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| Skinner valves [message #68435] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 01:20  |
jtblank
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2007
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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Spent the afternoon taking the valve assembly apart in the inside Electro Level 1 and teflon pipe doping the fittings in attemp to eliminate air loss. Upon re-assembly it used bubble snot to check for leaks and found a leak in the bottom of one exhaust solenoid at the holes where the pin wrench fits. I didn't take the valve apart just re-doped the valve housings to nipples. The exhaust valve has two threaded fitting holes marked 1 and 2 with #1 open and #2 connected to raise valve, just checking to make sure that is correct. How would the leak be in the pin wrech hole??? Anybody else ever see this or have any ideas? Trying to get it to hold air for days, not hours! All the other inside, outside and bags checkout, this is only remaining leak.
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
Tulare, CA
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| Re: Skinner valves [message #68456 is a reply to message #68435] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 09:54  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| jtblank wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 02:20 |
Spent the afternoon taking the valve assembly apart in the inside Electro Level 1 and teflon pipe doping the fittings in attemp to eliminate air loss. Upon re-assembly it used bubble snot to check for leaks and found a leak in the bottom of one exhaust solenoid at the holes where the pin wrench fits. I didn't take the valve apart just re-doped the valve housings to nipples. The exhaust valve has two threaded fitting holes marked 1 and 2 with #1 open and #2 connected to raise valve, just checking to make sure that is correct. How would the leak be in the pin wrench hole??? Anybody else ever see this or have any ideas? Trying to get it to hold air for days, not hours! All the other inside, outside and bags checkout, this is only remaining leak.
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
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John,
I don't doubt your observation, but that failure is real rare and it is an OED (Original Equipment Defect). We used a S-pot full of those valves in emissions testing and the related equipment. I did see this same failure in the late 70's (how's that for timing) it was also a Skinner valve and the spanner hole had broken through to the inside. This was a stainless valve and a replacement was 8 weeks out. I got out a jewelry torch and silver soldered the crack closed. I lost track of that valve and I only worked in that lab another eight years.
If you don't want to brave my fix (and there is no good reason to do so), you could try either an epoxy of one of the Lokite family of crack sealers. You have no chemical or temperature issues to deal with there.
Good Luck
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68479 is a reply to message #68435] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 12:47 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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On Dec 27, 2009, at 2:20 AM, John Blankenship wrote:
> Spent the afternoon taking the valve assembly apart in the inside
> Electro Level 1 and teflon pipe doping the fittings in attemp to
> eliminate air loss. Upon re-assembly it used bubble snot to check
> for leaks and found a leak in the bottom of one exhaust solenoid at
> the holes where the pin wrench fits. I didn't take the valve apart
> just re-doped the valve housings to nipples. The exhaust valve has
> two threaded fitting holes marked 1 and 2 with #1 open and #2
> connected to raise valve, just checking to make sure that is
> correct. How would the leak be in the pin wrech hole??? Anybody
> else ever see this or have any ideas? Trying to get it to hold air
> for days, not hours! All the other inside, outside and bags
> checkout, this is only remaining leak.
Hi John,
My father and I rebuilt my EL-I system on my 77 Eleganza last summer.
As in your case we found leaks in the bottom of the valve bodies. The
"pin wrench" holes in the bottom are actually threaded mounting holes
intended for mounting the valves to a plate. Upon close examination
we found that several of my valves had hairline cracks or small
fissues in their bodies, usually emanating from the inlet/outlet
fittings and progressing across the body of the valve. The tapped
holes in combination with the tapered pipe thread probably cause some
stress concentrations in those areas. In some cases the fissures had
no obvious cause.
I ended up machining some round plates and my father cut some rubber
gasket material into the proper diameter to cover the bottom of the
valve and I bolted the cover plate and gasket to the valve using the
existing mounting holes.
This stopped the leaks from the valves. My system now holds air for
many days.
Also, make sure to check the bottom of the reserve tank for leaks.
Mine had many microscopic rust holes as a result of the PO not
draining condensate out of the tank occasionally.
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
Hamilton, Ohio
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: Skinner valves [message #68486 is a reply to message #68456] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 13:19 |
jtblank
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2007
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
Thanks for the reply, I'm glad someone doesn't think I'm nuts! and have seen a leak out of the machined spanner wrench pin hole. My immediate thoughts were actually the same as your suggested fix... fill the hole! Since you think the problem was from production it explains why the PO never could find the leak, he had redone the fittings but probably never checked the bottoms, I did, probably by accident, the bubble test solution I used has a big swab ball dauber and swabed the snot over everything, came back in a few minutes and had a 1 1/2 inch bubble under the valve. I thougt at first from the fitting but took my finger with the snot on it and felt the spanner holes and could see tiny bubbles from only the one hole. The PO was the first owner, I'm the second for the last 4 1/2 years. It does seem to leak faster in colder weather, the brass must shrink slightly.
