Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link
| [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68545] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 19:21  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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The fuse-able link ( a small Gage wire) is probably the best for use in this
application:
1 will take almost a dead short to burn it out
2 will take an extreme over load for a long time before burning out (slow
blow)
3 does not suffer from vibration failures
4 if it burns out, you have a serious short in your electrical system (not
just a grounding problem)
5 if it burns out, it WILL NOT create problems behind the dash or with
components. That is caused by a failure of the alternator that allows the
failed alternator to supply 100 volts to the wiring. (the APC will protect
your wiring from this over voltage.)
6 If you have lost a fuse-able link, you should go looking for:
a a short in your electrical system
b a bad alternator supplying 100 volts ( also blows up batteries)
7 if the fuse-able link burns out - fix the problem with an easy
replacement.
A fuse is a bad component for this application because it will blow out
with an overload of less than a second, and leave your dark and stranded.
Only a circuit breaker (self resetting) in this application will even come
close to working as well as the fuse-able link.
Every GMCer I know of, that put a fuse in this application has gone back to
using the fuse-able link.
JWID
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68549 is a reply to message #68545] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 20:02  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 19:21 |
The fuse-able link ( a small Gage wire) is probably the best for use in this
application:
1 will take almost a dead short to burn it out
2 will take an extreme over load for a long time before burning out (slow
blow)
3 does not suffer from vibration failures
4 if it burns out, you have a serious short in your electrical system (not
just a grounding problem)
5 if it burns out, it WILL NOT create problems behind the dash or with
components. That is caused by a failure of the alternator that allows the
failed alternator to supply 100 volts to the wiring. (the APC will protect
your wiring from this over voltage.)
6 If you have lost a fuse-able link, you should go looking for:
a a short in your electrical system
b a bad alternator supplying 100 volts ( also blows up batteries)
7 if the fuse-able link burns out - fix the problem with an easy
replacement.
A fuse is a bad component for this application because it will blow out
with an overload of less than a second, and leave your dark and stranded.
Only a circuit breaker (self resetting) in this application will even come
close to working as well as the fuse-able link.
Every GMCer I know of, that put a fuse in this application has gone back to
using the fuse-able link.
JWID
gene
|
Agreed 100%.
You can get replacement fusible links in the electrical section at AutoZone.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68569 is a reply to message #68545] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 22:54 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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I've only had to replace one due to corrosion. Turned to green powder. I soldered and heat shrunk the deal in an both ends. Didn't seem like somewhere to use crimps as the corrosion would soon return and I didn't want a bubble gum repair job on the main electrical bus.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68603 is a reply to message #68545] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 08:44 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Sorry Gene, I didn't mean to imply a fusible link is a bad thing, I understand why they are used.
I was wondering outloud (and this is what gets me into trouble here), why the voltage sense connection is on the Load side of the fusible link, and furthermore it is shown as a connection somewhere along the main line from the fusible link to the Ignition switch, which adds even more voltage drop.
With the headlights ON (hi beam too), heater motor on HI, air compressor running along with other loads, the voltage drop from the battery to voltage sense lead connection will add up to a significant amount!. This voltage drop will be added to the output voltage of the alternator. Therefore the voltage across the battery will be even higher than desired.
My understanding is that the voltage sense lead should be connected as close as possible to the battery to minimize IR losses from the sense point to the battery, therefore providing a charging voltage at the battery as close to optimum as possible under all load conditions.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68606 is a reply to message #68603] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 09:02 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Bruce,
Those are certainly valid points. I suspect the answer is that the fusible
link is supposed to fail only in a catastrophic situation when it's
important to interrupt ALL power to the vehicle -- including even the feed
back to the alternator. The safety folks probably regard that as more
important than all the possible shortcomings in normal operation.
Ken H.
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry Gene, I didn't mean to imply a fusible link is a bad thing, I
> understand why they are used.
>
> I was wondering outloud (and this is what gets me into trouble here), why
> the voltage sense connection is on the Load side of the fusible link, and
> furthermore it is shown as a connection somewhere along the main line from
> the fusible link to the Ignition switch, which adds even more voltage drop.
>
> With the headlights ON (hi beam too), heater motor on HI, air compressor
> running along with other loads, the voltage drop from the battery to voltage
> sense lead connection will add up to a significant amount!. This voltage
> drop will be added to the output voltage of the alternator. Therefore the
> voltage across the battery will be even higher than desired.
>
> My understanding is that the voltage sense lead should be connected as
> close as possible to the battery to minimize IR losses from the sense point
> to the battery, therefore providing a charging voltage at the battery as
> close to optimum as possible under all load conditions.
>
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| Rewiring the Coach [message #68613 is a reply to message #68545] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 09:39 |
Firefly
Messages: 98
Registered: May 2008
Location: Augusta, Maine
Karma: 0
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Member |
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In the case of my plan to completely rewire my coach - including a completely new dash/instrument cluster - I am considering of ordering a new Painless harness and they have multiple choices.
