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| [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42642] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 19:14  |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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New thread here.
Well, the new fan clutch behaves worse than the other new one. This
one kicks in just as the thermostadt opens, and never shuts off.
About 179 deg on my temp gauge and just stays there forever. It is
not as heavy duty a unit as the one I replaced before the trip home
from GMCWS. It does not roar as loud and that tells me it's
percentage of engine rpm is lower. This is becoming a dilemma. I'm
quite sure that my temp gauge is accurate because I can actuallly
watch the gauge react to the thermostadt cycling open. Also, my trans
temps stay right around 180 (sender on the output side of the
converter).
I know a lot of you guys are at GMCES rally right now and I bet Gene
Dotson is there also. (He's not answering my emails.) I'd appreciate
it if someone would hook him up with a computer so we can get
together. A phone call would be OK too. My number is: 520-803-0220.
Gene and Jim have sold a ton of these alum radiators and I'd like to
know what the rest of the world is doing for a fan clutch.
Jim K is going over to his supplier to make sure that he's getting
what they say he is and also to look a little deeper into this. I
have agreed to keep swapping these things out til we come to one that
behaves well behind an aluminum radiator. Anyone want to race me on
a clutch fan swap?
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42647 is a reply to message #42642] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 19:42  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Our warehouse dist. is going to drop off a AC Delco catalog on fan
clutches. Hopefully I can come up with a one for gasoline engine that
will come on at 200 and shut off at 195.
Steve is going to get fast at changing out the fan clutch.
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 5:14 PM, Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com> wrote:
> New thread here.
> Â Well, the new fan clutch behaves worse than the other new one. Â This
> one kicks in just as the thermostadt opens, and never shuts off.
> About 179 deg on my temp gauge and just stays there forever. Â It is
> not as heavy duty a unit as the one I replaced before the trip home
> from GMCWS. Â It does not roar as loud and that tells me it's
> percentage of engine rpm is lower. Â This is becoming a dilemma. Â I'm
> quite sure that my temp gauge is accurate because I can actuallly
> watch the gauge react to the thermostadt cycling open. Â Also, my trans
> temps stay right around 180 (sender on the output side of the
> converter).
> Â I know a lot of you guys are at GMCES rally right now and I bet Gene
> Dotson is there also. Â (He's not answering my emails.) Â I'd appreciate
> it if someone would hook him up with a computer so we can get
> together. Â A phone call would be OK too. Â My number is: Â 520-803-0220.
> Â Gene and Jim have sold a ton of these alum radiators and I'd like to
> know what the rest of the world is doing for a fan clutch.
> Â Jim K is going over to his supplier to make sure that he's getting
> what they say he is and also to look a little deeper into this. Â I
> have agreed to keep swapping these things out til we come to one that
> behaves well behind an aluminum radiator. Â Anyone want to race me on
> a clutch fan swap?
>
> --
> Steve Ferguson
> '76 EII
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> Urethane bushing source
> www.bdub.net/ferguson/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
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www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42648 is a reply to message #42642] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 19:49 |
kingd
Messages: 592
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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I "thought" it was possible to adjust the on/off points of a fan clutch by messing with the coiled bi-metallic strip. Has anyone tried thus ? Any success? I know from "experience that if the trans cooler weeps onto the coil and it collects dirt, the engagement point goes WAY up. Perhaps some experimentation is in order.
DAVE KING
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
DAVE KING
lurker, wannabe
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42649 is a reply to message #42642] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 19:46 |
Tin Gerbil
Messages: 236
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
Karma: 0
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Steve;
As you already have all the experts one your side, I am reluctant to
comment but here goes;
When I finally sorted out my two fan clutches, I ended up with ones
that were listed for a 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck, not a one ton. There were
specification on the clutches as to temperature and coupling as a % of
pulley speed. As I said, I ran those 2 one ton Fords for 300,000+ miles
with no repairs. They were quiet, except on a 100*F day carrying a
7-8000 lb load (14,000 lbs gross) up a long hill.
