Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again (witnessed the same handling aberration accident again)
| My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81129] |
Mon, 19 April 2010 20:53  |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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I know that FWD is what makes the TZE the TZE and we all know the handling quirks it can have if not all just set up right, but this applies to the passenger car automotive side of things. I witness the same accident scenario again and had to do the 'NASCAR drive through it' and my XJ and I escaped unharmed. First time was on the 405 watching a Japanese FWD car (Altima???) where the guy over corrected the wheel on bone dry pavement and on the 3rd oscillation ate the center wall HARD, VERY HARD. I drove around that one. Then this weekend Sat at noon in Chicago while I was coming from a work location downtown, on bone dry pavement a GrandAm gets drifty and too close to a cab minivan (on cell phone??) looks up and over corrects. One jerk right, second jerk left starting to loose it and on the magic 3rd swing its gone and burning tires sideways. I went down left a bit got around it and watched the NASCAR behind me as all lanes on I90 stopped. I don't think anyone hit anyone somehow as I didn't hear 'that sound'. I first experienced this aberration in the early 90s in Orlando in a new 2nd gen FWD Taurus rental car. I noticed that any sudden steering input would translate into EXTREME YAW but the car would basicly stay where it was, just YAW. I relized how scarry and twitchy this car was so I wanted to get a feel for where the limit was so I would be within the SOA. It was so easy to get out of the SOA it was crazy. Even though I was 'testing' in a conscious manner and being totally aware of the 'test' and supposedly knew what I was doing, just 2 sharp steering inputs would get the thing where you almost could not recover it (ask me how I know). I can't immagine how fast you could loose it if you were tired, an inexperienced driver, or on wet road or using a cell phone. (luckily at the time the 2nd gen Taurus came out cell phones were rare by comparison) This type of handling is nothing like any of the RWDs I grew up driving, big Buicks and the like, where the handling was very linear and it was really hard to get into trouble like this. Maybe they were not as "crisp" in handling but I would say they certainly handled better if the defenition for better handling is maintaining full control and not crashing. Anyway I would think that even the Corvair would handle better in this type of scenario than what passes as acceptable in these FWD cars they sell with these odd handling aberrations.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81172 is a reply to message #81129] |
Tue, 20 April 2010 07:55  |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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my experience with this has to do with torque steer. if you jerk the wheel and hit the gas the steering wheel will pull further in the direction you turned it. you force it back the other way and it over steers in that direction. fwd handles much better with less power.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81193 is a reply to message #81191] |
Tue, 20 April 2010 10:15 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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You are twisted Mike!
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 19 April 2010 18:53
>> I know that FWD is what makes the TZE the TZE and we all know the handling quirks it can have if not all just set up right, but this applies to the passenger car automotive side of things. I witness the same accident scenario again and had to do the 'NASCAR drive through it' and my XJ and I escaped unharmed. First time was on the 405 watching a Japanese FWD car (Altima???) where the guy over corrected the wheel on bone dry pavement and on the 3rd oscillation ate the center wall HARD, VERY HARD. I drove around that one. Then this weekend Sat at noon in Chicago while I was coming from a work location downtown, on bone dry pavement a GrandAm gets drifty and too close to a cab minivan (on cell phone??) looks up and over corrects. One jerk right, second jerk left starting to loose it and on the magic 3rd swing its gone and burning tires sideways. ...
>
>
> Sounds to me like someone didn't follow his tire guys advice and put the best tires on the rear!
>
> .
> ..
> ... I "had" to open that can of worms again! :twisted:
> --
> Mike Miller
> `73 26' X Painted D.
> `78 23' Birchaven
> Hillsboro, OR
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81197 is a reply to message #81193] |
Tue, 20 April 2010 10:33 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Too many "jerks" attached to the steering wheels!
* Mac Macdonald *
* Oklahoma City *
** "Money Pit" **
* '76 ex - P.B. *
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:15:41 -0700
> From: botiemad11@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again
>
> You are twisted Mike!