Does anyone have a preferred configuration to use in terms of the alternator fusible link circuit?
Mark Scoble, Lunenburg, MA - 1973 23' Palm Beach Stretched to 32' and in residence at the GMC Co-Op in Orlando, FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68638 is a reply to message #68549] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 12:58 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 21:02 |
| Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 19:21 |
The fuse-able link ( a small Gage wire) is probably the best for use in this
application:
1 will take almost a dead short to burn it out
2 will take an extreme over load for a long time before burning out (slow
blow)
3 does not suffer from vibration failures
4 if it burns out, you have a serious short in your electrical system (not
just a grounding problem)
5 if it burns out, it WILL NOT create problems behind the dash or with
components. That is caused by a failure of the alternator that allows the
failed alternator to supply 100 volts to the wiring. (the APC will protect
your wiring from this over voltage.)
6 If you have lost a fuse-able link, you should go looking for:
a a short in your electrical system
b a bad alternator supplying 100 volts ( also blows up batteries)
7 if the fuse-able link burns out - fix the problem with an easy
replacement.
A fuse is a bad component for this application because it will blow out
with an overload of less than a second, and leave your dark and stranded.
Only a circuit breaker (self resetting) in this application will even come
close to working as well as the fuse-able link.
Every GMCer I know of, that put a fuse in this application has gone back to
using the fuse-able link.
JWID
gene
|
Agreed 100%.
You can get replacement fusible links in the electrical section at AutoZone.
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Ken,
I very seldom disagree with any you write, and while I agree that the circuit protection is essential and replacing a failed fusible link is seldom a big issue. They can, however, can corrode and the become a very resistance and that makes trouble shooting a bear. Unfortunately, the fuse that is needed to make an effective is expensive, but many newer vehicles have just that.
A reason,
Here in Michigan, they spread very liberal (don't go there) amounts of salt (aka fender solvent and wire remover) all over the place from November to March. Many vehicles have the fusible link at the starter terminal (can you say S-Brain stupid?). Many times I have had to provide a bypass to get a friend's vehicle into my barn so we could lift it up to make the required repair.
I like having a part that can be visually inspected under the hood.
Man
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68658 is a reply to message #68638] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 15:37 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I have replaced a couple on GMCs that have simply worn or corroded out. Luckily for us they are right up top and easily accessible.
I understand why they are next to the starter on some vehicles. This is because that is the closest point, cabling wise, to the power source (battery and alternator). All those things usually are is a piece of flexible 14 gauge wire.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68659 is a reply to message #68569] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 15:34 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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>
> *
> I've only had to replace one due to corrosion. Turned to green powder. *
good point, those of us in the arid climes, often forget about corrosion (
always buy your GMC from Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, CA-- no rust;>)
but those of us who grew up building Military, flight / weapons, systems,
were never allowed to solder stranded wire cables. When you solder a
flexible , stranded wire, you make it a solid - inflexible - contaminated
with chemicals and fluxes , brittle conductor.
In fact, the worst thing to do was to solder a battery terminal to a
stranded battery cable. the battery cable p;purpose was to connect a solid
immovable circuit to a vibrating, moving battery in a mechanical box. To
make the stranded battery cable solid at the battery connector was a sure
failure point.
So the answer was always, use a "good gas-tight" crimp from the terminal to
the wire, then coat the assembly with a spec #xxzzzz coating which would
withstand 2,336 hours of salt spray ;>)
This is why there are so many crimp connections in autos....
so, good luck, and do what ever winds your clock
good point to bring up, I will go look for corrosion ;>)
GWID
gene
> I soldered and heat shrunk the deal in an both ends. Didn't seem like
> somewhere to use crimps as the corrosion would soon return and I didn't want
> a bubble gum repair job on the main electrical bus.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
>
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68662 is a reply to message #68659] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 16:19 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
When I installed the Xantrex inverter in Double Trouble I called the guy I
bought the cables from and asked him if it would be better to solder or
crimp the connectors on.
He noted; "I'm not getting into that one!" followed by; "people have been
arguing that for years." He gave me a website to look at re the subject and
he was right! I noted that the discussion was like the tire wars!
I bought a hammer crimper from him and crimped the ends after putting some
anti-corrosion grease in the connectors and on the ends of the cable. After
crimping there was a small amount where the cable went into the connector so
I spread it into the gap, pulled the shrink tube over the join and shrunk
it.
I reckon those connections will outlast me and probably the GMC too!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
Sent: Tuesday, 29 December 2009 8:35 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link
but those of us who grew up building Military, flight / weapons, systems,
were never allowed to solder stranded wire cables. When you solder a
flexible , stranded wire, you make it a solid - inflexible - contaminated
with chemicals and fluxes , brittle conductor.