I wonder if you would be better off with a couple of electric pusher
fans on your aluminum radiator? My buddy with a 36 foot SOB and a FORD
V-10 only has the electric fans. They have gone to Mesa and back for 6
years with this rig, with never a problem. He did tell me the first
time the fans kick in to max in California, he stopped and got out to
see what had broken.
JWID;
Gordon
Steven Ferguson wrote:
> New thread here.
> Well, the new fan clutch behaves worse than the other new one. This
> one kicks in just as the thermostadt opens, and never shuts off.
> About 179 deg on my temp gauge and just stays there forever. It is
> not as heavy duty a unit as the one I replaced before the trip home
> from GMCWS. It does not roar as loud and that tells me it's
> percentage of engine rpm is lower. This is becoming a dilemma. I'm
> quite sure that my temp gauge is accurate because I can actuallly
> watch the gauge react to the thermostadt cycling open. Also, my trans
> temps stay right around 180 (sender on the output side of the
> converter).
> I know a lot of you guys are at GMCES rally right now and I bet Gene
> Dotson is there also. (He's not answering my emails.) I'd appreciate
> it if someone would hook him up with a computer so we can get
> together. A phone call would be OK too. My number is: 520-803-0220.
> Gene and Jim have sold a ton of these alum radiators and I'd like to
> know what the rest of the world is doing for a fan clutch.
> Jim K is going over to his supplier to make sure that he's getting
> what they say he is and also to look a little deeper into this. I
> have agreed to keep swapping these things out til we come to one that
> behaves well behind an aluminum radiator. Anyone want to race me on
> a clutch fan swap?
>
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Gordon
'74 Canyon Lands "Tin Gerbil"
Vancouver Island, B.C.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42657 is a reply to message #42648] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 20:30 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Dave,
I have had results adjusting the coil. It seemed like that lasted only
for a short duration before something else went wrong with it.
As far as electric fans; Gene Dotson was working on a duel fan unit
with shrouds and found that it could not pull enough air through to
cool.
The last conversation with him sounded like he gave up.
We played with these fan units and found tht the blades created
ristriction to the natural flow so we put them on the down side of the
flow. The motors they use on most of the units are not very strong.
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Dave King <kingd@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> I "thought" it was possible to adjust the on/off points of a fan clutch by messing with the coiled bi-metallic strip. Has anyone tried thus ? Any success? I know from "experience that if the trans cooler weeps onto the coil and it collects dirt, the engagement point goes WAY up. Perhaps some experimentation is in order.
>
> DAVE KING
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42661 is a reply to message #42642] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 21:23 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Steve
I believe you will find the aluminum radiator is not the problem. Like I mentioned earlier my clutch fan engages at 220 and is off around 180 or 190 and I have an aluminum radiator. The only difference is mine is a 2797 Hayden. Delco most likely has a run of mis calibrated bi metal springs.
Roy
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42662 is a reply to message #42642] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 21:32 |
Rick Denney
Messages: 430
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Steven Ferguson writes...
> Gene and Jim have sold a ton of these alum radiators and I'd like to
> know what the rest of the world is doing for a fan clutch.
For the last several years, I've been using an AC-Delco 15-4208, which
is the clutch originally specified and is also the clutch that was
used in a zillion big 70's cars. from 1968 to 1985, including 40 Buick
models, 24 Pontiac models, 2 Chevvies, and 112 Oldsmobiles (including
the Toro). The clutch was used from small vehicles to the biggest
behemoths in the fleets, such as 98's, Toros, and Delta 88's.
The pump that Jim K. and Emery recommends is the 15-4644, which is
supposed to be a heavy-duty model compared to the 4208. It has 115
official applications, spread across those same brands. But the 4644
is more narrowly applied to vehicles that were equipped with the 350
diesel, and the stations wagons with 4BBL carbs and towing packages up
through about 1990. That clutch was first used in 1978, so it was only
used on small-block engines.