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 19 April 2010 18:53
> >> I know that FWD is what makes the TZE the TZE and we all know the handling quirks it can have if not all just set up right, but this applies to the passenger car automotive side of things. I witness the same accident scenario again and had to do the 'NASCAR drive through it' and my XJ and I escaped unharmed. First time was on the 405 watching a Japanese FWD car (Altima???) where the guy over corrected the wheel on bone dry pavement and on the 3rd oscillation ate the center wall HARD, VERY HARD. I drove around that one. Then this weekend Sat at noon in Chicago while I was coming from a work location downtown, on bone dry pavement a GrandAm gets drifty and too close to a cab minivan (on cell phone??) looks up and over corrects. One jerk right, second jerk left starting to loose it and on the magic 3rd swing its gone and burning tires sideways. ...
> >
> >
> > Sounds to me like someone didn't follow his tire guys advice and put the best tires on the rear!
> >
> > .
> > ..
> > ... I "had" to open that can of worms again! :twisted:
> > --
> > Mike Miller
> > `73 26' X Painted D.
> > `78 23' Birchaven
> > Hillsboro, OR
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > List Information and Subscription Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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| Re: My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81225 is a reply to message #81129] |
Tue, 20 April 2010 15:51 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 19 April 2010 21:53 |
I know that FWD is what makes the TZE the TZE and we all know the handling quirks it can have if not all just set up right, but this applies to the passenger car automotive side of things. I witness the same accident scenario again and had to do the 'NASCAR drive through it' and my XJ and I escaped unharmed. First time was on the 405 watching a Japanese FWD car (Altima???) where the guy over corrected the wheel on bone dry pavement and on the 3rd oscillation ate the center wall HARD, VERY HARD. I drove around that one. Then this weekend Sat at noon in Chicago while I was coming from a work location downtown, on bone dry pavement a GrandAm gets drifty and too close to a cab minivan (on cell phone??) looks up and over corrects. One jerk right, second jerk left starting to loose it and on the magic 3rd swing its gone and burning tires sideways. I went down left a bit got around it and watched the NASCAR behind me as all lanes on I90 stopped. I don't think anyone hit anyone somehow as I didn't hear 'that sound'. I first experienced this aberration in the early 90s in Orlando in a new 2nd gen FWD Taurus rental car. I noticed that any sudden steering input would translate into EXTREME YAW but the car would basicly stay where it was, just YAW. I relized how scarry and twitchy this car was so I wanted to get a feel for where the limit was so I would be within the SOA. It was so easy to get out of the SOA it was crazy. Even though I was 'testing' in a conscious manner and being totally aware of the 'test' and supposedly knew what I was doing, just 2 sharp steering inputs would get the thing where you almost could not recover it (ask me how I know). I can't immagine how fast you could loose it if you were tired, an inexperienced driver, or on wet road or using a cell phone. (luckily at the time the 2nd gen Taurus came out cell phones were rare by comparison) This type of handling is nothing like any of the RWDs I grew up driving, big Buicks and the like, where the handling was very linear and it was really hard to get into trouble like this. Maybe they were not as "crisp" in handling but I would say they certainly handled better if the defenition for better handling is maintaining full control and not crashing. Anyway I would think that even the Corvair would handle better in this type of scenario than what passes as acceptable in these FWD cars they sell with these odd handling aberrations.
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John,
You are making the rash assumption that modern drivers actually know how to drive. It isn't a case of FWD vs RWD or understeer of oversteer, it is a case of being trained to drive and then practicing what you were taught.
Case in Point:
In Michigan (it snows here Every Year) the first snow fall is often referred to as the Magic Snow
- Because -
It falls and the brains of many drivers just Disappear! (Bra-Da-Bum)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81232 is a reply to message #81229] |
Tue, 20 April 2010 16:58 |
shawnee
Messages: 422
Registered: February 2004
Location: NC
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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[quote
I remember back when I was about 14 in Michigan my Dad took me to a
local lake which would freeze with about 6" of ice in the wintertime.
He had me drive on the ice and while going at speed had me turn the
wheel all the way to one side and when the car would start to slide
sideways he showed me how to turn the wheel in the direction of the
rear slide. It didn't take look to learn how to get the car out of a
slide.
I feel that this has saved my life a few times. I remember once when
driving a car in NJ on I-80 just west of NYC where two cars in front
of me suddenly slid sideways. I was able to swerve between the two of
them and straighten out and continue down the highway while they
crashed into each other. Another time in Michigan a car spun out in
front of me and I was able to swerve my motorhome on the ice until it
also started to move sideways and then I corrected and went straight
down the outer lane around the car that was still spinning.
