Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy (Tired of Plugging in the 50 amp into the generator)
| Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #83180] |
Wed, 05 May 2010 13:24  |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
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Our first coach automatically switched between Generator-Shoreline-Inverter.
I currently don't have a big inverter but don't want to have to remove the 30 amp adapter and try to get 50 amp twisted into position to plug into the generator plug.
What do you call it? Which brand should I get? Where does it go? How does it work?
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
[Updated on: Wed, 05 May 2010 14:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #83320 is a reply to message #83180] |
Thu, 06 May 2010 09:44  |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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| George Beckman wrote on Wed, 05 May 2010 14:24 |
I currently don't have a big inverter but don't want to have to remove the 30 amp adapter and try to get 50 amp twisted into position to plug into the generator plug.
What do you call it? Which brand should I get? Where does it go? How does it work?
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Iota makes transfer switches for RV's, both in 30-amp models and in 50-amp models. I bought a 50-amp model off ebay for about $80 about a year ago or a bit more, and installed it last year.
The Iota model I have switches the neutral and both hots separately, with the require break-before-make switching. I do not have an inverter and have not considered the issue of the ground and neutral being tied together. Generally, the neutral should only be tied to ground at the source of power, which in the case of the inverter IS the inverter. The main issue is that when running on shore power, the neutral should NOT be grounded on the coach, AT ALL. Otherwise, a neutral fault can electrify the coach.
The Iota model that I bought can with reasonable instructions.
It has a feature that I find highly desirable, especially with my flaky Generac 36G generator. When it senses power coming from the generator, it does nothing for about 30 seconds, which gives the generator time to stabilize and warm up. Then it switches power over to the generator.
Here's the manufacturer's description of what I bought:
http://www.iotaengineering.com/its50r.htm
I installed it in the lower cabinet, right next to the breaker box, as shown here:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29839&title=interior-improvements&cat=5212
When I installed it, I replace my shore-power cable to one that was 8 gauge on all conductors, and just long enough to hang into the outside box about a foot. I use a ready-made 50-amp shore power cable to get it from there to the campground box. My coach no longer had the storage area for the shore-power cable. My generator is wired into the transfer switch using 10/4 cable, with the two hots tied together coming from the generator. That's big enough for the 30-amp output of the generator. The coach is wired for two 40-amp circuits, which each being fed by a separate hot from the 50-amp connections, and both sharing a neutral. Make sure the neutral is not grounded in the circuit-breaker box.
Rick "who was happy with moving the plug until the Iota box appear on ebay for so cheap" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #83350 is a reply to message #83325] |
Thu, 06 May 2010 13:04 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| Tom Lins wrote on Thu, 06 May 2010 08:07 |
Rick "who was happy with moving the plug until the Iota box appear on ebay for so cheap" Denney
Same unit I installed
There is an Iota 50 amp transfer switch on ebay right now for $78 plus shipping. Item 150438345715
It is a buy it now and there are 3 available.
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Thanks to Ken, Rick and Tom. Done deal. I have purchased one of the three Iota units on E-Bay.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #83391 is a reply to message #83325] |
Thu, 06 May 2010 20:03 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Tom,
Thanks for this, I got the last one!
I checked an Iota retailer and he had these for $225!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lins
Sent: Friday, 7 May 2010 1:07 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy
Same unit I installed
There is an Iota 50 amp transfer switch on ebay right now for $78 plus
shipping. Item 150438345715
It is a buy it now and there are 3 available.
--
Tom Lins
Milltown, NJ
78 xPB
GMC Dealer Training Tapes on CD
GMC Maintenance Manuals on CD
www.bdub.net/tomlins/
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84104 is a reply to message #83320] |
Tue, 11 May 2010 15:49 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| Rick Denney wrote on Thu, 06 May 2010 07:44 |
Iota makes transfer switches for RV's, both in 30-amp models and in 50-amp models. I bought a 50-amp model off ebay for about $80 about a year ago or a bit more, and installed it last year.
The Iota model I have switches the neutral and both hots separately, with the require break-before-make switching. I do not have an inverter and have not considered the issue of the ground and neutral being tied together. Generally, the neutral should only be tied to ground at the source of power, which in the case of the inverter IS the inverter. The main issue is that when running on shore power, the neutral should NOT be grounded on the coach, AT ALL. Otherwise, a neutral fault can electrify the coach.
