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| [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69713] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 17:55  |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Somewhere there must be a list of who makes what brand of batteries.
Trojan, Sears, CostCo, Sam's Club, etc. I'm thinking that they're
nearly all the same because even though there are dozens of brands,
there just can't be that many manufacturers. I've looked on the
batteries I own for codes but cannot find any.
Any help here from the brain trust?
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69715 is a reply to message #69713] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 18:24  |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
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Check www.Batteryfaq.org, they have quite a lot of information on manufacturers.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69716 is a reply to message #69713] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 18:43 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Steven Ferguson wrote on Tue, 05 January 2010 18:55 |
Somewhere there must be a list of who makes what brand of batteries.
Trojan, Sears, CostCo, Sam's Club, etc. I'm thinking that they're nearly all the same because even though there are dozens of brands, there just can't be that many manufacturers. I've looked on the batteries I own for codes but cannot find any.
Any help here from the brain trust?
Steve Ferguson
|
Steve,
This is a question that I answer about a couple of dozen times in a season. (I work on boats in the north country, so I'm not doing much right today.)
The fact is that there are now something like a dozen plants manufacturing Lead-Acid batteries in the US for about eight (or fewer) different holding companies. Few batteries other than little gel-cels are imported - yet.
Trojan, and Exide are their own, so is Deka but both make house brands for many clients. Many of the house labels have multiple suppliers or at least supplier locations. Shipping batteries is a profit killer. The OEs may even buy from several suppliers. They get batteries to their specification but marks as their own and they often come of the line side by side. Sears used to buy only from Johnson Controls under a special agreement when they were the only one selling batteries that did not have external strapping.
Now comes the problem...
It is VERY Easy for the manufacturer to supply a battery of lesser quality and capability by just reducing the amount and quantity of lead in the assembly.
There are manufacturer and date codes stamped into the plastic case, unfortunately, this information is proprietary. Also, as I just explained whose plant assembled it really give you any real information. The only reason for the code is to get it back to the manufacturer if there is a warranty issue.
The only solid advise I can give is to Read the Label carefully. Capacity as 20 hour rate seems to be a dead issue (the best rating for a deep cycle), but reserve capacity (how long you can leave the headlights on) is a still a pretty good indicator. Cold crank comes in two temperatures (0 and 32*F). These numbers are interesting. More means better quality, but this is so easy to fool with in the battery construction that it is an easy number to push high with little cost. In actual fact, some of the thing that improve CCA detract from the total long term capacity.
I bet I haven't actually answered your question. I do hope that I passed along enough information to be of some value.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69727 is a reply to message #69713] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 20:42 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Steve,
I bought two batteries for Double Trouble last summer from Wal Mart; one
deep cycle and one start; they were both made in Mexico.
When doing some research for batteries for The Blue Streak I discovered that
Crown Batteries are made in Fremont, Ohio and Trojan Batteries has two
plants in Southern California, and two in Georgia near Atlanta.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven Ferguson
Sent: Wednesday, 6 January 2010 10:56 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Batteries
Somewhere there must be a list of who makes what brand of batteries.
Trojan, Sears, CostCo, Sam's Club, etc. I'm thinking that they're
nearly all the same because even though there are dozens of brands,
there just can't be that many manufacturers. I've looked on the
batteries I own for codes but cannot find any.
Any help here from the brain trust?
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69743 is a reply to message #69713] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 22:40 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Anyone know who actually makes Delco, specificly the group 78 we use up front?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69745 is a reply to message #69733] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 22:52 |
bukzin
Messages: 840
Registered: April 2004
Location: North California
Karma: 0
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| mcolie wrote on Tue, 05 January 2010 19:19 |
| Harry wrote on Tue, 05 January 2010 20:56 |
Cold crank comes in two temperatures (0 and 32*F). These numbers are interesting. More means better quality, but this is so easy to fool with in the battery construction that it is an easy number to push high with little cost. In actual fact, some of the thing that improve CCA detract from the total long term capacity.
Matt [end quote]
I wonder if the 0* and 32*F are Celcius and Fahrenheit?
Which would be the same.
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No,
The cold crank ratings are given at 0degF and 32degF as two separate items if both are provided. I think the actual reason is so they can put a big label that says "800 Amps of Cranking Power" on a battery that really is only rated at about 540.
Matt
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matt,
I understand the higher the CCA's the better, but is
the 0 deg. rating important to those of us who never see
temps that low?
We are warm weather coach folks.