I have never heard my 4208 fan clutch come on. I'm not even sure I
know what it sounds like--I've never heard the roar that everyone else
talks about. I must not put that kind of heat stress on the engine,
especially with the aluminum radiator. It may be that the cut-in
temperature is too high for the load I give it. I don't even hear it
when I first start the engine, as I do with, say, my Toyota pickups
that have a similar type of clutch.
But I have a 15-4644 sitting at the house to install, because of my
semi-annual back-country hill climb. I have not even looked at it yet,
but if things go well this weekend I'll have it on the coach.
Rick "needing to get the coach in usable condition" Denney
'73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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'73 Glacier 230 "Jaws"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42665 is a reply to message #42662] |
Fri, 08 May 2009 22:57 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
I'll send you the 15-4208 Monday to try.
I know that the 4644 was on a diesel units which run at 10-15 degrees cooler.
If nothing else, I can see that the fan clutches tolerances are not that close.
I'm glad that I'm in a position to where I can warranty these if they
do not work as they should.
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Rick Denney <rick@rickdenney.com> wrote:
> Steven Ferguson writes...
>
>> Â Gene and Jim have sold a ton of these alum radiators and I'd like to
>> know what the rest of the world is doing for a fan clutch.
>
> For the last several years, I've been using an AC-Delco 15-4208, which
> is the clutch originally specified and is also the clutch that was
> used in a zillion big 70's cars. from 1968 to 1985, including 40 Buick
> models, 24 Pontiac models, 2 Chevvies, and 112 Oldsmobiles (including
> the Toro). The clutch was used from small vehicles to the biggest
> behemoths in the fleets, such as 98's, Toros, and Delta 88's.
>
> The pump that Jim K. and Emery recommends is the 15-4644, which is
> supposed to be a heavy-duty model compared to the 4208. It has 115
> official applications, spread across those same brands. But the 4644
> is more narrowly applied to vehicles that were equipped with the 350
> diesel, and the stations wagons with 4BBL carbs and towing packages up
> through about 1990. That clutch was first used in 1978, so it was only
> used on small-block engines.
>
> I have never heard my 4208 fan clutch come on. I'm not even sure I
> know what it sounds like--I've never heard the roar that everyone else
> talks about. I must not put that kind of heat stress on the engine,
> especially with the aluminum radiator. It may be that the cut-in
> temperature is too high for the load I give it. I don't even hear it
> when I first start the engine, as I do with, say, my Toyota pickups
> that have a similar type of clutch.
>
> But I have a 15-4644 sitting at the house to install, because of my
> semi-annual back-country hill climb. I have not even looked at it yet,
> but if things go well this weekend I'll have it on the coach.
>
> Rick "needing to get the coach in usable condition" Denney
>
> '73 230 Ex-Glacier "Jaws"
> Northern Virginia
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42667 is a reply to message #42642] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 03:45 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
I went through what you are going through with a whole string of clutches from Hayden. After a lot of research with them I discovered that they lowered the temperature that their clutches turn on and that was causing my problem.
After talking to Denny Allen I contacted AC Delco. It took several telephone calls to find the correct person who could talk intelligently about what clutch should fit what application. He took the original GM part number and crossed it to an AC delco 15-4208. The further took the fan diameter and fan pitch, which I got from Denny, and matched it also to the 15-4208.
At my request he then looked up the 15-4644 clutch and found it was for a much larger fan and with higher pitch and also with a larger pump shaft. It was supplied with an adapter for smaller shafts and could fit our small diameter water pump. So it could indeed be used on a GMC if desired. The 15-4644 also had a higher rotational speed than the 15-4208. I believe is was 70% vs. 50%. My memory could be wrong on these numbers.
He noted that the 15-4644 would take more power to turn it (only when engaged) and be a little harder on fan belts and noise. He recommended that I use new belts if I were going to the 15-4644 and inspect the pulleys for possible wear. He also stated that they had been successful in sand blasting the pulley belt surface for additional friction to the belt. The recommended minimum belt thickness for a 15-4644 was 1/2" where the recommended minimum belt thickness for 15-4208 was 3/8". Our belts are 7/16".
