Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » toyota coverup
| toyota coverup [message #73414] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 05:38  |
Rusty
Messages: 197
Registered: October 2005
Location: Philadelphia Pa
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interesting how Toyota definitly covered up all their defects. The gas pedal issue began in 2002 when they moved away from a mechanical (cable or linkage) connection between the drivers foot and the throttle, over to a computer controlled method using sensors. How much you want to bet the NTSB is now going to create a law forcing car manufacturers to retain the physical connection. Stupid to ever have moved away from it, in my opinion
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575055733096312238.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection
Rusty
75 Glenbrook
Philadelphia Pa
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73420 is a reply to message #73414] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 06:34  |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
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| Rusty wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 06:38 |
interesting how Toyota definitly covered up all their defects. The gas pedal issue began in 2002 when they moved away from a mechanical (cable or linkage) connection between the drivers foot and the throttle, over to a computer controlled method using sensors. How much you want to bet the NTSB is now going to create a law forcing car manufacturers to retain the physical connection. Stupid to ever have moved away from it, in my opinion
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575055733096312238.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection
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Rusty: all big trucks in the US have used the TPS (throttle position sensor) on computer controlled engines since 1988. In Europe you can buy a diesel car (BMW) that gets 80mpg, but not here, because EPA says it puts out more polution than a US model that gets 30mpg??? I think there is a lot more going on than we know...
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] toyota coverup [message #73421 is a reply to message #73414] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 06:42 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Rusty,
Are you aware that all modern airliners are fly by wire?
Boeing retains the column but Airbus have joy sticks.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Rusty
Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 2010 10:38 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] toyota coverup
interesting how Toyota definitly covered up all their defects. The gas pedal
issue began in 2002 when they moved away from a mechanical (cable or
linkage) connection between the drivers foot and the throttle, over to a
computer controlled method using sensors. How much you want to bet the NTSB
is now going to create a law forcing car manufacturers to retain the
physical connection. Stupid to ever have moved away from it, in my opinion
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575055733096312238.ht
ml?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEADNewsCollection
--
Rusty
75 Glenbrook
Philadelphia Pa
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73422 is a reply to message #73420] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 07:08 |
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Didn't you get your copy of the "TPS Report"?
John Ruff
Rusty: all big trucks in the US have used the TPS (throttle position sensor) on computer controlled engines since 1988. In Europe you can buy a diesel car (BMW) that gets 80mpg, but not here, because EPA says it puts out more polution than a US model that gets 30mpg??? I think there is a lot more going on than we know...[/quote]
John Ruff
Chandler, AZ
1975 Eleganza
WA3RIG
If I use ZDDP in a new car - will the tappets go flat?
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73427 is a reply to message #73414] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 08:18 |
Rusty
Messages: 197
Registered: October 2005
Location: Philadelphia Pa
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Rob yes I have know about fly by wire. Always made me nervous, but way different quality expectation for aircraft and way way more critical behavioral characteristics, makes more sense to have a computer do it. Like re-entry in the shuttle. I also wasnt aware american trucks have had throttle sensors since 88. I still think its dumb. For what, another .1% fuel economy? Arent E-brakes required not to be automated? Why not accelerator. Just my opinion.
Rusty
75 Glenbrook
Philadelphia Pa
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73428 is a reply to message #73427] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 09:02 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
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| Rusty wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 09:18 |
Rob yes I have know about fly by wire. Always made me nervous, but way different quality expectation for aircraft and way way more critical behavioral characteristics, makes more sense to have a computer do it. Like re-entry in the shuttle. I also wasnt aware american trucks have had throttle sensors since 88. I still think its dumb. For what, another .1% fuel economy? Arent E-brakes required not to be automated? Why not accelerator. Just my opinion.
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Rusty: actually big truck mpg avg went from 5mpg to 7mpg = 2/5? increase or 40%. Price of trucks went up, the oil Co`s raised the price of fuel while the shippers paid less. Even with fuel sur charges today I am hauling for .05 cents per mile less than I did in 1990.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73431 is a reply to message #73422] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 09:30 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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No, it had the wrong cover on it. 
According to Randy, regarding the Airbus, it is just "stick" no Joy. 
| John Ruff wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 06:08 |
Didn't you get your copy of the "TPS Report"?