Thanks
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69840 is a reply to message #69743] |
Wed, 06 January 2010 19:45 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| JohnL455 wrote on Tue, 05 January 2010 22:40 |
Anyone know who actually makes Delco, specificly the group 78 we use up front?
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What part of the country you are in could very well determine who made your Delco battery. When I visited the Johnson Controls battery plant in Milwaukee several years ago there were skids of various brand name batteries in the warehouse, all made there. However I believe the plant makes all batteries to the spec provided by the purchaser. We got the tour as part of our visit to discuss the specs for stationary batteries we were getting bids on.
As someone noted these things are very heavy and shipping costs could be significant
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69869 is a reply to message #69743] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 01:00 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| JohnL455 wrote on Tue, 05 January 2010 20:40 |
Anyone know who actually makes Delco, specificly the group 78 we use up front?
|
40 years ago, the answer was sort of the opposite. I met a fellow who worked in the Delco plant near Olathe, KS. He said the best battery made at the time was J.C. Penny. When they were running Penny batteries there were more white coats on the line than any other battery. So, apparently not only who and where, but who is minding the store?
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69871 is a reply to message #69780] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 02:24 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Matt. Interesting stuff but as you imply, hard to sort out.
The next time around, which should be in five or six years, both
coaches are going to get AGM batteries or some type of sealed
batteries.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> OK Steven,
>
> That is very much what I was eluding. There is no reason to doubt that the Sears (Diehard) and Costco (Kirkland) came of the same line.
>
> The markings in the case are a complete crap-shoot. There is probably a proprietary supplier and a manufacture date. The form of the manufacture date can be any of many.
>
> See, you were probably correct.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69882 is a reply to message #69871] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 08:24 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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Steve,
You are right, there are only a couple of stateside battery manufacturers and since they actually shield the manufacturer from the public it really metters less who makes them and more who sold them to you and how easy it will be in the future to replace them or uphold whatever warranty they might have.
There are several schools of thought on batteries, I'll tell you mine when it comes to living area and engine batteries for your coach.
As far as the golf cart ones for your buggy, golf cart batteries have huge, thick plates and thus "gasses" a great deal witch runs their maintenance up somewhat. They must be chacked as far as fluid level and specific gravity to determine the acid sontent of the fluid often. In that case, having a sealed battery with that leverl of chemical reaction to me would not be the way to go. It would appear easier to maintain from the consumer end of the stick but I think the life of the battery would be less. In my mind, you need to be able to check and add fluid on a regular basis.
For the GMC, if you intend on being "off the grid" for a length of time, installing 2x6 volt golf cart batteries will give you more current yes, but you need stronger power supply (more than the average 40amp converter most of us use in our coach. You neet 80 amps I would say to support the plates in a pair of golf cart batteries. Without proper support, heavy plate batteries would take too long to recharge.
If you are one for boondocking, use those batteries, get a larger charge and maybe a solar charger too. If you are mainly traveling or plugged into an RV park, you might be just as supported on power with 1 or at the most 2 marine style batteries and getting those in a sealed format is not as much a big deal. They are also not that expensive so when you get them, buy them at Wal-Mart, Costco, Sams or from some chain that has a liberal return policy cause when they crap out you can simply get a new one most any place you are when it happens. Keep the receipt and take it back. The engine wants a stadard car starting battery of @ 750+ CCA. Get it also from a mass marketeer cause you can again just take it back when you want to. Gone are the days when it made sense to go to a specialty shop for batteries.
Hope this helps, I could but do not buy batteries for my customers through my parts supplier, if it fails I do not want to be involved in the warranty loop, I just go over to Wally World and buy a battery for the customer in his name-- no fuss no muss.
Jim Bounds
--------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, January 7, 2010 3:24:14 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Batteries
Thanks Matt. Interesting stuff but as you imply, hard to sort out.
The next time around, which should be in five or six years, both
coaches are going to get AGM batteries or some type of sealed
batteries.
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>
>
> OK Steven,
>
> That is very much what I was eluding. There is no reason to doubt that the Sears (Diehard) and Costco (Kirkland) came of the same line.
>
> The markings in the case are a complete crap-shoot. There is probably a proprietary supplier and a manufacture date. The form of the manufacture date can be any of many.
>
> See, you were probably correct.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
> SE Michigan
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69885 is a reply to message #69871] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 08:34 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Steven Ferguson wrote on Thu, 07 January 2010 03:24 |
Thanks Matt. Interesting stuff but as you imply, hard to sort out.