The Iota model that I bought can with reasonable instructions.
It has a feature that I find highly desirable, especially with my flaky Generac 36G generator. When it senses power coming from the generator, it does nothing for about 30 seconds, which gives the generator time to stabilize and warm up. Then it switches power over to the generator.
When I installed it, I replace my shore-power cable to one that was 8 gauge on all conductors, and just long enough to hang into the outside box about a foot. I use a ready-made 50-amp shore power cable to get it from there to the campground box. My coach no longer had the storage area for the shore-power cable. My generator is wired into the transfer switch using 10/4 cable, with the two hots tied together coming from the generator. That's big enough for the 30-amp output of the generator. The coach is wired for two 40-amp circuits, which each being fed by a separate hot from the 50-amp connections, and both sharing a neutral. Make sure the neutral is not grounded in the circuit-breaker box.
Rick "who was happy with moving the plug until the Iota box appear on ebay for so cheap" Denney
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Rick, et al,
I purchase the Iota box you suggested. It came quickly and looks like a tidy unit. I am not a wiring genius. I was wondering if you could say a bit more about what goes where. I want to keep my 50 amp cable.
I know I have to pick up the Gen current from behind the big plug. I am assuming I can use wire nuts there? or do I need some sort of J-Box? I suppose I run 8 gauge from there to the Iota. I think I also have to disconnect the 50 cable and run wires from it to the Iota. I am guessing all that is left after those connections, would be the connection to the "house" circuit. Can I assume that this house circuit wire will go to the place where the 50 amp cable originally connected?
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84116 is a reply to message #84104] |
Tue, 11 May 2010 16:39 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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| George Beckman wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:49 |
I know I have to pick up the Gen current from behind the big plug. I am assuming I can use wire nuts there? or do I need some sort of J-Box? I suppose I run 8 gauge from there to the Iota. I think I also have to disconnect the 50 cable and run wires from it to the Iota. I am guessing all that is left after those connections, would be the connection to the "house" circuit. Can I assume that this house circuit wire will go to the place where the 50 amp cable originally connected?
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You can just remove the big receptacle and attach an extension wire from there to the Iota using wire nuts, but I don't like using wire nuts in the motorhome. When I did it, I replace the wire from the generator all the way back to the generator's connection (which is a J-box next to the Onan). What size you need depends on the Onan. 8-gauge is fine, but 10-gauge will work also with a 4K Onan.
Your other assumptions are correct. The shore-power cable goes to the Iota box, and the load circuits (the Iota's output) go from the Iota box to the main panel. That will be where the current short-power cable is wired.
Remember not to connect the neutral to ground anywhere, except in the generator's J-box back by the genset (it should already be grounded there). The neutral should be connected to ground only at the source, which in the case of the shore power is at the campground's panel, not on the coach.
The Iota has three inputs and an output, as I recall. Unless you intend to wire in a full-time inverter, you'll only use two.
Don't take risks. Get help if you aren't fully confident.
Rick "recommending against an electrified coach body" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84135 is a reply to message #84116] |
Tue, 11 May 2010 20:13 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Rick et al,
Keep in mind that I am electrically challenged!
This sentence interests me.
I bought one of these for Double Trouble. I WILL wire in the Onan and Shore
Power.
I have a Xantrex 2000W inverter and would like to wire it in too but I think
I will have a problem with that. If I wire in the inverter it will try to
power all the A/C circuits (hot water heater, refrigerator, power points,
Professional Dynamics converter). That will overload the inverter. I realize
I could switch off all the hot water heater, refrigerator, and Professional
Dynamics converter but that's a pain.
I noticed that they have some 30 amp units on eBay (190394148177) for $52.00
and I was wondering if I could wire one of those with two inputs, one from
shore power and one from the inverter and one output to a single power point
in the galley where I could plug in the microwave, coffee maker, toaster
etc?
I guess what I'm asking is how does this unit know which power input to
select?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rick Denney
Sent: Wednesday, 12 May 2010 7:39 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy
The Iota has three inputs and an output, as I recall. Unless you intend to
wire in a full-time inverter, you'll only use two.
