Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] battery question
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79456 is a reply to message #79442] |
Tue, 06 April 2010 15:01   |
idrob
Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Ed Wilks wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:33 |
Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a regular lead acid and a gell battery.
Ed Wilks
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Some of the best battery information I have seen is here:
http://janwp.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JANWP&Category_Code=JWP12VBAT1
I am not sure the real answer to life ratings is easy to find, most battery life is determined by how well they are charged, and maintained, and what kind of service is expected of them. Therefore finding one type has a longer life than another is kind of hard to do.
Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79539 is a reply to message #79442] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 08:49 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ed Wilks <eganddj@hotmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a
regular lead acid and a gell battery.
Ed,
I have a Statpower 40 and after installing it, I installed new
batteries. Workaholics from Interstate. I removed them after 8 years
because we were headed to GMCMI, South Dakota and I wanted fresh
batteries just in case. They were working just fine then and that may
be because I was so careful about their maintenance. The charger unit
also had an "Equalize" mode and I used it religiously every 60 days or
so. At the same time I replaced them, I replaced the engine battery
with an Optima gell type. I swapped that out at the same time and put
it in my car hauler using a Harbor Freight small solar panel to
maintain it. I sold the trailer last year and the guy is still using
that battery to power the winch. It is now 13-14 years old. Over the
years, while storing the GMC in El Cajon, their maintenance man
unplugged the coach several times to use the outlet, and failed to
plug it back in again. At least three times this resulted in the
Optima being completely dead by the time I caught it. I know that
runs contrary to what they say about never letting a gell cell type go
dead, but it correctly relates my personal experience with the thing.
Fast forward now to the GMC and I still have the same arrangement
but now I am running a combiner. Maybe someone here knows what will
happen if I use the "Equalizer" (desulfating) mode with the combiner
hooked up.
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ed Wilks <eganddj@hotmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a
regular lead acid and a gell battery.
> _________________________________________________________________
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79542 is a reply to message #79539] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 09:03 |
Nelson Wright
Messages: 147
Registered: May 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
I thought that the "Optima" batteries were AGM not gell?
Nelson Wright
Orlando, Fl.
On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ed Wilks <eganddj@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a
> regular lead acid and a gell battery.
>
> Ed,
> I have a Statpower 40 and after installing it, I installed new
> batteries. Workaholics from Interstate. I removed them after 8 years
> because we were headed to GMCMI, South Dakota and I wanted fresh
> batteries just in case. They were working just fine then and that may
> be because I was so careful about their maintenance. The charger unit
> also had an "Equalize" mode and I used it religiously every 60 days or
> so. At the same time I replaced them, I replaced the engine battery
> with an Optima gell type. I swapped that out at the same time and put
> it in my car hauler using a Harbor Freight small solar panel to
> maintain it. I sold the trailer last year and the guy is still using
> that battery to power the winch. It is now 13-14 years old. Over the
> years, while storing the GMC in El Cajon, their maintenance man
> unplugged the coach several times to use the outlet, and failed to
> plug it back in again. At least three times this resulted in the
> Optima being completely dead by the time I caught it. I know that
> runs contrary to what they say about never letting a gell cell type go
> dead, but it correctly relates my personal experience with the thing.
> Fast forward now to the GMC and I still have the same arrangement
> but now I am running a combiner. Maybe someone here knows what will
> happen if I use the "Equalizer" (desulfating) mode with the combiner
> hooked up.
>
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ed Wilks <eganddj@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a
> regular lead acid and a gell battery.
>
>
>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
>> inbox.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79549 is a reply to message #79442] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 10:22 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Ed Wilks wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 13:33 |
Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a regular lead acid and a gell battery.
Ed Wilks
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Ed,
This is an anecdotal account of my experience.
In my boat work I have seen similar life of all types, but the actual usable life is very dependent on treatment and maintenance. The Gel and AGM out there are more likely to be old than the regular you will find, but that is because the regular that were maintained as required don't end up in the scrap battery pile as soon as all the others.