John Ruff
Rusty: all big trucks in the US have used the TPS (throttle position sensor) on computer controlled engines since 1988. In Europe you can buy a diesel car (BMW) that gets 80mpg, but not here, because EPA says it puts out more polution than a US model that gets 30mpg??? I think there is a lot more going on than we know...
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[/quote]
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] toyota coverup [message #73446 is a reply to message #73414] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 11:44 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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Rusty writes...
> interesting how Toyota definitly covered up all their defects. The
> gas pedal issue began in 2002 when they moved away from a mechanical
> (cable or linkage) connection between the drivers foot and the
> throttle, over to a computer controlled method using sensors. How
> much you want to bet the NTSB is now going to create a law forcing
> car manufacturers to retain the physical connection. Stupid to ever
> have moved away from it, in my opinion
There is nothing wrong with drive-by-wire, but it depends on software.
When the problem with unintented acceleration came up, my gut reaction
was a software problem. They are acknowledging a software problem for
the Prius, but not for the unintended acceleration thing. For that,
they are blaming the accelerator pedal assembly. They would do a lot
to re-establish trust by producing a video for Youtube that would go
into detail explaining why the pedal is the problem, instead of
producing more "we're really, really, really, really sorry"
commercials. I'd much rather hear details from their engineers than
see their CEO bow.
That they have software issues is documented fact, though maybe not
related to this particular problem. Our 2004 Lexus has drive-by-wire,
and there were consistent complaints of an unresponsive pedal. Toyota
provided revised software, but would only install it as a warranty
item, and then only for people who complained. It wasn't completely
covered up, but Toyota was certainly not forthcoming about it.
The problem with software is that errors often hide, requiring a
particular and often inexplicable combination of events to become
apparent. Companies accustomed to making very solid physical machines
often have a cultural bias against software, and when they have to use
it, often act as though they are afraid of it. That makes them
unwilling to acknowledge software problems, especially when they are
not sure what's causing the problem. The size of a company has no
effect on software, and software teams are small even in the biggest
companies. I suspect that these have been issues with all
manufacturers to some extent. The American manufacturers just have a
better handle on how to deal with regulators.
Unintented acceleration can be a nightmare for a car company even with
mechanical throttles. Just ask Audi (or any mid-80's Audi 5000 former
owner, like, say, me). Audi never did conclusively determine what the
problem was in that situation, but if your floor mats are pinned to
the floor, then that Audi fiasco is the reason. It's also the reason
why your foot has to be on the brake before shifting out of park, and
the reason why Audis no longer have brake and gas pedals and the same
level (which drivers who know how to heel-toe love).
Rick "who owns three Toyotas, but only one with drive-by-wire" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73505 is a reply to message #73414] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 21:29 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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My parents in their 80s were GM GM GM forever and while I was out of town traded in a pristine Caddy on a Lexus (rebadged Camry) and with a weak trade in allowance to boot. Some cars/trucks feel right to me and fit my body size and posture to a T. My 97 Tahoe and 99 XJ are 2 such vehicles though each quite different in size. That Lexus is not. I cannot stand driving that car. The throttle feels so removed and disconnected from X input gives you X result. The car has the least freewheeling effect (foot off gas it slows down quickly even in O/D) which you would think would be the opposite for mileage reasons. The trans is non identifiably slippy (call it smooth-- no thanks)and there is a general total lack of road feel or groundedness which makes me never feel safe. The brake feel is spongy but grabby at the end of stop. Now I notice a kink (click) in the steering rack that needs to be addressed before the warranty expires as that won't be cheap. All cars have issues. Most mechanics when they see a certain brand pull up can tell you what it will have wrong before looking at it. Broken record. What upsets me is if this was a US car company with the sticky accel/ brake issues, we Americans would be all over their S^#$. But as a Japanese co. we seem more apt to forgive. Seems backwards to me. Take care of no 1 first. Where is Ralph Nader now??????? Maybe he could actually do some good by getting us the facts.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] toyota coverup [message #73509 is a reply to message #73505] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 21:53 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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John.
I feel that if we can get a Toyota that is totalled, I want to have a
bashing party and charge dollar a slam with a long sledge hammer and
have a press there to cover.