All of that said, I have had no problem with AC Delco's recommended 15-4208. I also do not live in the desert and do not tow anything. You might want to look at the 15-4644 if you think you need the higher air flow there in the desert southwest.
Lots of people are using both of there models with no problems. I suggest that you may have gotten several mis-calibrated ones from the same bad batch. I would go after another AC Delco clutch from a different source to get one made from a different batch. I have always ordered mine from www.AC-DIRECT.com. Also I believe Jim K. is selling the 15-4644. I do not know if he sells the 15-4208.
I have been using the 15-4208 with no problems for several years.
Now you know all I know about these clutches.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42672 is a reply to message #42667] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 07:28 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks to all who are watching this and helping it evolve. No doubt
that with the contributions coming in, one of them will do the job. I
should have the 15-4208 by Weds. I'll post the results.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Steve,
>
> I went through what you are going through with a whole string of clutches from Hayden. After a lot of research with them I discovered that they lowered the temperature that their clutches turn on and that was causing my problem.
>
> After talking to Denny Allen I contacted AC Delco. It took several telephone calls to find the correct person who could talk intelligently about what clutch should fit what application. He took the original GM part number and crossed it to an AC delco 15-4208. The further took the fan diameter and fan pitch, which I got from Denny, and matched it also to the 15-4208.
>
> At my request he then looked up the 15-4644 clutch and found it was for a much larger fan and with higher pitch and also with a larger pump shaft. It was supplied with an adapter for smaller shafts and could fit our small diameter water pump. So it could indeed be used on a GMC if desired. The 15-4644 also had a higher rotational speed than the 15-4208. I believe is was 70% vs. 50%. My memory could be wrong on these numbers.
>
> He noted that the 15-4644 would take more power to turn it (only when engaged) and be a little harder on fan belts and noise. He recommended that I use new belts if I were going to the 15-4644 and inspect the pulleys for possible wear. He also stated that they had been successful in sand blasting the pulley belt surface for additional friction to the belt. The recommended minimum belt thickness for a 15-4644 was 1/2" where the recommended minimum belt thickness for 15-4208 was 3/8". Our belts are 7/16".
>
> All of that said, I have had no problem with AC Delco's recommended 15-4208. I also do not live in the desert and do not tow anything. You might want to look at the 15-4644 if you think you need the higher air flow there in the desert southwest.
>
> Lots of people are using both of there models with no problems. I suggest that you may have gotten several mis-calibrated ones from the same bad batch. I would go after another AC Delco clutch from a different source to get one made from a different batch. I have always ordered mine from www.AC-DIRECT.com. Also I believe Jim K. is selling the 15-4644. I do not know if he sells the 15-4208.
>
> I have been using the 15-4208 with no problems for several years.
>
> Now you know all I know about these clutches.
>
> Ken B.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
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--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42677 is a reply to message #42673] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 08:30 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bruce,
I've contacted them, since it is Sat I don't expect a reply til next
week, if they reply at all. Nice site though. Thanks.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). It would be easy to set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>
> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp and scroll down to EC600/EC450.
>
> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our application though, mine seems to work fine.
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42694 is a reply to message #42673] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 12:00 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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They will tell you that they are working on one for gasoline engine.
They say that the RPM of gasoline higher so they are working on it.
When they come out with it, it should be terrific to have.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). Â It would be easy to set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>
> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp   and scroll down to EC600/EC450.
>
> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our application though, mine seems to work fine.
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42701 is a reply to message #42694] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 14:05 |
Surbo
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| jimk wrote on Sat, 09 May 2009 12:00 |
They will tell you that they are working on one for gasoline engine.
They say that the RPM of gasoline higher so they are working on it.
When they come out with it, it should be terrific to have.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). Â It would be easy to set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>
> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp   and scroll down to EC600/EC450.
>
> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our application though, mine seems to work fine.
