes at a time it's apples and oranges! Also most race cars are pretty
light with exhaust systems that get the exhaust gas out of the heads NOW.
Bottom line I would like to know how the cylinder head / exhaust gas temp of
the race car compares to our GMC's; red delicious vs. Granny Smith?
I can't remember clearly but didn't Dick Paterson talk about the exhaust
cross flow in one of his engine building presentations? IIRC Ken Frey had a
spare engine with a welded up center rib of the middle exhaust port when I
was at his shop in 2008. I can't remember if I asked him about it or not?
I wonder if an aluminum manifold vs. cast iron had an effect on you not
having a problem with the zinc?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
On the other hand, Joe Mondello . . . .STOUTLY MAINTAINS THAT
HE'S GOT A RACE ENGINE THAT'S BEEN RUNNING IN THAT CONFIGURATION FOR 11+
YEARS.
Joe convinced me of the importance of separating the two center exhaust
ports by welding/brazing a barrier between them. OTHERWISE THERE'S
CROSS-FLOW BETWEEN THE CENTER TWO CYLINDERS. Makes sense to me.
Oh yeah, directly to the point: I ran with zinc in an EDELBROCK ALUMINUM
MANIFOLD, unprotected, for 20,000+ miles; there was no obvious deterioration
of the zinc.
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85741 is a reply to message #85739] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 17:01 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I don't remember that Joe specified how the engine is run, but I have the
impression that it was "round & round", not "down & back"
Dick may have mentioned separating the exhaust ports but I don't remember
it. I know several on GMCNet have mentioned doing it; I never gave it much
thought before.
Certainly the aluminum would have conducted heat away from the zinc better
than the iron. The significant point to me is that Joe, and others, put the
same "Mondello Metal" into the heads where it's exposed to the exhaust
immediately beneath the exhaust valve. Surprises me that is will stay
there, but it apparently does.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Ken,
>
> What kind of "race car?" IMHO if it's a drag race car that ran for a couple
> of minutes at a time it's apples and oranges! Also most race cars are
> pretty
> light with exhaust systems that get the exhaust gas out of the heads NOW.
> Bottom line I would like to know how the cylinder head / exhaust gas temp
> of
> the race car compares to our GMC's; red delicious vs. Granny Smith?
>
> I can't remember clearly but didn't Dick Paterson talk about the exhaust
> cross flow in one of his engine building presentations? IIRC Ken Frey had a
> spare engine with a welded up center rib of the middle exhaust port when I
> was at his shop in 2008. I can't remember if I asked him about it or not?
>
> I wonder if an aluminum manifold vs. cast iron had an effect on you not
> having a problem with the zinc?
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85751 is a reply to message #85741] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 19:42 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Dick Paterson built my engine about 12 years ago and I remember he was adamant about welding the piece in the manifold.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85752 is a reply to message #85741] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 19:45 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
If "Mondello Metal" is zinc it doesn't make sense to me that it would stay
in a GMC's heads considering what Emery and Jim K have noted regarding zinc
melting out of the cast iron intake.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Rob,
The significant point to me is that Joe, and others, put the same "Mondello
Metal" into the heads where it's exposed to the exhaust immediately beneath
the exhaust valve. Surprises me that is will stay there, but it apparently
does.
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85753 is a reply to message #85684] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 20:44 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| midlf wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 21:39 |
The question I have is: If the exhaust crossover is blocked does this crack cause a problem? If so does filling the crossover solve the problem?
|
From the posts on this thread following the above post it appears that filling the crossover will take care of any leakage that might be caused by a crack.
Looking through the photo archive searching on "zinc" I found a reference to a zinc fill being 20lbs of metal. Does anyone have an idea of the weight of aluminum needed for filling the crossover (or are ya gonna make me do the math.)
After SteveF noted that my manifold coking looked like oil rather than fuel (see this pic:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=33691&title=carbon-deposits-in-intake-bores-&cat=5458
)
I was thinking perhaps oil was being sucked up into the intake from the valley through the crack but it does not appear that would be possible. If anything was gonna get through the crack it would be exhaust into the intake and the valley.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85759 is a reply to message #85753] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 21:44 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| midlf wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 20:44 |
| midlf wrote on Sat, 22 May 2010 21:39 |
The question I have is: If the exhaust crossover is blocked does this crack cause a problem? If so does filling the crossover solve the problem?
|
From the posts on this thread following the above post it appears that filling the crossover will take care of any leakage that might be caused by a crack.
Looking through the photo archive searching on "zinc" I found a reference to a zinc fill being 20lbs of metal. Does anyone have an idea of the weight of aluminum needed for filling the crossover (or are ya gonna make me do the math.)
After SteveF noted that my manifold coking looked like oil rather than fuel (see this pic:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=33691&title=carbon-deposits-in-intake-bores-&cat=5458
)
I was thinking perhaps oil was being sucked up into the intake from the valley through the crack but it does not appear that would be possible. If anything was gonna get through the crack it would be exhaust into the intake and the valley.
|
without filling the crossover you have positive pressure in the crossover. with blocking plates the engine would have to suck oil until the crossover filled all the way up with oil before it would be sucked into the plenum. with the crossover filled no oil or exhaust will get into or out of the crossover.
am i thinking correct? so the carbon deposit is curious.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cracked Intake Photo [message #85760 is a reply to message #85756] |
Sun, 23 May 2010 21:47 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Perhaps you didn't buy the "full monte" -- he now offers 3 stages of engine
(for the GMC -- I don't know for others) from $7,000-$12,000. He mentioned
filling the head passages during a couple of conversations we've had, and
during his presentations at both GMCES and GMCDL rallies. Or maybe he's
taken up the practice since 2000. I dunno.
Ken H.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 10:17 PM, Mr.erf ERFisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>wrote:
> that is very strange,because when I bought my new engine from Joe and lynn
> in about 2000,they only considered filling the crossovers , which they did
> as is shown here
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4017
>
> I always thought it was a miss-quote about filling the heads
> JWIT
> gene
>
>
> On the other hand, Joe Mondello strongly recommends the use of his zinc
> > alloy IN THE HEAD to seal the crossover runner before the gases even
> reach
> > the intake manifold.
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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