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 7:29 PM, John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> My parents in their 80s were GM GM GM forever and while I was out of town traded in a pristine Caddy on a Lexus (rebadged Camry) and with a weak trade in allowance to boot. Some cars/trucks feel right to me and fit my body size and posture to a T. My 97 Tahoe and 99 XJ are 2 such vehicles though each quite different in size. That Lexus is not. I cannot stand driving that car. The throttle feels so removed and disconnected from X input gives you X result. The car has the least freewheeling effect (foot off gas it slows down quickly even in O/D) which you would think would be the opposite for mileage reasons. The trans is non identifiably slippy (call it smooth-- no thanks)and there is a general total lack of road feel or groundedness which makes me never feel safe. The brake feel is spongy but grabby at the end of stop. Now I notice a kink (click) in the steering rack that needs to be addressed before the warranty expires as that won't be cheap. All cars have issues. Most mec
> hanics when they see a certain brand pull up can tell you what it will have wrong before looking at it. Broken record. What upsets me is if this was a US car company with the sticky accel/ brake issues, we Americans would be all over their S^#$. But as a Japanese co. we seem more apt to forgive. Seems backwards to me. Take care of no 1 first. Where is Ralph Nader now??????? Maybe he could actually do some good by getting us the facts.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
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http://www.appliedgmc.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] toyota coverup [message #73514 is a reply to message #73505] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 22:40 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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John R. Lebetski writes...
> Where is Ralph Nader now??????? Maybe he could actually do
> some good by getting us the facts.
I was only mildly disagreeing with you until you wrote this. Ralph
Nader's grasp of facts was always subservient to an underlying agenda
that had nothing to do with safety.
Our mechanics, and our experience, suggests that Toyotas and Subarus
are among the most reliable cars in the world. I don't disagree all
that much with your assessment of how the Lexus drives (we have one),
but the Redhead LOVES it. She likes that novocaine feeling, and to her
it is smooth. And it's her car. I don't mind driving it, but my
car-racing days are long behind me.
I drive a Subaru, made more in Indiana than anywhere else. I'm having
my first non-squirrel-induced problem with it at 107,000 miles, and I
have never changed anything on the engine except the tires, fluids,
filters, and brake pads. And that problem might also be squirrel
related. (It severely misfires when the engine is cold and wet from
kicked up slush or from sitting several days in the rain, both of
which we've had a lot of this year).
We've owned Audis (two 5000's and an A6 wagon), a GMC pickup, an Eagle
Vision, a Jeep Cherokee (AMC straight six), a Grand Cherokee (Chrysler
318), a '70 Cutlass, a Ford F100 pickup, an Infiniti I30 (QUICK car),
a Toyota Camry, a Toyota Hi-Lux, a Toyota T100, two Subaru Outbacks,
and a Lexus RX-330. Of these, only the '87 Audi, the Infiniti, the
Subarus, the Toyotas, and the Lexus made it significantly past 100,000
miles before having serious problems. The GMC truck lasted 175,000
miles, but it took 2 engines and three transmissions to make that
happen. The two Toyota trucks are still in the stable, with 175,000
and 184,000 miles. The Hi-Lux is 20 years old, has been rolled once,
and the only thing I've had to replace on it ever was a water pump.
The T100 required an idler arm recently after 182,000 miles, plus a
new muffler. The Lexus has 130,000 miles on it and I'm still waiting
for it to not look new. We traded the Camry at 190,000 miles "just
because", and the Redhead still regrets it, though she really likes
her Lexus (plus, it's all-wheel-drive). I think I've tested the
durability of a variety of brands, and personally I think Toyota has
earned their reputation for low maintenance and durability.
You may think differently, of course. But I've put it to the test, and
at the moment, my GMC has the fewest miles of any of our five
vehicles.