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop,
> S. Ontario Canada
> 77PB, 455
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
Steve & Jim;
Borg-Warner has Four Seasons and Hayden in the family now, and knowing the past history of quality issues that Hayden has had, perhaps BW has turned this around. It is probably what AC-D is experiencing now. Here are a couple of sites you may want to look at. The Hayden severe duty #2797 is used in quite a few engine applications from mid 70’s vehicles with AC & trailer towing packages, which included the vehicles with the 350 Diesel, and the P-30 and MH chassis w/ 454 engines. The Four Seasons #36952 is not quite as rugged, but may be OK in the GMCMH. Just some thoughts, take a look at these sites, some good info here.
http://www.borgwarner.com/products/thermal/viscous-fan-drive/
http://thermal.borgwarner.com/PDFs/Viscous-Auto.pdf
They also have a fan clutch/fan combo that looks interesting.
Make sure the fan clutch is designed for CW rotation, there have been mix up with this.
Bob Drewes in SESD
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42702 is a reply to message #42694] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 14:17 |
Tin Gerbil
Messages: 236
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jim;
The price may be terrific also. The electric clutch on my lawn mower is
$450 and the one on the hydraulic pump on my boat is $650. The best
quality electric clutches have friction linings you can change without
removing the clutch. The problem with an electric clutch on the fan of
a gasoline engine is that it won't survive engaging at higher than 3000
rpm. On both the tractor and the boat, we always idle them before
manually engaging the clutch. It you don't, you weld them together as
there is no friction lining.
Gordon
Jim Kanomata wrote:
> They will tell you that they are working on one for gasoline engine.
> They say that the RPM of gasoline higher so they are working on it.
> When they come out with it, it should be terrific to have.
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would
>> make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). It would be easy to
>> set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>>
>> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp and scroll down to
>> EC600/EC450.
>>
>> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our
>> application though, mine seems to work fine.
>>
>>
>> -- Bruce Hislop, S. Ontario Canada 77PB, 455
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Gordon
'74 Canyon Lands "Tin Gerbil"
Vancouver Island, B.C.
|
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|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42704 is a reply to message #42702] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 15:09 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gordon,
I did not know that. I hope we can finger this fan clutch issue before
it cools off.
Bob D,
I'll look into the Borg W thing and see if it will be worth looking into.
I received the Delco catalog and have been reviewing .
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Gordon <wizwing@telus.net> wrote:
> Jim;
> The price may be terrific also. Â The electric clutch on my lawn mower is
> $450 and the one on the hydraulic pump on my boat is $650. Â The best
> quality electric clutches have friction linings you can change without
> removing the clutch. Â The problem with an electric clutch on the fan of
> a gasoline engine is that it won't survive engaging at higher than 3000
> rpm. Â On both the tractor and the boat, we always idle them before
> manually engaging the clutch. Â It you don't, you weld them together as
> there is no friction lining.
> Gordon
>
> Jim Kanomata wrote:
>> They will tell you that they are working on one for gasoline engine.
>> They say that the RPM of gasoline higher so they are working on it.
>> When they come out with it, it should be terrific to have.
>>
>> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would
>>> make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). Â It would be easy to
>>> set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>>>
>>> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp   and scroll down to
>>> EC600/EC450.
>>>
>>> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our
>>> application though, mine seems to work fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Bruce Hislop, S. Ontario Canada 77PB, 455
>>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ GMCnet mailing list
>>> Â List Information and Subscription Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42713 is a reply to message #42704] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 16:27 |
Tin Gerbil
Messages: 236
Registered: October 2006
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim;
I was about to describe the clutch on my Flex-fan in my parts coach,
until I had a close look and find a 3" spacer and no clutch. The shroud
looks MM too, as it does not cover the entire radiator from side to
side. Does Bert's shroud cover the entire radiator?