In fact, the worst thing to do was to solder a battery terminal to a
stranded battery cable. the battery cable p;purpose was to connect a solid
immovable circuit to a vibrating, moving battery in a mechanical box. To
make the stranded battery cable solid at the battery connector was a sure
failure point.
So the answer was always, use a "good gas-tight" crimp from the terminal to
the wire, then coat the assembly with a spec #xxzzzz coating which would
withstand 2,336 hours of salt spray ;>)
GWID
gene
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GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68663 is a reply to message #68658] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 16:21 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I did a search of the photosite for "fuseable link" and "link" and found
nada.
Anybody got a picture of this puppy that they can post so I can see where it
is?
Thanks,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Burton
Sent: Tuesday, 29 December 2009 8:37 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link
I have replaced a couple on GMCs that have simply worn or corroded out.
Luckily for us they are right up top and easily accessible.
I understand why they are next to the starter on some vehicles. This is
because that is the closest point, cabling wise, to the power source
(battery and alternator). All those things usually are is a piece of
flexible 14 gauge wire.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68675 is a reply to message #68663] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 17:51 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Mon, 28 December 2009 16:21 |
Ken,
I did a search of the photosite for "fuseable link" and "link" and found
nada.
Anybody got a picture of this puppy that they can post so I can see where it
is?
Thanks,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
I do not have a picture handy but it is just a short piece (around 6") of 16 gauge black wire. It is attached to the terminal on the front of the "horn relay and buzzer asm". It runs horizontally to the "Battery Pickup Junction Block". This stuff is located under the passenger side hood. Just open the hood and it is staring at you just about in the center.
Note: I just looked at the wiring diagram and it is indeed 16 gauge, not 14 gauge as I previously posted in this thread.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link [message #68724 is a reply to message #68662] |
Tue, 29 December 2009 07:46 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Yes, the cremp/solder thing has been out there for decades. When I worked at Circuit City training installers and setting up new sotres, the standard there was "solder and tape" with Scotch 33+. I had done solder school in electronics but was on the cremp side for vehicle work. I hid how I felt and taught soldering everything. The lesson is not made as yet and my guess is this post will key some solder guy in to tell me how much I am wrong and he is right. Whatever! I too have a hammer cremp and use it often!
Have not had time to follow all of this thread but I understand someone pupued using a heavy gauge fuse in application instead of the fuse link. this may also very well be one of those discussions with no end. I'll tell you this though, we have replaced the fuse link with ATC style heavy duty fuse holders and a 40 amp fuse for some time.
1. as stated, this is a fail safe device and should only blow when there is a serious problem. If you take the current to the air suspension compressor out of the circuit (I run and fuse that seperatly) a 40 amp fuse is more than enough to run the ignition and light circuits in our coach.
2. If there is a problem, it sure is easier to replace an ATC style fuse and find the problem than guessing the fuse link is bad-- now where to you get some of that on a Sunday night in Lower Lonpoc!
3. After 30+ years and as important as this little piece of wire is, I think it is a good thing to go ahead and replace it with something that can be recognized and fixed by most anyone. When a fuse is blown you know the problem-- I have had mechanics aregue with me over the phone about the fuse link wire!
Hey, we live in America and you do not have to do things the way I do, I have to fix things to last and fix them so they can be fixed again if needbe, for me a good fat fuse in place of a fuse link works great.--- soldered or cremped in!
Jim Bounds
---------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 5:19:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link
Gene,
When I installed the Xantrex inverter in Double Trouble I called the guy I
bought the cables from and asked him if it would be better to solder or
crimp the connectors on.
He noted; "I'm not getting into that one!" followed by; "people have been
arguing that for years." He gave me a website to look at re the subject and
he was right! I noted that the discussion was like the tire wars!
I bought a hammer crimper from him and crimped the ends after putting some
anti-corrosion grease in the connectors and on the ends of the cable. After
crimping there was a small amount where the cable went into the connector so
I spread it into the gap, pulled the shrink tube over the join and shrunk
it.
I reckon those connections will outlast me and probably the GMC too!
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Mr.erf ERFisher
Sent: Tuesday, 29 December 2009 8:35 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuse-able Link , is not a weak Link
but those of us who grew up building Military, flight / weapons, systems,
were never allowed to solder stranded wire cables. When you solder a
flexible , stranded wire, you make it a solid - inflexible - contaminated
with chemicals and fluxes , brittle conductor.
In fact, the worst thing to do was to solder a battery terminal to a
stranded battery cable. the battery cable p;purpose was to connect a solid
immovable circuit to a vibrating, moving battery in a mechanical box. To
make the stranded battery cable solid at the battery connector was a sure
failure point.
So the answer was always, use a "good gas-tight" crimp from the terminal to
the wire, then coat the assembly with a spec #xxzzzz coating which would
withstand 2,336 hours of salt spray ;>)
GWID
gene
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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