Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Ethanol Based Problems
| [GMCnet] Ethanol Based Problems [message #38220] |
Wed, 18 March 2009 10:22  |
David L Greenberg
Messages: 899
Registered: January 2004
Location: Port St Lucie, FL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Rob, I'll file that away for future use. Good info!
Dave
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:08:58 +1100 "Rob Mueller"
<robmueller@iinet.net.au> writes:
> David,
>
> The fuel lines need to be:
>
> SAE 30R6 - Specially designed for gasohol and later carbureted
> vehicle
> applications.
>
> SAE 30R7 - Specially designed for gasohol and later carbureted
> vehicle
> applications with high under the hood temperatures.
>
> More technical info at:
>
> http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductListing.aspx?folderid=1036
>
> Available from:
>
> http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductId=300
>
> Regards,
> Rob Mueller
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
> [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of David L
> Greenberg
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2009 11:29 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Ethanol Based Problems
>
> You may recall I had a problem with some foreign material congealing
> in
> my carb on the Packard. Analysis revealed it was caused by ethanol
> combining with material in hsoes and the tank and plugging the jets
> in
> the carb.
>
> Not knowing another solution, I cleaned the tank (again) and rebuilt
> the
> carb (again) and installed a fuel/water seperator.
>
> recently i attended a seminar at a Napa location that revealed the
> effectss ethanol will have on fuel systems, especially in older
> vehicles.
> The solution is a new product from Sta-Bil and additive that is
> reported
> to prevent teh seperaation of the nasty stuff in the tank and
> lines.
>
> Sta-Bil is an old product but this new one is BLUE Sta-Bil, not the
> familiar pink. Not cheap at $8 but it could save you $$$$ down the
> road.
>
> David Lee Greenberg
> Port St Lucie, FL
> Dedicated to the Preservation of the Classic GMC Motorhome
> www.GMCmhRegistry.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> __________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
David Lee Greenberg
Port St Lucie, FL
Dedicated to the Preservation of the Classic GMC Motorhome
www.GMCmhRegistry.com
____________________________________________________________
Get ready for a relaxing horseback riding adventure! Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTHPuURvdTq2FqnNF3N57FfONosz9gxZPUHCXYGT6MaPUdUGhLLSAA/
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http:GMCmhRegistry.com
davegreenberg1@juno.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66619 is a reply to message #66516] |
Fri, 04 December 2009 08:37  |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Wanted to give ya an update on 2 coaches that this ethanol thing touched people "first person".
1-- Don Tracy, from this list, headed in my direction from Arlington Texas the beginning of this week. His coach has been sitting around and he wanted to just get out, roll and get a few things done. @ 4 hours from home, his coach started shutting down at higher speeds and going up overpasses. I told him to go get a carb filter and change his out. he said how long can he ride before he was down-- told him to flip that big coin!
He got the filter (WIX 33052), THE 1 1/8 & 5/8 WRENCHES TO CHANGE IT AND DID THE JOB IN A PARKING LOT. had a heck of a time getting the line back on but he is a "technician" now. called and said the coach was riding high again. Blew in the filter after it was out and sure nuff, it was clogged for sure!
His coach sat, the filter got clogged-- you guess what happened.
2-- A guy left our shop after we did some stuff to his coach-- no motor work at all. he came from Savannah with no problems. left here, got into ga., pulled off the highway and the coach died at the exit-- would not restart. No fuel, would not start, showed 1/2 tank on the gauge. Left him there, my guess-- gauge is off, fuel got low-- filter was restricting and carb got no fuel. Was cost sensative so I did not bring up and check the filter-- looks like I should do that on everything that comes in!
Also have completely switched to a barrier style fuel hose for everything-- no option!
Jim Bounds
-----------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Black <r1black@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 5:32:27 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
Jeff,
Don't be sorry for the lesson. I thought E-85 was gas with 15%
ethanol. So, chemistry lesson learned. Thanks.
Seems we need to prepare for E-85 now, just in case the gov't goes
wild again. <G>
Roger Black
Burns, TN
77 Birchaven SB
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66682 is a reply to message #66619] |
Fri, 04 December 2009 23:31 |
Mitch
Messages: 272
Registered: May 2009
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dumb question?