Summary for those that care:
A well maintained battery will go between 5 and 10 seasons until it is at 80% of rated capacity almost regardless of battery type but very dependent on battery manufacturer (Trojan are great, but the co$t is an $erious i$$ue.)
Three kinds of LA (lead Acid) batteries:
Flooded Cell (both serviceable and maintenance proof)
Gel Cel (an LA battery with non-liquid acid and usually valve vented.
AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat- an LA with the acid in fiberglass blotter between the plates)
FCs have the most sense-of-humor for over charging, but the latches on the maintenance proof version must be broken so the electrolyte level can be checked regularly.
AGMs have the best ability to survive deep discharging if not left flat for too long.
Gel Cel seem to be kind of between the two in all respects.
The current prices of GelCel (typically FC*2) are not likely to be cost effective unless it is an application were they are better suited. If doing the required maintenance is a serious issue, that might be considered.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79554 is a reply to message #79542] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 11:00 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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You are correct. My error Nelson. I consider them both the same if
they're not lead acid I guess.
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Nelson Wright <f25ccapt@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Steve,
> I thought that the "Optima" batteries were AGM not gell?
>
> Nelson Wright
> Orlando, Fl.
>
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ed Wilks <eganddj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a
>> regular lead acid and a gell battery.
>>
>> Ed,
>> I have a Statpower 40 and after installing it, I installed new
>> batteries. Workaholics from Interstate. I removed them after 8 years
>> because we were headed to GMCMI, South Dakota and I wanted fresh
>> batteries just in case. They were working just fine then and that may
>> be because I was so careful about their maintenance. The charger unit
>> also had an "Equalize" mode and I used it religiously every 60 days or
>> so. At the same time I replaced them, I replaced the engine battery
>> with an Optima gell type. I swapped that out at the same time and put
>> it in my car hauler using a Harbor Freight small solar panel to
>> maintain it. I sold the trailer last year and the guy is still using
>> that battery to power the winch. It is now 13-14 years old. Over the
>> years, while storing the GMC in El Cajon, their maintenance man
>> unplugged the coach several times to use the outlet, and failed to
>> plug it back in again. At least three times this resulted in the
>> Optima being completely dead by the time I caught it. I know that
>> runs contrary to what they say about never letting a gell cell type go
>> dead, but it correctly relates my personal experience with the thing.
>> Fast forward now to the GMC and I still have the same arrangement
>> but now I am running a combiner. Maybe someone here knows what will
>> happen if I use the "Equalizer" (desulfating) mode with the combiner
>> hooked up.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Ed Wilks <eganddj@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any info on the different life expectancy between a
>> regular lead acid and a gell battery.
>>
>>
>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
>>> inbox.
>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Ferguson
>> '76 EII
>> Sierra Vista, AZ
>> Urethane bushing source
>> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79563 is a reply to message #79539] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 12:14 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
I'm not very familiar with the operation of desulfators, but I understand
they just send high voltage pulses to the battery. My understanding of the
Yandina combiners is that they close almost instantaneously, but that they
stay closed for 30 S. after the voltage drops below 13.4. In that case,
combiner should work just fine. However, if the desulfator pulse is too
short to turn on the combiner, the isolated battery won't be exercised.
Your really should send Andina Foster that question using the form at the
very end of http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm
Incidentally, for those with AGM or Gel batteries, you should probably read
this: http://www.yandina.com/mixedbattery.htm
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
> ... Maybe someone here knows what will
> happen if I use the "Equalizer" (desulfating) mode with the combiner
> hooked up.
>
>
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GMCnet mailing list
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http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79570 is a reply to message #79549] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 13:13 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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OK Battery Gurus, I have a question.
I have a small AGM starting battery in my 1985 Honda 250 scooter. In February I found the battery to be dead even though I had it on one of my maintainers on it all winter. The battery read 4.7 volts.
