Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71114 is a reply to message #71096] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 10:39   |
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thas fine for most of use here in the west where we seldomly see temps below freezing. would not wanna have to pump that oil in buffalo in say January!
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71115 is a reply to message #71096] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 10:59 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Odd that they stop their chart at the bottom at 1973?? still 2 years before the 1975 cats even came in. Do they think it will only work properly in a 73 TZE and then not in a virtually identical 74-78 Olds? The highest API zinc content in USA sold oil was with SF which tracked the 1987 model year. I would think they would recommend it all through the 80s as the big ZDDP reductions didn't come until SL and SM to cover the longer cat warranties and emmisions compliance mandated by the EPA. The 20-50 is a bit overkill for me too unless I ran the Grapevine everyday.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71117 is a reply to message #71096] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 11:02 |
GMC Cruse
Messages: 606
Registered: June 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 3
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That's what the PO used in mine but I couldn't find it anywhere in my area (southern suburbs of Detroit) so I ended up switching to Mobil 1 15w50. I would prefer the 20w50.
Mike K.
'75 PB
Southeast Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71137 is a reply to message #71117] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 17:40 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Hi
I found some 10w-40 Accel brand a WalMart that I have been using since installing a JimB cam in my new motor a couple of yaers ago. it says pre 1988 motors on the jug and is API SF rated only. So far I have not had any problems no sludge build up. It is a dino oil but I change it every 2500 to 3000 miles at a buck and half a quart this is not going to break the bank.
P.S. I now have 20,000 miles on this engine
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71142 is a reply to message #71115] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 18:39 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 18 January 2010 08:59 |
... The highest API zinc content in USA sold oil was with SF which tracked the 1987 model year. ...
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I found some cheap SF dino oil in Wallmart not long ago. Accel brand. It states on the bottle "SF Quality for Model Years 1988 and Earlier." SAE 10w-40
I bought all they had, even from the back room -- just under two cases. Last time I was there they didn't have any.
I think it was $2.70 (or so) a quart.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71149 is a reply to message #71096] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 20:28 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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""Looks like a modern oil designed with flat tappet camshaft engines in
mind. Castrol 20-50""
Once the cam is broken in (which it is for most of us) the zinc content is not an issue
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71166 is a reply to message #71096] |
Mon, 18 January 2010 22:21 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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I'll kindly disagree with the fact that you don't need ZDDP in a flat tappet engine that is broken in. I've seen wiped cams in engines that were "broken in" and "middle aged" where this type of extreme failure should not occur. Typically, breakin lube is high in moly for short term use and the ZDDP was added by API for continuous use for so may years as is worked so well in pre OBDII engines.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71267 is a reply to message #71242] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 10:10 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Under RECOMMENDED SAE VISCOSITY (FIGURE 12)
Single grade oils are preferred, however, multi-grades such as 10W-30 or 10W-40 are also acceptable.
SAE 5W-20 oils are not recommended for sustained high speed driving.
SAE 5W-30 oils (if available) may be used if extreme low temperatures are anticipated.
IMHO oils and additive packages of today are far superior to what was available back "in the day" (note the SE designation above) and that must be taken into consideration.
_____________________________________________________________
QUESTION??
If the Synthetic oils actually react to cold weather in performance like a fossil oil in warm weather, doe that say that the viscosity between synthetic and fossil lubricants may be labeled the same for reference but are actually different????
For instance, Fossil oils in very cold weather ( under 32 degree F ) is very very thick, slow moving, like thick syrup.
The reports of Synthetic, seems to indicate that the synthetic stays mostly, fluid.
This might indicate that the viscocity numbers indicate a protection level of the lubricants in questions but are far from indicating protection in extreme cold weather.
If I am on the right track, this might indicate in the long run that the synthetic with the added Zinc, might be the lubrication with better benefits to add longevity to your engine.
Am I all wet or do I see this in the right way?