One other solution I thought was if the valve was reversed ie the raise valve was plumbed to the other opening but I don't know how the exhaust valve funtions as I didn't take it apart to see if it is reversible and hopefully only the one hole was machined too close.
I'm taking a short overnight trip today and probably try the fix next weekend, I'll let you know of the outcome.
Again thanks, this is what make the GMC MH community so great, the sharing of information from owners with varying knowledge and experiences.
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
Tulare, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68488 is a reply to message #68479] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 13:36 |
jtblank
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2007
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
Thanks! glad to see I'm not the only one to see this, unfortunately it was you. Quite an obvious but unique solution you developed, but I don't have resourses to fabricate a cover plate. I'm thinking maybe pipe doping a short screw that fits the machined and threaded hole may cure the leak.
Thanks for the info, it helps.
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
Tulare, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68503 is a reply to message #68488] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 15:03 |
bukzin
Messages: 840
Registered: April 2004
Location: North California
Karma: 0
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My valves have been leaking for so long I took all
of them out (now I raise and lower the coach with a Schrader
valve)
Is there anyone that re-builds these air valves?
Has there been a write-up at one of the tech sessions?
Any work-arounds?
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68513 is a reply to message #68435] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 10:06 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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On Dec 27, 2009, at 2:20 AM, John Blankenship wrote:
> Spent the afternoon taking the valve assembly apart in the inside
> Electro Level 1 and teflon pipe doping the fittings in attemp to
> eliminate air loss. Upon re-assembly it used bubble snot to check
> for leaks and found a leak in the bottom of one exhaust solenoid at
> the holes where the pin wrench fits. I didn't take the valve apart
> just re-doped the valve housings to nipples. The exhaust valve has
> two threaded fitting holes marked 1 and 2 with #1 open and #2
> connected to raise valve, just checking to make sure that is
> correct. How would the leak be in the pin wrech hole??? Anybody
> else ever see this or have any ideas?
Hi John,
My father and I rebuilt my EL-I system on my 77 Eleganza last summer.
As in your case we found leaks in the bottom of the valve bodies. The
"pin wrench" holes in the bottom are actually threaded mounting holes
intended for mounting the valves to a plate. Upon close examination
we found that several of my valves had hairline cracks or small
fissues in their bodies, usually emanating from the inlet/outlet
fittings and progressing across the body of the valve. The tapped
holes in combination with the tapered pipe thread probably cause some
stress concentrations in those areas. In some cases the fissures had
no obvious cause.
I ended up machining some round plates and my father cut some rubber
gasket material into the proper diameter to cover the bottom of the
valve and I bolted the cover plate and gasket to the valve using the
existing mounting holes.
This stopped the leaks from the valves. My system now holds air for
many days.
Also, make sure to check the bottom of the reserve tank for leaks.
Mine had many microscopic rust holes as a result of the PO not
draining condensate out of the tank occasionally.
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
Hamilton, Ohio
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68515 is a reply to message #68503] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 16:03 |
GMCWiperMan
Messages: 1248
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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John,
Thanks for telling us about the leaking valve body; I'd never heard of it.
Richard,
If your valves were leaking THROUGH the valves, I'll bet it was because of
contamination, not wear. They're easy to disassemble -- the pin wrench is
the problem. I made one from a nut big enough to span the holes. Drilled a
couple of holes through the nut to match those in the valve and drove roll
pins through those holes to mate with the valve holes.
When you disassemble the valve you'll find there's little to go wrong except
for rust or dirt to lodge between the needle valve and its seat.
Replacement valves and parts, and the pin wrench much like I made, were
available from Skinner when I checked several years ago but it turned out I
didn't need any. Jim Bounds was at one time a dealer for them.
I've considered replacing them with larger ones from the "hopping car"
community, but for faster operation, not improved reliability. I no longer
consider it worth the effort or cost.
Ken H.
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Richard <bukzin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> My valves have been leaking for so long I took all
> of them out (now I raise and lower the coach with a Schrader
> valve)
>
> Is there anyone that re-builds these air valves?
>
> Has there been a write-up at one of the tech sessions?
>
>
>
> Any work-arounds?
> --
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68533 is a reply to message #68521] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 17:59 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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On Dec 27, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Kim D M Simmons wrote:
> Ok, now have another thing to add to my list of, I do not know where
> that is.
> Where is this reserve tank I need to drain and really how often
> should it be drained?
Don't know about other coaches but mine is painted black, about 6"
tall and 3" diameter in the same closet compartment as the air
compressor and solenoid valves. This is an Electro-level I system.