Rick "recommending against an electrified coach body" Denney
--
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84145 is a reply to message #84135] |
Tue, 11 May 2010 21:29 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Rob,
The 50A transfer switch is basically the same design as I've pointed out for
30A, doubled (plus another relay to ensure proper ground switching) so that
it can handle 240 vac (even though the GMC uses both legs for 120 vac. A
120 vac only device, like your inverter (or the Onan), can be wired into
only one of those two parallel input circuits, and offer its output on the
corresponding one of the parallel output circuits.
Your circuit breaker box, just like in a home (in the US), has two buss
bars, one for each leg of a 240 vac service. If you arrange the circuit
breakers so that one buss has those circuits you want powered only from the
inverter, and supply that buss from the inverter side of the transfer
switch, you won't have to fool with the rewiring, etc, you propose. Shore
or Onan power can be provided to both of the parallel circuits so that they
serve both buss bars in the breaker box and all downstream circuits.
I'll bet all of this will be illustrated in the transfer switch manual.
Oh yeah: How do it know? When wiring the switch, you set the priority of
each source. The active source with the highest priority will seize the
circuit and supply the output. Any other active sources will be locked out
until they become the highest priority source; all three can be active but
only one will supply the output.
Real simple & clear, huh? Like "understanding" a woman.
Ken H.
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Rick et al,
>
> Keep in mind that I am electrically challenged!
>
> This sentence interests me.
>
> I bought one of these for Double Trouble. I WILL wire in the Onan and Shore
> Power.
>
> I have a Xantrex 2000W inverter and would like to wire it in too but I
> think
> I will have a problem with that. If I wire in the inverter it will try to
> power all the A/C circuits (hot water heater, refrigerator, power points,
> Professional Dynamics converter). That will overload the inverter. I
> realize
> I could switch off all the hot water heater, refrigerator, and Professional
> Dynamics converter but that's a pain.
>
> I noticed that they have some 30 amp units on eBay (190394148177) for
> $52.00
> and I was wondering if I could wire one of those with two inputs, one from
> shore power and one from the inverter and one output to a single power
> point
> in the galley where I could plug in the microwave, coffee maker, toaster
> etc?
>
> I guess what I'm asking is how does this unit know which power input to
> select?
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rick Denney
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 May 2010 7:39 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy
>
> The Iota has three inputs and an output, as I recall. Unless you intend to
> wire in a full-time inverter, you'll only use two.
>
> Rick "recommending against an electrified coach body" Denney
> --
> '73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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List Information and Subscription Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84157 is a reply to message #84145] |
Tue, 11 May 2010 23:04 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
THANKS!
You got it - Huh?
I told you I was electrically challenged! ;-)
Not to worry, no need for further explanations at this point in time. I now
know it would be possible to wire up the IOTA 50 AMP transfer switch so that
it only provides power to the wall sockets with the inverter I'll do some
study on the Internet on house wiring and get back to you!
I'll see if I can find a copy of the IOTA manual on the internet too.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Wednesday, 12 May 2010 12:29 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy
Rob,
The 50A transfer switch is basically the same design as I've pointed out for
30A, doubled (plus another relay to ensure proper ground switching) so that
it can handle 240 vac (even though the GMC uses both legs for 120 vac. A
120 vac only device, like your inverter (or the Onan), can be wired into
only one of those two parallel input circuits, and offer its output on the
corresponding one of the parallel output circuits.
Your circuit breaker box, just like in a home (in the US), has two buss
bars, one for each leg of a 240 vac service. If you arrange the circuit
breakers so that one buss has those circuits you want powered only from the
inverter, and supply that buss from the inverter side of the transfer
switch, you won't have to fool with the rewiring, etc, you propose. Shore
or Onan power can be provided to both of the parallel circuits so that they
serve both buss bars in the breaker box and all downstream circuits.
I'll bet all of this will be illustrated in the transfer switch manual.
Oh yeah: How do it know? When wiring the switch, you set the priority of
each source. The active source with the highest priority will seize the
circuit and supply the output. Any other active sources will be locked out
until they become the highest priority source; all three can be active but
only one will supply the output.
Real simple & clear, huh? Like "understanding" a woman.