I took it out and brought it home for charging. I put it on a 2 amp charger for 2 days. It still read 4.7 volts. Out of desperation I upped the charger setting to the 6 amps setting. The next morning I found the battery warm and after removing the charger found the battery sitting at 13.75 volts. I let the battery sit off charge overnight to remove any surface charge and found the battery sitting at 13.2 volts. I reinstalled the battery in my scooter about a month ago. Every time I check it now it still reads (with a different meter) 13.2 volts. I rode the scooter about 40 miles after dark yesterday and had no problems. The battery performed flawlessly every time I stopped and started the scooter. I did not check the voltage last night when I parked it.
I am really confused. I thought AGM batteries were still lead acid type and should put out about 2.1 volts per cell (12.6 for the whole battery) when fully charged. What is different here with a AGM battery that I do not understand?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79576 is a reply to message #79570] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 14:04 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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It is my understanding (open to question, of course)
that AGM batteries are FAR more tolerant of big-time
discharges than standard wet cell unsealed lead-acid
batteries.
Be happy that you have gotten some more life out of it.
Resolve to buy and use one of the small .75A Battery
Tenders at all time when you aren't going to be using
your scooter (or any other device). Stick with those
that actually ARE "Battery Tenders." They are controlled
electronically and won't boil your battery dry. I keep
them on each of our Harleys, the genset starting battery
in my boat, my emergency power generator, and one truck
which seems to have a small parasitic battery drain.
73 - Mac, K2GKK
* D C "Mac" Macdonald *
** Oklahoma City, OK **
* "Money Pit" 76 x-PB *
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: n9cv@comcast.net
> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:13:55 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] battery question
>
>
>
> OK Battery Gurus, I have a question.
>
> I have a small AGM starting battery in my 1985 Honda 250 scooter. In February I found the battery to be dead even though I had it on one of my maintainers on it all winter. The battery read 4.7 volts.
>
> I took it out and brought it home for charging. I put it on a 2 amp charger for 2 days. It still read 4.7 volts. Out of desperation I upped the charger setting to the 6 amps setting. The next morning I found the battery warm and after removing the charger found the battery sitting at 13.75 volts. I let the battery sit off charge overnight to remove any surface charge and found the battery sitting at 13.2 volts. I reinstalled the battery in my scooter about a month ago. Every time I check it now it still reads (with a different meter) 13.2 volts. I rode the scooter about 40 miles after dark yesterday and had no problems. The battery performed flawlessly every time I stopped and started the scooter. I did not check the voltage last night when I parked it.
>
> I am really confused. I thought AGM batteries were still lead acid type and should put out about 2.1 volts per cell (12.6 for the whole battery) when fully charged. What is different here with a AGM battery that I do not understand?
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79583 is a reply to message #79576] |
Wed, 07 April 2010 15:05 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
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| k2gkk wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 14:04 |
It is my understanding (open to question, of course)
that AGM batteries are FAR more tolerant of big-time
discharges than standard wet cell unsealed lead-acid
batteries.
Be happy that you have gotten some more life out of it.
Resolve to buy and use one of the small .75A Battery
Tenders at all time when you aren't going to be using
your scooter (or any other device). Stick with those
that actually ARE "Battery Tenders." They are controlled
electronically and won't boil your battery dry. I keep
them on each of our Harleys, the genset starting battery
in my boat, my emergency power generator, and one truck
which seems to have a small parasitic battery drain.
73 - Mac, K2GKK
* D C "Mac" Macdonald *
** Oklahoma City, OK **
* "Money Pit" 76 x-PB *
|
I have a bunch of those battery tenders around here. They are on every battery that I have stored for the winter or that are not used for an extended length of time.
2 garden tractors, my John Deer diesel tractor, 2 jet skis, 2 motorcycles, and my airplane all have them.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79700 is a reply to message #79563] |
Thu, 08 April 2010 08:11 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I knew it would be you who responded. I've send the infor to
Yandina and will post the results here when the answer. They have
always been tops in tech assist in the past and that probably is where
I should have gone in the first place.
Thanks again,
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Ken Henderson <ken0henderson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I'm not very familiar with the operation of desulfators, but I understand
> they just send high voltage pulses to the battery. My understanding of the
> Yandina combiners is that they close almost instantaneously, but that they
> stay closed for 30 S. after the voltage drops below 13.4. In that case,
> combiner should work just fine. However, if the desulfator pulse is too
> short to turn on the combiner, the isolated battery won't be exercised.