I don't think today's average driver has ever had this type of
training and probably never will.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Santa Fe, NM
[quote]}
When you grow up in the hills and mountains of WV with crooked roads and snow on the roads a good part of the year, handling skids like this is a normal reaction.
Gene Dotson
74 Canyonlands
www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81315 is a reply to message #81260] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 10:19 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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When I see police cars going to FWD's Then I'll become a believer! FWD was
just a way for the automakers to save weight and better improve gas mileage
and in the process converted countless minds that they were doing it
right!!
Yes, they may have better traction in snow going up a hill, but as for
handling, RWD can out handle any day. If you drive anywhere except up
hills......you figure it out....
Today's 'preaching' from NS
Mike
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 11:09 PM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> When I took Driver Ed in high school in the winter of
> '54 back home in the snowbelt of western New York, I
> had quite a few miles more under my butt than the other
> students in my class. Our instructor had me take our
> cheap Dodge 4-door with three-on-the-tree up a winding
> and wide brick-paved parkway on the snow. He told me
> to put it into a skid to demonstrate what to do. I did
> a back and forth fishtail for about a hundred yards in
> the curves. I think a couple of girl student drivers
> in the car came close to messing their undies.
>
> I still hate front-wheel drive. They will start up
> better than RWD, but when it comes time to turn, the
> front wheels tend to just plow straight ahead.
>
>
> * Mac Macdonald *
> * Oklahoma City *
> ** "Money Pit" **
> * '76 ex - P.B. *
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > From: shawnee@charter.net
> > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:58:32 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again
> >
> > [quote
> >
> > I remember back when I was about 14 in Michigan my Dad took me to a
> > local lake which would freeze with about 6" of ice in the wintertime.
> > He had me drive on the ice and while going at speed had me turn the
> > wheel all the way to one side and when the car would start to slide
> > sideways he showed me how to turn the wheel in the direction of the
> > rear slide. It didn't take look to learn how to get the car out of a
> > slide.
> >
> > I feel that this has saved my life a few times. I remember once when
> > driving a car in NJ on I-80 just west of NYC where two cars in front
> > of me suddenly slid sideways. I was able to swerve between the two of
> > them and straighten out and continue down the highway while they
> > crashed into each other. Another time in Michigan a car spun out in
> > front of me and I was able to swerve my motorhome on the ice until it
> > also started to move sideways and then I corrected and went straight
> > down the outer lane around the car that was still spinning.
> >
> > I don't think today's average driver has ever had this type of
> > training and probably never will.
> >
> > Emery Stora
> > 77 Kingsley
> > Santa Fe, NM
> > [quote]}
> > When you grow up in the hills and mountains of WV with crooked roads and
> snow on the roads a good part of the year, handling skids like this is a
> normal reaction.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gene Dotson
> > 74 Canyonlands
> > www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements
> >
> > New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81318 is a reply to message #81315] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 10:31 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Most of the fWd vehicles just don't have enough room in the back seat
for transport. The absolute best cop car we ever had (while I was
active) was the Caprice. When Chevy quit making them, we were forced
to switch to Fords and they were a far cry from the performance we got
from teh Chevys. Those LT1 engines seemed to go forever.
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Kingsley Coach <kingsleygmc@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I see police cars going to FWD's Then I'll become a believer! FWD was
> just a way for the automakers to save weight and better improve gas mileage
> and in the process converted countless minds that they were doing it
> right!!
> Yes, they may have better traction in snow going up a hill, but as for
> handling, RWD can out handle any day. If you drive anywhere except up
> hills......you figure it out....
>
> Today's 'preaching' from NS
> Mike
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 11:09 PM, D C *Mac* Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> When I took Driver Ed in high school in the winter of
>> '54 back home in the snowbelt of western New York, I
>> had quite a few miles more under my butt than the other
>> students in my class. Our instructor had me take our
>> cheap Dodge 4-door with three-on-the-tree up a winding
>> and wide brick-paved parkway on the snow. He told me
>> to put it into a skid to demonstrate what to do. I did
>> a back and forth fishtail for about a hundred yards in
>> the curves. I think a couple of girl student drivers
>> in the car came close to messing their undies.
>>
>> I still hate front-wheel drive. They will start up
>> better than RWD, but when it comes time to turn, the
>> front wheels tend to just plow straight ahead.