Ken H.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84177 is a reply to message #84157] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 07:44 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 00:04 |
I'll see if I can find a copy of the IOTA manual on the internet too.
|
The Iota manual isn't that good. As I recall, it does describe the hierarchy. Basically, you have three inputs and one output. The inputs are arranged in a hierarchy. Normally, the inverter has the lowest priority, and is used only when there is no shore power or generator power present. So, when running on the inverter and plugging in shore power, the inverter will be disconnected from the output and the shore power will be connected. If you start the generator, it will do the same thing--the other sources will be switched out and the generator switched in. If you want shore power to have priority over the generator, just wire it into the generator input and wire the generator into the shore power input.
With a 50-amp coach, never, ever, ever connect the two 120VAC branches together. Ever. EXCEPT in the generator junction box, where both legs are fed from one source. When you get 50amp service from a campground, the two legs will be out of phase. When running from the generator or from an inverter, the two legs will be in phase. If the two legs are wired together in any part of the circuitry that can be seen by shore power, expect fireworks. Bring hot dogs and marshmallows so you can roast them over the fire.
When you wire in an inverter, it only has a 120VAC output (like the generator), so you need to wire it to one leg or the other. You can also wire it to both legs, BUT ONLY UPSTREAM FROM THE TRANSFER SWITCH. Again, the two legs can be wired to a single 120VAC supply ONLY at the SOURCE.
Sorry to yell, but this is important.
That's why the power panel has two buses--to keep the two legs separate. The voltage difference between the two buses when they are fed by 120VAC legs that are out of phase is 240VAC. We don't use any 240VAC appliances so these two buses are never used to power anything together--they are completely independent in the coach. That's why we can power it from in-phase 120VAC legs and everything works. Thus, if you only power one leg, only the appliances wired into the bus fed by that leg will be powered. If you can keep the loads attached to that bus below the rated output of your inverter, then you don't have to worry about overloading it.
If you had a 2400-watt inverter, it would power one leg to its full protected current (20 amps). Then, the main breaker for that bus would do your protecting for you. You can probably just wire the inverter to the bus that does not supply the roof air, and get close enough. But if the inverter is rated below the circuit protection for that bus, you still have to keep an eye on the loads. Your 2000-watt inverter might have a higher surge rating, so it might handle that 20 amps for a little while before its built-in circuit protection kicks in.
You can test which appliances are wire to which bus by just turn everything off, and then turning off one of the main breakers in the panel. Then, just turn stuff on and test receptacles to see what does and does not work.
Remember that the 240VAC in U.S. circuitry is split-phase--it come from two legs that are 120VAC sine waves that are out of phase to provide 240VAC RMS between them. 240VAC in 'Stralia and in the UK is 240VAC single phase--not the same.
Rick "avoiding the mixing of phases is the main purpose of transfer switches" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84199 is a reply to message #84177] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 10:41 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Rick,
Thanks for the in depth response and even though I didn't comprehend it
fully I think I've figger'd it out enough to say the following:
Below is a link to the Avion 120 VAC wiring diagram:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=33849
If I understood you correctly there are two phases:
Phase #1 has the rear roof A/C and Hot Water Heater wired to it
Phase #2 has the front roof A/C and the Wall Outlets wired to it
Therefore if I wired the Xantrex to Phase #2 it would supply power to those
two circuits. Obviously I would NEVER turn on the front roof air when
running on the Xantrex so it would only power the Wall Outlets. Normally the
Dometic Fridge and Professional Dynamics Converter stay plugged into the
wall outlets.
I will have to check the amp draw of the Dometic Fridge, Professional
Dynamics Converter, Microwave, Coffee Maker, and Toaster to see what I can
run from the Xantrex. I will not leave the Xantrex on, I will only switch it
on when I want to run the Microwave, Coffee Maker, or Toaster without
starting the generator. If the amp draw of the Dometic is too high I will
have to switch it from "Automatic" to "LPG" and turn off the Professional
Dynamics Converter. That raises another question, if I don't turn it off
will the PD sense the battery voltage going down and kick into the max
charge mode creating a greater current draw on the batteries?
At any rate I well and truly appreciate the electricity lesson for the day!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84211 is a reply to message #84199] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 12:08 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 11:41 |
If I understood you correctly there are two phases:
Phase #1 has the rear roof A/C and Hot Water Heater wired to it
Phase #2 has the front roof A/C and the Wall Outlets wired to it
...