LarC ( Always looking to keep my engines protected in all weather )
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71280 is a reply to message #71267] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 12:25 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Several years ago, I performed a simple cold temp test with over 15
different dyno & synthetic oils. I took small baby food jars and 1/2 filled
each of them with different brands and viscosities of oils. All these little
jars were placed "lid up" in the bottom of my chest freezer for a week at 15
below. I then took each jar and flipped them "lid down" and noted how long
it took each oil to reach the lid. I no longer recall the specific results
but they were not what I expected. Most of the dyno oils and a few of the
synthetic oils flowed slower than molasses. Can you imagine your oil pump
successfully sucking up those lubricants and pumping them through a filter
during initial cold starts? My tests showed that the best cold flowing oils
were the lower viscosity versions but not necessarily from the "better"
brand names. Surprisingly I did have some very poor cold flow results from a
couple of well known European branded synthetics rated for motorcycle use.
I always wanted to perform a similar test with heated oils, but never found
the time to develop a safe and accurate test method that would be able to
measure the minute viscosity differences between each test.
A thought regarding gear lube.
I also performed the same cold flow tests on 75W90 gear lube, both dyno &
synthetic. At -15F, none of them flow very well, but the dyno oil took
around 5 minutes to move. It almost needed to be chiseled out of the jar!
The synthetic versions were better, but still flowed like a thick syrup.
Can you imagine what happens in your final drive at -15F with dyno lube? You
start driving and the initial movement wipes most of the thick lube off the
gear teeth. The ring gear would most likely cut a groove in the thick lube
sitting in the bottom of the housing. For the next 20 minutes or more you
are running with very little lube until enough heat is created to thin it
out. Its amazing that the vehicles in the cold north survive as long as they
do under such conditions!
Thanks,
Les Burt
Montreal
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: January 20, 2010 11:11 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil
Under RECOMMENDED SAE VISCOSITY (FIGURE 12)
Single grade oils are preferred, however, multi-grades such as 10W-30 or
10W-40 are also acceptable.
SAE 5W-20 oils are not recommended for sustained high speed driving.
SAE 5W-30 oils (if available) may be used if extreme low temperatures are
anticipated.
IMHO oils and additive packages of today are far superior to what was
available back "in the day" (note the SE designation above) and that must be
taken into consideration.
_____________________________________________________________
QUESTION??
If the Synthetic oils actually react to cold weather in performance like a
fossil oil in warm weather, doe that say that the viscosity between
synthetic and fossil lubricants may be labeled the same for reference but
are actually different????
For instance, Fossil oils in very cold weather ( under 32 degree F ) is very
very thick, slow moving, like thick syrup.
The reports of Synthetic, seems to indicate that the synthetic stays mostly,
fluid.
This might indicate that the viscocity numbers indicate a protection level
of the lubricants in questions but are far from indicating protection in
extreme cold weather.
If I am on the right track, this might indicate in the long run that the
synthetic with the added Zinc, might be the lubrication with better benefits
to add longevity to your engine.
Am I all wet or do I see this in the right way?
LarC ( Always looking to keep my engines protected in all weather )
--
Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
74 GLACIER X, 260
455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
Remflex Manifold gaskets
_______________________________________________
Purchased 08-18-04
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71288 is a reply to message #71280] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 13:45 |
dmumert
Messages: 46
Registered: December 2006
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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Hi All
Mobil recommends Mobil1 15w50 for older engines with non-roller cams. It
has a pour point of minus 39 degrees. The recommendations I have seen
indicate the minimum temperature for oil is 20 degrees F above the pour
point.
How many GMC motorhomes can keep the driver from freezing at minus 20F?
Dave
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Dave Mumert
Olds, AB
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71290 is a reply to message #71280] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 13:57 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Les Burt wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 12:25 |
Several years ago, I performed a simple cold temp test with over 15
different dyno & synthetic oils. I took small baby food jars and 1/2 filled
each of them with different brands and viscosities of oils. All these little
jars were placed "lid up" in the bottom of my chest freezer for a week at 15
below. I then took each jar and flipped them "lid down" and noted how long
it took each oil to reach the lid. I no longer recall the specific results
but they were not what I expected. Most of the dyno oils and a few of the
synthetic oils flowed slower than molasses. Can you imagine your oil pump
successfully sucking up those lubricants and pumping them through a filter
during initial cold starts? My tests showed that the best cold flowing oils
were the lower viscosity versions but not necessarily from the "better"
brand names. Surprisingly I did have some very poor cold flow results from a
couple of well known European branded synthetics rated for motorcycle use.