I think you have a puzzle with thermo-clutches that can only be solved
by experiment. A clutch that gives it's maximum rpm (which is probably
80% of pulley speed) at 200 degree water temp may work great on an
aluminum radiator, but not on a conventional radiator. You may need max
rpm at 190 degree water to not boil a conventional rad, because of the
lag in cooling capacity when the fan kicks in. Electric clutches claim
to save 1-2hp over thermo-clutches when not engaged and give you 100% of
pulley speed which greatly increases cooling when needed most. I STILL
THINK THE BEST (least expensive) SOLUTION IS THE SOB DUEL ELECTRIC FANS
IN FRONT OF THE RADIATOR.
When I fooled with cooling on a new 1979 350 OLDS Diesel pickup, I found
the engine oil temperature was at 250*F on a hard pull with the water at
180*F. I put in a 4 core rad and it made no change to the oil
temperature. I took the oil circuit out of the rad to a separate
passive cooler and never saw oil temps over 200*F again. That engine,
WITH THE TERRIBLE REPUTATION, went @270,000 miles before a genius
changed the thermostat, because "it was time". The new thermostat
stuck, the sudden burst of steam blew the end off the rad and the lady
driver decided to keep on trucking because she was in the middle of
"nowhere." 20 miles later, still "nowhere" the engine blew.
Thanks;
Gordon
Jim Kanomata wrote:
> Gordon,
> I did not know that. I hope we can finger this fan clutch issue before
> it cools off.
> Bob D,
> I'll look into the Borg W thing and see if it will be worth looking into.
> I received the Delco catalog and have been reviewing .
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Gordon <wizwing@telus.net> wrote:
>> Jim;
>> The price may be terrific also. The electric clutch on my lawn mower is
>> $450 and the one on the hydraulic pump on my boat is $650. The best
>> quality electric clutches have friction linings you can change without
>> removing the clutch. The problem with an electric clutch on the fan of
>> a gasoline engine is that it won't survive engaging at higher than 3000
>> rpm. On both the tractor and the boat, we always idle them before
>> manually engaging the clutch. It you don't, you weld them together as
>> there is no friction lining.
>> Gordon
>>
>> Jim Kanomata wrote:
>>> They will tell you that they are working on one for gasoline engine.
>>> They say that the RPM of gasoline higher so they are working on it.
>>> When they come out with it, it should be terrific to have.
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would
>>>> make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). It would be easy to
>>>> set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp and scroll down to
>>>> EC600/EC450.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our
>>>> application though, mine seems to work fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Bruce Hislop, S. Ontario Canada 77PB, 455
>>>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ GMCnet mailing list
>>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Gordon
'74 Canyon Lands "Tin Gerbil"
Vancouver Island, B.C.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42716 is a reply to message #42713] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 16:51 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
The Delco 15-4208 just came in the door. Just like I thought, light duty.
If you want to try it I'll send it to you.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Gordon <wizwing@telus.net> wrote:
> Jim;
> I was about to describe the clutch on my Flex-fan in my parts coach,
> until I had a close look and find a 3" spacer and no clutch. Â The shroud
> looks MM too, as it does not cover the entire radiator from side to
> side. Â Does Bert's shroud cover the entire radiator?
>
> I think you have a puzzle with thermo-clutches that can only be solved
> by experiment. Â A clutch that gives it's maximum rpm (which is probably
> 80% of pulley speed) at 200 degree water temp may work great on an
> aluminum radiator, but not on a conventional radiator. Â You may need max
> rpm at 190 degree water to not boil a conventional rad, because of the
> lag in cooling capacity when the fan kicks in. Â Electric clutches claim
> to save 1-2hp over thermo-clutches when not engaged and give you 100% of
> pulley speed which greatly increases cooling when needed most. Â I STILL
> THINK THE BEST (least expensive) SOLUTION IS THE SOB DUEL ELECTRIC FANS
> IN FRONT OF THE RADIATOR.