I will have to check the amp draw of the Dometic Fridge, Professional Dynamics Converter, Microwave, Coffee Maker, and Toaster to see what I can run from the Xantrex. I will not leave the Xantrex on, I will only switch it on when I want to run the Microwave, Coffee Maker, or Toaster without starting the generator.
|
Yes, that's what that diagram shows. The black is one phase and the red is the other, and each has its own circuit breaker (the squiggly lines in the box at upper left in the diagram). Those squiggly lines connect each to its own small rectangle in the diagram--those are the two buses in the power panel.
The 12-volt stove for the Dometic draws about 5 amps, as I recall. My PD converter supplies up to 40 amps, which is 4 amps at 120VAC (nominal), which should be 5 amps or less even with inefficiency. These are each about 600 watts. The coffee maker has a heating element, so it will be some hundreds of watts. The microwave is probably 1000-1100 watts. If you attempt to run them all at once at full tilt, you'll exceed the capability of the Xantrex. But you can't run them all at once with the roof air without exceeding your 30-amp shore power supply anyway. The PD rarely runs at full tilt, and it's easy enough not to run the toaster, the coffemaker, and the microwave all at once. If you just run one of those three at any one time, you should be fine.
Rick "thinking both ACs by themselves would eat up 30 amps" Denney
'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84212 is a reply to message #84199] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 12:07 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
You definitely don't want the converter on the inverter buss -- unless
you've got that perpetual motion thing worked out. If there's a spare
breaker position on the #1 buss, just move the converter there.
Otherwise, at the risk of further complication, you might consider adding
still another relay which would close only when the #1 buss is active to
provide power to the converter from the #2 buss.
The refrigerator will probably be around a 600W draw, so you should probably
put it under the same arrangement as the converter.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Rick,
>
> Thanks for the in depth response and even though I didn't comprehend it
> fully I think I've figger'd it out enough to say the following:
>
> Below is a link to the Avion 120 VAC wiring diagram:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=33849
>
> If I understood you correctly there are two phases:
>
> Phase #1 has the rear roof A/C and Hot Water Heater wired to it
>
> Phase #2 has the front roof A/C and the Wall Outlets wired to it
>
> Therefore if I wired the Xantrex to Phase #2 it would supply power to those
> two circuits. Obviously I would NEVER turn on the front roof air when
> running on the Xantrex so it would only power the Wall Outlets. Normally
> the
> Dometic Fridge and Professional Dynamics Converter stay plugged into the
> wall outlets.
>
> I will have to check the amp draw of the Dometic Fridge, Professional
> Dynamics Converter, Microwave, Coffee Maker, and Toaster to see what I can
> run from the Xantrex. I will not leave the Xantrex on, I will only switch
> it
> on when I want to run the Microwave, Coffee Maker, or Toaster without
> starting the generator. If the amp draw of the Dometic is too high I will
> have to switch it from "Automatic" to "LPG" and turn off the Professional
> Dynamics Converter. That raises another question, if I don't turn it off
> will the PD sense the battery voltage going down and kick into the max
> charge mode creating a greater current draw on the batteries?
>
> At any rate I well and truly appreciate the electricity lesson for the day!
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84263 is a reply to message #84212] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 19:23 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
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Ken,
If I leave the PD on will it damage anything or just draw the max power of
60 watts?
I'd like to follow the KISS principle and wire the output of the Xantrex
into the Wall Outlets through the Iota and handle the amp draw with a check
list. The Xantrex is under the passenger side bed on top of the hot water
heater. It's easy to get to through the hot water heater access door.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=31266
I will type up the following check list and attach it to the inside of the
hot water heater door.
WARNING! BEFORE TURNING INVERTER ON:
1) Switch off front roof A/C
2) Select LPG on Dometic Refrigerator
3) Switch off Professional Dynamics Converter
4) Do not exceed 2000 Watt load on Xantrex:
a) Microwave = ???? watts
b) Coffee Maker = ???? watts
c) Toaster = ???? watts
d) Etc
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Thursday, 13 May 2010 3:08 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy
Rob,
You definitely don't want the converter on the inverter buss -- unless
you've got that perpetual motion thing worked out. If there's a spare
breaker position on the #1 buss, just move the converter there.