Rick "who will be cummuting 150 miles round trip and whose wife
commutes 80 miles round trip in the opposite direction" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73518 is a reply to message #73414] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 00:18 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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As someone who has looked at more than their share of quality data over the years, it's hard to extrapolate to a total population from a sample of a few vehicles that you have owned. (or even a few dozen if they are all different models/years/etc.) In general, the worst vehicles built in 2010 are better than the best vehicles built in 2000, and maybe even in 2005 as progress is made all the time. Historically, (thinking of the 80's and 90's) the big 3 vehicles have probably been closer to the import averages than many people believe, although they also had more variability or standard deviation in results. So, there were a greater portion far worse than average, and a greater portion far better than their inherent average. The imports tend to have results closer to their model averages. But, believe me, there are enough horror stories out there for each manufacturer on long term durability that it is definitely a percentage game. In the 00's, especially towards the second half, you can pretty much throw a blanket over the results for the majority of manufacturers. There are also factors besides vehicles in it. Having spent a long time at GMC, there are sometimes surprising differences in mostly initial quality from the Chevy's built on the same line. (even in systems/components that are identical) the difference was somewhat based in differing customer expectations and in the case of one famous supplier of quality awards, somewhat sketchy sampling plans. Looking between imports and domestics, it's hard to say where the expectations shake out. No one likes to admit they've made a bad purchase, so there may be some halo effect for imports. Additionally, for lots of reasons, import customers generally are much more likely to stick to maintenance schedule requirements than domestic customers, so that effects the data as well. To make a long story short - - its' a complex subject but there are a lot of good vehicles by all manufacturers out there these days.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] toyota coverup [message #73521 is a reply to message #73509] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 01:08 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| jimk wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 21:53 |
John.
I feel that if we can get a Toyota that is totalled, I want to have a
bashing party and charge dollar a slam with a long sledge hammer and
have a press there to cover.
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Look on Coparts. There are a bunch of them there.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] toyota coverup [message #73524 is a reply to message #73518] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 01:18 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
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Craig Lechowicz writes...
> Additionally, for lots of
> reasons, import customers generally are much more likely to stick to
> maintenance schedule requirements than domestic customers, so that
> effects the data as well.
I take your point on anecdotal evidence, though I back it up with my
own hands-on maintenance and repair of these vehicles, and the
qualitative engineering analysis that goes with that.
But those assessments relate to maintainability, not durability. The
old Audis were the most maintainable cars I've ever own (unlike the
A6), but they weren't that durable. My durability assessments are
based on what cars run well over 100K miles have actually required in
terms of unexpected repairs, and the Toyotas and Subarus have required
MUCH less repair work than any of my other cars, including other
imports.
I'm NOT saying that American cars are not as good. I AM saying that
Toyota has earned its durability reputation, as far as I'm concerned.
And I've given it a bigger test than most folks who render opinions.
It's easy to hop on a bandwagon and trash a manufacturer who is
screwing up on an issue and paint everything they've done black.
Rick "whose next car might be a Ford Flex" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73525 is a reply to message #73414] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 01:56 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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yeah Ford seems to have done homework early and is now shining by comparison.
I think that as I said all cars have thier quirks and it is now a global market with global subassemblies. That said, I would rather give my money to an American company now rather than have to support them later. (or in this case allready--point proven in fact) Since the Germans do drive German, the Japanese drive Japanese, the Koreans to the death drive Korean, if we don't, we can't compete with that I/O imbalance. Yes the Subaru's are good cars, I do car shows for them and my girl has a turbo Outback that she takes to the dealer so its hands off for me! I wish they were still just pure Subaru and not with Toyota paws in there. And they have VVT and ignition coil problems and that's no secret. It seems Jim K is the only one who wants to bash Toyota. If age is wisdom, maybe we should listen up.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: toyota coverup [message #73536 is a reply to message #73525] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 07:58 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rick,
I think we actually agree here. Toyota definitely has a lot of satisfied customers out there for a reason. Unfortunately, whatever the extent of the actual problem they may have currently, they and NHTSA have done a terrible job of managing problem resolution and handling the image and press issues. And those perceptions are expensive to establish and more expensive to fix. I'm not very familiar with Subaru #'s, but I recall them as being sort of middle of the pack in the 80's and early 90's, and being much better in the last 10 years or so. I truly know nothing about Audi. (Mostly lived my life as a trucker) Their corporate parent and brand partner VW does great on interior quality, and "appeal" or "perceptual" type issues, but is usually in the bottom 1/2 of the industry on both initial and long term "hard" quality numbers. (Typical long term VW customer comment in a focus group "I love my VW XXX, I just wish I didn't have to bring it back to the dealer so often). It's clear Audi gets to spend more money on product and I've not followed them to see how that translates into actual data. A lot of VW problems tend to be niggling acccessory type stuff, so powertrains may be better. One of the other issues with quality data is that most sources don't weight the data for customer impact. A rattle in a hubcap is the same # of problems as a blown engine. I should probably quit before I create my own version of tire wars here.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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