The next time around, which should be in five or six years, both coaches are going to get AGM batteries or some type of sealed batteries.
Steve Ferguson
|
Yes Steve,
It is hard to sort out. But remember always that the thinking is the most valuable part of any project. Spread sheets help - too. If you do try to do a value analysis, try to include every single thing that can be a cost or (in)convenience in the situation.
AGMs are my favorite type of battery. Unfortunately, I also like champagne and Porshe (all have similar issues). For cruising sailors, where replacement may be very costly in both cash and time, this changes the final cost calculation.
I have recommended and installed AGMs in more than a few clients boats. The oldest is now about six seasons and when I saw it last it was doing quite well.
The installation I like best is conventional AMG for the house bank and a rolled cell AGM (Optima or the like) for a start battery. The low internal resistance of the rolled cell design makes a great cranking battery for little diesels. The rolled cell design cost cell volume so the actual capacity (as in ampere-hours) is not as good as a conventional package.
The neat thing is that I can put that start battery any place it fits. Storage volume in a coach is not a precious as it is on a cruising boat. (I can hear the gaffaw, but let me assure you it is true.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69887 is a reply to message #69882] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 08:43 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Jim, Matt.
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:24 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> You are right, there are only a couple of stateside battery manufacturers and since they actually shield the manufacturer from the public it really metters less who makes them and more who sold them to you and how easy it will be in the future to replace them or uphold whatever warranty they might have.
>
> There are several schools of thought on batteries, I'll tell you mine when it comes to living area and engine batteries for your coach.
>
> As far as the golf cart ones for your buggy, golf cart batteries have huge, thick plates and thus "gasses" a great deal witch runs their maintenance up somewhat. They must be chacked as far as fluid level and specific gravity to determine the acid sontent of the fluid often. In that case, having a sealed battery with that leverl of chemical reaction to me would not be the way to go. It would appear easier to maintain from the consumer end of the stick but I think the life of the battery would be less. In my mind, you need to be able to check and add fluid on a regular basis.
>
> For the GMC, if you intend on being "off the grid" for a length of time, installing 2x6 volt golf cart batteries will give you more current yes, but you need stronger power supply (more than the average 40amp converter most of us use in our coach. You neet 80 amps I would say to support the plates in a pair of golf cart batteries. Without proper support, heavy plate batteries would take too long to recharge.
>
> If you are one for boondocking, use those batteries, get a larger charge and maybe a solar charger too. If you are mainly traveling or plugged into an RV park, you might be just as supported on power with 1 or at the most 2 marine style batteries and getting those in a sealed format is not as much a big deal. They are also not that expensive so when you get them, buy them at Wal-Mart, Costco, Sams or from some chain that has a liberal return policy cause when they crap out you can simply get a new one most any place you are when it happens. Keep the receipt and take it back. The engine wants a stadard car starting battery of @ 750+ CCA. Get it also from a mass marketeer cause you can again just take it back when you want to. Gone are the days when it made sense to go to a specialty shop for batteries.
>
> Hope this helps, I could but do not buy batteries for my customers through my parts supplier, if it fails I do not want to be involved in the warranty loop, I just go over to Wally World and buy a battery for the customer in his name-- no fuss no muss.
>
> Jim Bounds
> --------------------------
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Thu, January 7, 2010 3:24:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Batteries
>
> Thanks Matt. Interesting stuff but as you imply, hard to sort out.
> The next time around, which should be in five or six years, both
> coaches are going to get AGM batteries or some type of sealed
> batteries.
>
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> OK Steven,
>>
>> That is very much what I was eluding. There is no reason to doubt that the Sears (Diehard) and Costco (Kirkland) came of the same line.
>>
>> The markings in the case are a complete crap-shoot. There is probably a proprietary supplier and a manufacture date. The form of the manufacture date can be any of many.
>>
>> See, you were probably correct.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie
>> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
>> SE Michigan
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Batteries [message #69895 is a reply to message #69887] |
Thu, 07 January 2010 09:45 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Another thought is to buy the heaviest (physical weight) battery if offered 2 batteries of equal size and specs, and cost. Lead is heavy stuff, and should have some indication of battery life, if maintained in a similar fashion.
Wal-Mart gets my vote for ease of purchase, and ease of warranty exchange. Plus, they are all over the place.
Tom Phipps,
with 2 Trojans in the rear, and 2 others up front.
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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