Otherwise, at the risk of further complication, you might consider adding
still another relay which would close only when the #1 buss is active to
provide power to the converter from the #2 buss.
The refrigerator will probably be around a 600W draw, so you should probably
put it under the same arrangement as the converter.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84285 is a reply to message #84263] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 20:58 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
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Rob,
The checklist should work -- for YOU.
If you do happen to leave the converter connected, it shouldn't hurt
anything but your battery supply time: The inverter should power the
converter while the converter is charging the battery until the wasted
energy in the two of them drop the battery voltage below the inverter's drop
out voltage. Not really the best use of battery power, but since you know
that, check away. :-)
Ken H.
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Ken,
>
> If I leave the PD on will it damage anything or just draw the max power of
> 60 watts?
>
> I'd like to follow the KISS principle and wire the output of the Xantrex
> into the Wall Outlets through the Iota and handle the amp draw with a check
> list. The Xantrex is under the passenger side bed on top of the hot water
> heater. It's easy to get to through the hot water heater access door.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=31266
>
> I will type up the following check list and attach it to the inside of the
> hot water heater door.
>
> WARNING! BEFORE TURNING INVERTER ON:
>
> 1) Switch off front roof A/C
> 2) Select LPG on Dometic Refrigerator
> 3) Switch off Professional Dynamics Converter
> 4) Do not exceed 2000 Watt load on Xantrex:
> a) Microwave = ???? watts
> b) Coffee Maker = ???? watts
> c) Toaster = ???? watts
> d) Etc
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
> Sent: Thursday, 13 May 2010 3:08 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy
>
> Rob,
>
> You definitely don't want the converter on the inverter buss -- unless
> you've got that perpetual motion thing worked out. If there's a spare
> breaker position on the #1 buss, just move the converter there.
>
> Otherwise, at the risk of further complication, you might consider adding
> still another relay which would close only when the #1 buss is active to
> provide power to the converter from the #2 buss.
>
> The refrigerator will probably be around a 600W draw, so you should
> probably
> put it under the same arrangement as the converter.
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Generator-ShoreLine-Thingy [message #84303 is a reply to message #84177] |
Wed, 12 May 2010 22:39 |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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| Rick Denney wrote on Wed, 12 May 2010 05:44 |
Remember that the 240VAC in U.S. circuitry is split-phase--it come from two legs that are 120VAC sine waves that are out of phase to provide 240VAC RMS between them. 240VAC in 'Stralia and in the UK is 240VAC single phase--not the same.
Rick "avoiding the mixing of phases is the main purpose of transfer switches" Denney
|
Sorry to disagree with you Rick, but the system we use here in the US, in homes, is a single phase center taped neutral and ground system. It is not a two phase system or a split phase system. The primary (high voltage side) of the transformer that the power company uses is connected with two wires which makes it single phase. They typically use a primary voltage of 4000 to 15000 volts. Often the transformer primary is attached to a 3 phase system, but each house only taps one of the three phases. In my home here in Idaho, the power company has a 3 phase system which goes up the river. I am on the "river phase", there is a "center phase" and a "mountain phase". That is the way I report a power outage to them. I say the "river phase is out" and they know something about which wire may be down. Often I may be out, and my neighbors are not, as their transformer is on a different wire of the original 3 phase system.
On the secondary side of the power company's transformer the winding is taped in the center, which becomes the neutral wire, and is also used as the system ground at one point in the residence. Between the neutral and one of the end wires you get 120 volts, single phase power. Between the neutral and the other end of the center taped winding you also get 120 volts, single phase power. Between the two ends of the secondary winding you get 240 volts, still single phase. The ends of the transformer and what we call the "hot" wires are properly called "legs" of the system, as in there are two hot legs, and one neutral leg. They are NOT phases, and are not two different phases. It is not a two phase system. The legs are not out of phase with each other.
So, when you use a 240 volt appliance, you are connecting to the two outer legs of the secondary of the transformer, and you get 240 volt, single phase power. When you use a 120 volt appliance, you are using half the transformer winding, but it is still single phase power.
I am not trying to be pedantic or obscure here, but I had to dispute the fact that we in the US use a 2 phase system or a split phase system. We do not.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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