>>
>>
>> * Mac Macdonald *
>> * Oklahoma City *
>> ** "Money Pit" **
>> * '76 ex - P.B. *
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> > From: shawnee@charter.net
>> > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:58:32 -0500
>> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again
>> >
>> > [quote
>> >
>> > I remember back when I was about 14 in Michigan my Dad took me to a
>> > local lake which would freeze with about 6" of ice in the wintertime.
>> > He had me drive on the ice and while going at speed had me turn the
>> > wheel all the way to one side and when the car would start to slide
>> > sideways he showed me how to turn the wheel in the direction of the
>> > rear slide. It didn't take look to learn how to get the car out of a
>> > slide.
>> >
>> > I feel that this has saved my life a few times. I remember once when
>> > driving a car in NJ on I-80 just west of NYC where two cars in front
>> > of me suddenly slid sideways. I was able to swerve between the two of
>> > them and straighten out and continue down the highway while they
>> > crashed into each other. Another time in Michigan a car spun out in
>> > front of me and I was able to swerve my motorhome on the ice until it
>> > also started to move sideways and then I corrected and went straight
>> > down the outer lane around the car that was still spinning.
>> >
>> > I don't think today's average driver has ever had this type of
>> > training and probably never will.
>> >
>> > Emery Stora
>> > 77 Kingsley
>> > Santa Fe, NM
>> > [quote]}
>> > When you grow up in the hills and mountains of WV with crooked roads and
>> snow on the roads a good part of the year, handling skids like this is a
>> normal reaction.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Gene Dotson
>> > 74 Canyonlands
>> > www.bdub.net/Motorhome_Enhancements
>> >
>> > New Windows and Aluminum Radiators
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Beaton
> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
> Antigonish, NS
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81336 is a reply to message #81335] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 12:32 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Welllllll....<g>
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:26 PM, scott cowden <scottyforsail@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
> > When I see police cars going to FWD's Then I'll become a believer! FWD
> was
> > just a way for the automakers to save weight and better improve gas
> mileage
> > and in the process converted countless minds that they were doing it
> > right!!
>
>
> > Today's 'preaching' from NS
> > Mike
>
>
>
> Ford Taurus and Chev impala's have been used for police service for years.
> GM is reintroducing the Caprice as a 9C1 police package in 2011. it will be
> FWD.
>
>
>
> Frankly, the debate between the merits of front and rear wheel drive has
> more to do with psychological resistance to change than the particular
> merits of one design or another.
>
>
>
> I have had cars of both drive systems and put many, many miles on them both
> and beleive that as long as the driver adapts driving style to meet the
> abilities of the car, most of these problem are minimal.
>
>
>
> Just my, 'get over it,' rant for the day.
>
> Scott '74 Glacier Orillia, ON, Canada
>
>
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Got a phone? Get Hotmail & Messenger for mobile!
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724464
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
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>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81360 is a reply to message #81318] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 18:09 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
Considering your email address you wouldn't be biased at all would you? ;-)
Bo tie mad 11 @ gmail.com
Now to let you in on a bit of humor; the first time I saw Steve's email
address I read it as:
Botie mad 11 @ gmail.com! Which I thought was BOOTIE! :-)
Now that's a far cry from what Steve intended, that's for sure! ;-)
Regards,
Rob "Ford guy" Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven Ferguson
Sent: Thursday, 22 April 2010 1:32 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again
Most of the fWd vehicles just don't have enough room in the back seat
for transport. The absolute best cop car we ever had (while I was
active) was the Caprice. When Chevy quit making them, we were forced
to switch to Fords and they were a far cry from the performance we got
from teh Chevys. Those LT1 engines seemed to go forever.
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81361 is a reply to message #81360] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 18:16 |
Gary Worobec
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005
Karma: -1
|
Senior Member |
|
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When I saw it and he was ex-Navy I thought it was boatiemad@gmail.com and
that he had a spelling problem.
Thanks
Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again
> Steve,
>
> Considering your email address you wouldn't be biased at all would you?
> ;-)
>
> Bo tie mad 11 @ gmail.com
>
> Now to let you in on a bit of humor; the first time I saw Steve's email
> address I read it as:
>
> Botie mad 11 @ gmail.com! Which I thought was BOOTIE! :-)
>
> Now that's a far cry from what Steve intended, that's for sure! ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob "Ford guy" Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven Ferguson
> Sent: Thursday, 22 April 2010 1:32 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again
>
> Most of the fWd vehicles just don't have enough room in the back seat
> for transport. The absolute best cop car we ever had (while I was
> active) was the Caprice. When Chevy quit making them, we were forced
> to switch to Fords and they were a far cry from the performance we got
> from teh Chevys. Those LT1 engines seemed to go forever.