>
> Your really should send Andina Foster that question using the form at the
> very end of http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm
>
> Incidentally, for those with AGM or Gel batteries, you should probably read
> this: http://www.yandina.com/mixedbattery.htm
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> ... Maybe someone here knows what will
>> happen if I use the "Equalizer" (desulfating) mode with the combiner
>> hooked up.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79730 is a reply to message #79570] |
Thu, 08 April 2010 10:20 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Ken Burton wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 14:13 |
OK Battery Gurus, I have a question.
I have a small AGM starting battery in my 1985 Honda 250 scooter. In February I found the battery to be dead even though I had it on one of my maintainers on it all winter. The battery read 4.7 volts.
I took it out and brought it home for charging. I put it on a 2 amp charger for 2 days. It still read 4.7 volts. Out of desperation I upped the charger setting to the 6 amps setting. The next morning I found the battery warm and after removing the charger found the battery sitting at 13.75 volts. I let the battery sit off charge overnight to remove any surface charge and found the battery sitting at 13.2 volts. I reinstalled the battery in my scooter about a month ago. Every time I check it now it still reads (with a different meter) 13.2 volts. I rode the scooter about 40 miles after dark yesterday and had no problems. The battery performed flawlessly every time I stopped and started the scooter. I did not check the voltage last night when I parked it.
I am really confused. I thought AGM batteries were still lead acid type and should put out about 2.1 volts per cell (12.6 for the whole battery) when fully charged. What is different here with a AGM battery that I do not understand?
|
Ken,
AGM, GelCel and Flooded Lead Acid are all the same base chemistry. (That is the end of the discussion.)
Your understanding is correct but there is a little piece missing from your paragraph.
What does change is what can happen with the density of the acid electrolyte. It does not take much of a change of density of the electrolyte to change the terminal voltage. The 2.16 V/cell is for 1.260sg at 70*. Any battery can be charged to a higher density, but it will damage a flooded cell because the less pure lead will cause 1 - Out Gassing, 2 - Heating, 3 - Corrosion of plate matrix materials (this is the big issue with sulfate/sulfite). All of those are greatly reduced in an AGM as a result of the more pure lead that can be used because the plates are wedged tightly in the case during assembly. This is also why an AGM can be charged at higher rates and is less damaged than a flooded cell.
I suspect your scooter battery will settle down in the mid to high 12s with some use and time.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] battery question [message #79749 is a reply to message #79570] |
Thu, 08 April 2010 11:52 |
|
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It sounds like you boost charged the battery back to life. I just got a giant lifeline agm 8d battery and if it is ever sent into a deep cycle (below 50% charge) they recommend boost charging to bring it back. My battery can accept a charge up to 255 amps! Once its boosted to 90% most chargers will drop back to 13.6v and finish at that rate. Totally dead agms can be brought back like you did a constant 6-8 amp charge for an extended period of time. That batt will live for a while yet...
| Ken Burton wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 13:13 |
OK Battery Gurus, I have a question.
I have a small AGM starting battery in my 1985 Honda 250 scooter. In February I found the battery to be dead even though I had it on one of my maintainers on it all winter. The battery read 4.7 volts.
I took it out and brought it home for charging. I put it on a 2 amp charger for 2 days. It still read 4.7 volts. Out of desperation I upped the charger setting to the 6 amps setting. The next morning I found the battery warm and after removing the charger found the battery sitting at 13.75 volts. I let the battery sit off charge overnight to remove any surface charge and found the battery sitting at 13.2 volts. I reinstalled the battery in my scooter about a month ago. Every time I check it now it still reads (with a different meter) 13.2 volts. I rode the scooter about 40 miles after dark yesterday and had no problems. The battery performed flawlessly every time I stopped and started the scooter. I did not check the voltage last night when I parked it.
I am really confused. I thought AGM batteries were still lead acid type and should put out about 2.1 volts per cell (12.6 for the whole battery) when fully charged. What is different here with a AGM battery that I do not understand?
|
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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