I always wanted to perform a similar test with heated oils, but never found
the time to develop a safe and accurate test method that would be able to
measure the minute viscosity differences between each test.
A thought regarding gear lube.
I also performed the same cold flow tests on 75W90 gear lube, both dyno &
synthetic. At -15F, none of them flow very well, but the dyno oil took
around 5 minutes to move. It almost needed to be chiseled out of the jar!
The synthetic versions were better, but still flowed like a thick syrup.
Can you imagine what happens in your final drive at -15F with dyno lube? You
start driving and the initial movement wipes most of the thick lube off the
gear teeth. The ring gear would most likely cut a groove in the thick lube
sitting in the bottom of the housing. For the next 20 minutes or more you
are running with very little lube until enough heat is created to thin it
out. Its amazing that the vehicles in the cold north survive as long as they
do under such conditions!
Thanks,
Les Burt
Montreal
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Les,
Thanks for the comments...very interesting...because I had somewhat the opposite experience. I live in the cold north (northern Wisconsin) and have had occasion where I've had to change oil in my vehicles during the very cold months of January and February. The oil I used was stored in my unheated garage. When changing oil, the synthetics (Amsoil and Mobile 1) both poured as if they had been stored in the house at 68*. Just what I experienced.
Anyone else had experience with Synthetics vs Dino oils in cold weather? I'd sure like to hear it...
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71325 is a reply to message #71290] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 17:49 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
I realize that the information you note below relates to the fresh oil to be
put in the engine.
I was taught that the oil had to be hot when changed; do you think it's OK
to change it cold if you run synthetic oil?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Thursday, 21 January 2010 6:57 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil
Les,
Thanks for the comments...very interesting...because I had somewhat the
opposite experience. I live in the cold north (northern Wisconsin) and have
had occasion where I've had to change oil in my vehicles during the very
cold months of January and February. The oil I used was stored in my
unheated garage. When changing oil, the synthetics (Amsoil and Mobile 1)
both poured as if they had been stored in the house at 68*. Just what I
experienced.
Anyone else had experience with Synthetics vs Dino oils in cold weather?
I'd sure like to hear it...
--
Larry :)
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi Zinc Synthetic Oil [message #71340 is a reply to message #71325] |
Wed, 20 January 2010 19:50 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 20 January 2010 18:49 |
Larry,
I realize that the information you note below relates to the fresh oil to be put in the engine.
I was taught that the oil had to be hot when changed; do you think it's OK to change it cold if you run synthetic oil?
Regards,
Rob Mueller
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OK Rob,
Yes, you were probably told that.
What you were not told is the reason and the entire issue.
Executive Summary: It doesn't matter very much what you do as long as you do it well.
The reason always given to drain when warm is to remove the lube oil while any contamination is still in suspension.
Problem:
The fact that it is warm means that there will be a greater amount of "hang up" (oil that is other places than the sump) that will not drain down very quickly.
Other issue - Any serious contamination should have been collected in the lube oil filter at some point. Most of the other contamination (largely combustion by-products) will be held in suspension by the detergent action of the lube oil almost indefinitely. What will settle out will most often stick in the bottom of the sump and stay there until provoked into moving with a scraper.
If you drain the lube oil from a cold engine (but not so cold you need gloves), in a typical engine (maybe not an Olds 455 - that silly pan) you will be able to get more of the lube oil out - if you are patient. It will not take longer to get a 95% drain with cold oil.
Probably the worst case is the service garage that starts the cold engine for just long enough to get the vehicle on the lift. Then up it goes and they drop the oil. The lube oil is now everyplace in the engine - particularly in the overhead - and at its highest viscosity. And, the grease monkey is only going to leave the plug out until he is done ignoring the other services under the vehicle.
It is just amazing the amount of information of marginal value that one can absorb by spending way too many years in engine labs.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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