>
> When I fooled with cooling on a new 1979 350 OLDS Diesel pickup, I found
> the engine oil temperature was at 250*F on a hard pull with the water at
> 180*F. Â I put in a 4 core rad and it made no change to the oil
> temperature. Â I took the oil circuit out of the rad to a separate
> passive cooler and never saw oil temps over 200*F again. Â That engine,
> WITH THE TERRIBLE REPUTATION, went @270,000 miles before a genius
> changed the thermostat, because "it was time". Â The new thermostat
> stuck, the sudden burst of steam blew the end off the rad and the lady
> driver decided to keep on trucking because she was in the middle of
> "nowhere." Â 20 miles later, still "nowhere" the engine blew.
> Thanks;
> Gordon
>
> Jim Kanomata wrote:
>> Gordon,
>> I did not know that. I hope we can finger this fan clutch issue before
>> it cools off.
>> Bob D,
>> I'll look into the Borg W thing  and see if it will be worth looking into.
>> I received the Delco catalog and have been reviewing .
>>
>> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Gordon <wizwing@telus.net> wrote:
>>> Jim;
>>> The price may be terrific also. Â The electric clutch on my lawn mower is
>>> $450 and the one on the hydraulic pump on my boat is $650. Â The best
>>> quality electric clutches have friction linings you can change without
>>> removing the clutch. Â The problem with an electric clutch on the fan of
>>> a gasoline engine is that it won't survive engaging at higher than 3000
>>> rpm. Â On both the tractor and the boat, we always idle them before
>>> manually engaging the clutch. Â It you don't, you weld them together as
>>> there is no friction lining.
>>> Gordon
>>>
>>> Jim Kanomata wrote:
>>>> They will tell you that they are working on one for gasoline engine.
>>>> They say that the RPM of gasoline higher so they are working on it.
>>>> When they come out with it, it should be terrific to have.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 5:36 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm an electronics guy, so something like an electric clutch would
>>>>> make more sense to me (as used on A/C pumps). Â It would be easy to
>>>>> set the ON/OFF temperature to what ever you like.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.hortonww.com/products/products.asp   and scroll down to
>>>>> EC600/EC450.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't look far enough to see if there was a bolt-on unit for our
>>>>> application though, mine seems to work fine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Bruce Hislop, S. Ontario Canada 77PB, 455
>>>>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ GMCnet mailing list
>>>>> Â List Information and Subscription Options:
>>>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> List Information and Subscription Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42720 is a reply to message #42716] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 17:13 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| jimk wrote on Sat, 09 May 2009 16:51 |
Steve,
The Delco 15-4208 just came in the door. Just like I thought, light duty.
If you want to try it I'll send it to you.
|
Jim,
You keep calling it a light duty clutch. Compare it to an OEM one that you have removed from a GMC and tell us what you have then. It is the same size and capacity.
Bigger is NOT always better. If it was I would have 24 inch tires on my GMC. It this case a 15-4644 (which is also larger clutch) will work on a GMC using the supplied adapter sleeve but I'm not sure everyone wants or needs the additional airflow, power requirements, belt wear, noise, and cost.
It is up to the consumer / owner to decide.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
|
|
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fan Clutch [message #42725 is a reply to message #42716] |
Sat, 09 May 2009 17:38 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bob, Jim Roy,
Since I have all this time and nothing else to do, I found two brand
new Hayden 2797 fan clutches in my shop. One I bought in '02, don't
know about the other one. However, both are brand new. Tried 'em both
and today's a good day for it at 95 deg. Both come on at about 185
deg coolant temp, both freewheel at around 177 deg. and both take a
long time to get there. Takes care of that issue! However, I would be
willing to bet that these are good ones and as Rick stated, they just
don't want to work behind something that gives off heat as readily as
that aluminum radiator. '
I guess the 15-4208 is next in line. If it fails, I may just weld a
strap to the center piston and tie a heavy duty one in the freewheel
position. Not much to lose at this point. Wish I hadn't tossed my
old one in Palm Desert.
Send it Jim but I'm thinking that the light duty one will come on at
about the same temps as the others, just pull air as hard as the HD on
(4644).
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
Steve,
The Delco 15-4208 just came in the door. Just like I thought, light duty.
If you want to try it I'll send it to you.
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
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