My tank has a petcock valve on the bottom that lets you blow it down
to remove rust, oil, water, and whatever other garbage happens to
accumulate in there. I'd recommend draining any accumulated water
after every trip until you get an idea of how quickly your system
builds moisture and then adjust your draining schedule accordingly.
Water buildup in the tank will depend on how often the compressor runs
and how humid the ambient air is inside the coach.
It took about an hour of torch time to braze up the bottom of my tank
after wire brushing off all the paint - and finding all the pinholes!
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
Hamilton, Ohio
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68558 is a reply to message #68503] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 21:14 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Speaking of valves...
Anyone know of a good place to get good solenoid valves at a good price?
| bukzin wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 15:03 |
My valves have been leaking for so long I took all
of them out (now I raise and lower the coach with a Schrader
valve)
Is there anyone that re-builds these air valves?
Has there been a write-up at one of the tech sessions?
Any work-arounds?
|
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68564 is a reply to message #68558] |
Sun, 27 December 2009 22:00 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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My guess is that they are available from the Jim's.
You can call 800-827-2300 to find the nearest dealer.
2-way solenoid is part#C2DA1251 Pricing was about $45 several years
ago
3-way solenoid is parft#C4KD1150 Pricing was about $65 several years
ago
2-way repair kit is part#C60-S001 $22.50
3-way repair kit is part#C60-S005 $30
These number are from the GMCMHI parts interchange.
Articles on solenoids are in the GMCMHI Newsletter Page 74-2 and page
82-4 available in the members only area for download.
For those of you that are not members of GMCMHI this interchange list
is worth the price of admission. The newsletters contain a wealth of
information.
J.R. Wright
>
>
> Speaking of valves...
> Anyone know of a good place to get good solenoid valves at a good
> price?
>
> bukzin wrote on Sun, 27 December 2009 15:03
>> My valves have been leaking for so long I took all
>> of them out (now I raise and lower the coach with a Schrader
>> valve)
>>
>> Is there anyone that re-builds these air valves?
>>
>> Has there been a write-up at one of the tech sessions?
>>
>>
>>
>> Any work-arounds?
>
>
> --
> Keith
> 69 Vette
> 29 Dodge
> 75 Royale GMC
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68576 is a reply to message #68564] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 03:07 |
jtblank
Messages: 237
Registered: June 2007
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Well, I couldn't wait so I went ahead and tore the valve system apart again and filled the threaded holes with a #10x32 3/8" inch bolt, nut and washer to stop the leak through the holes. Thanks Matt and Jim for feeding my thoughts on the problem and ultimate fix.
If anyone has a leak that can't be found be sure to check these threaded holes, the first owner of my "Sweet Pea" '76 Palm Beach never did find it in 29 years and took me 4 years. I coated every inch of the air system in the closet to find it. Before it would lose a 3-5 pounds per hour, now I just checked and 6 hours later no loss and still at 126 pounds! Hurray! The PO told me he just was use to airing up...... Now on to the next project!
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
Now without leaks!
John Blankenship
'76 Palm Beach
Tulare, CA
[Updated on: Mon, 28 December 2009 03:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68616 is a reply to message #68576] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 09:41 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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On Dec 28, 2009, at 4:07 AM, John Blankenship wrote:
> Well, I couldn't wait so I went ahead and tore the valve system
> apart again and filled the threaded holes with a #10x32 3/8" inch
> bolt, nut and washer to stop the leak through the holes. Thanks
> Matt and Jim for feeding my thoughts on the problem and fix.
Hi John,
Glad to hear you were able to remedy the problem easily. In my case I
was not so lucky - four of my valve bodies were cracked partially
across their bases. We thought of polishing them up and then
soldering across the crack but were worried about the heat distoring
the valve body and seat. The cracks were miniscule; we had to wire
brush the base of the valve and then use a magnifying glass to see them!
In an attempt to "tighten up" my system we also replaced the factory's
crimped fittings in the wheelwell where they attach to the leveling
valves. Unfortunately, I did not discover until too late that the
leveling valves have threads (3/8-24 IIRC) that will not mate up with
the 1/8" pipe threads on the new brass compression fittings that I was
installing. I had to machine some brass adapters with 1/8" NPT on one
side and 3/8-24 machine threads on the other in order to put it back
together.
The Miller Family Skunkworks has a project in progress to bring the
Electro Level into the 21st Century...stay tuned.
--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
Hamilton, Ohio
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Skinner valves [message #68643 is a reply to message #68629] |
Mon, 28 December 2009 13:29 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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John,
I was glad to help, but those holes are not the spanner holes. Those are the mounting holes. The spanner holes are under the coil and where you need to unscrew the center to get to the plunger and seal.
Glad you got it in any case.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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