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81393 is a reply to message #81129] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 21:29 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Well the consensus on what I've read here makes me at least know I'm not imagining things and I'm not crazy. The same instantaneous lost of control, out of the blue accidents I witnessed unfold led me to spout off on this.
A guy I work with teaches at NASA road racing and we plan an outing in June. A good chance to learn on the track and classroom with an instructor. I have an 87 GTA that should be a car well suited for this and it's just collecting dust now.
Most cops loved the LT1 B body cars and the Ford Cop Interceptors were a step down in the stones dept but at least were meaty and predictable. (never mind the shocks poking the fuel tanks in rear impact) The police forces that had to go to FWD cars generally didn't like them in highspeed situations. Hence a lot went to Tahoe type units even during high fuel cost era and though they had the higher CG. The ".1 percent of the time" has far been exceeded just by the 2 wrecks on dry pavement I witnessed and I really think there is more to this phenomenon of sudden loss of control (feedback loop oscillation loss of control) than meets the eye.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: My rant on 'FWD cars are wrong' again [message #81404 is a reply to message #81225] |
Wed, 21 April 2010 23:12 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Or the simple fact that modern drivers consider controlling the vehicle secondary to whatever else they may be doing. Those of us who can drive a manual transmission seem to have a better understanding of how to actually control a car, such as like Steve said, nurse a car home with no brakes, etc. Today's kids merely are at the tiller of a two ton weapon, and any "accident" is never their fault, but some other drivers or the manufacturers fault.
| mcolie wrote on Tue, 20 April 2010 13:51 |
| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 19 April 2010 21:53 |
I know that FWD is what makes the TZE the TZE and we all know the handling quirks it can have if not all just set up right, but this applies to the passenger car automotive side of things. I witness the same accident scenario again and had to do the 'NASCAR drive through it' and my XJ and I escaped unharmed. First time was on the 405 watching a Japanese FWD car (Altima???) where the guy over corrected the wheel on bone dry pavement and on the 3rd oscillation ate the center wall HARD, VERY HARD. I drove around that one. Then this weekend Sat at noon in Chicago while I was coming from a work location downtown, on bone dry pavement a GrandAm gets drifty and too close to a cab minivan (on cell phone??) looks up and over corrects. One jerk right, second jerk left starting to loose it and on the magic 3rd swing its gone and burning tires sideways. I went down left a bit got around it and watched the NASCAR behind me as all lanes on I90 stopped. I don't think anyone hit anyone somehow as I didn't hear 'that sound'. I first experienced this aberration in the early 90s in Orlando in a new 2nd gen FWD Taurus rental car. I noticed that any sudden steering input would translate into EXTREME YAW but the car would basicly stay where it was, just YAW. I relized how scarry and twitchy this car was so I wanted to get a feel for where the limit was so I would be within the SOA. It was so easy to get out of the SOA it was crazy. Even though I was 'testing' in a conscious manner and being totally aware of the 'test' and supposedly knew what I was doing, just 2 sharp steering inputs would get the thing where you almost could not recover it (ask me how I know). I can't immagine how fast you could loose it if you were tired, an inexperienced driver, or on wet road or using a cell phone. (luckily at the time the 2nd gen Taurus came out cell phones were rare by comparison) This type of handling is nothing like any of the RWDs I grew up driving, big Buicks and the like, where the handling was very linear and it was really hard to get into trouble like this. Maybe they were not as "crisp" in handling but I would say they certainly handled better if the defenition for better handling is maintaining full control and not crashing. Anyway I would think that even the Corvair would handle better in this type of scenario than what passes as acceptable in these FWD cars they sell with these odd handling aberrations.
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John,
You are making the rash assumption that modern drivers actually know how to drive. It isn't a case of FWD vs RWD or understeer of oversteer, it is a case of being trained to drive and then practicing what you were taught.
Case in Point:
In Michigan (it snows here Every Year) the first snow fall is often referred to as the Magic Snow
- Because -
It falls and the brains of many drivers just Disappear! (Bra-Da-Bum)
Matt
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-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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