What is a "barrier Style" fuel line?
Mitch
Tacoma, Wa.
'80 Spitfire
'03 Windstar
'77 Jaguar XJ6-C
X(very)'76 PB 26 "The Beast"
Where it rains, always.
It's wet, No sun, Gray.
Go to Oregon.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66712 is a reply to message #66516] |
Sat, 05 December 2009 18:16 |
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E-85 would be great actually, you could rebuld your olds to run 12.5:1 Compression and make rediculous torque. E-85 is what I sometimes run in my turbo mustang, at 105 octane its basically cheap race fuel. I chipped the ECM and added larger injectors so bascally I can flip a switch and fill with E85. I ran it that way for 5k miles with no problems except a small drip from one of the injectors, but a switch of the o rings to ones compatable with alcohol fixed that.
on a GMC converted to MPEFI running E85 all you would need to do is make sure the fuel lines were upgraded, and that you had a second fuel map for the fuel, so that you could freely switch the 2 should you be in an area where E-85 was not available. for a carb application it is not so easy, you would need an E85 carb, but many manufactureres like Demon, Berry Grant, and others already make e-85 carbs. its not as simple as adding alcohol jets because E-85 doesnt like the zinc cast bodies of most carbs so e-85 units are plated to resist that effect. expect to drop about 6-7 bills on one.
Basically becacause of Ethanol in most gas its not a bad idea to rehose our coaches with approved for e85 hose. thise hose is also just fine for standard fuel and gives you that extra protection for alcohol fuels. the reason E-10 blens are so sommon is the fact that the government gives a 50 cet a gallon credit to fuel companies who blend it, as opposed to running plain gas. Ethanol isnt bad as a fuel if you set your motor up to use it correctly. basically flexfuel/gasoline engines are not setup to run E-85 to its potential out of the box because of their lower compression ratios to make them compatable with crappy 87 octane fuels. as a result you see a 20 to 30% drop in MPG with E-85, a motor designed to use E-85 will make substantially more power and deliver beter fuel economy by taking full advantage of that 105 octane....
| comcast wrote on Thu, 03 December 2009 16:32 |
Jeff,
Don't be sorry for the lesson. I thought E-85 was gas with 15%
ethanol. So, chemistry lesson learned. Thanks.
Seems we need to prepare for E-85 now, just in case the gov't goes
wild again. <G>
Roger Black
Burns, TN
77 Birchaven SB
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73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66714 is a reply to message #66712] |
Sat, 05 December 2009 18:31 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Duce Apocalypse wrote on Sat, 05 December 2009 19:16 |
E-85 would be great actually, you could rebuild your olds to run 12.5:1 Compression and make ridiculous torque. E-85 is what I sometimes run in my turbo mustang, at 105 octane its basically cheap race fuel. I chipped the ECM and added larger injectors so basically I can flip a switch and fill with E85. I ran it that way for 5k miles with no problems except a small drip from one of the injectors, but a switch of the o rings to ones compatible with alcohol fixed that.
on a GMC converted to MPEFI running E85 all you would need to do is make sure the fuel lines were upgraded, and that you had a second fuel map for the fuel, so that you could freely switch the 2 should you be in an area where E-85 was not available. for a carb application it is not so easy, you would need an E85 carb, but many manufacturers like Demon, Berry Grant, and others already make e-85 carbs. its not as simple as adding alcohol jets because E-85 doesnt like the zinc cast bodies of most carbs so e-85 units are plated to resist that effect. expect to drop about 6-7 bills on one.
Basically because of Ethanol in most gas its not a bad idea to rehose our coaches with approved for e85 hose. this hose is also just fine for standard fuel and gives you that extra protection for alcohol fuels. the reason E-10 blends are so common is the fact that the government gives a 50 cent a gallon credit to fuel companies who blend it, as opposed to running plain gas. Ethanol isnt bad as a fuel if you set your motor up to use it correctly. basically flexfuel/gasoline engines are not setup to run E-85 to its potential out of the box because of their lower compression ratios to make them compatible with crappy 87 octane fuels. as a result you see a 20 to 30% drop in MPG with E-85, a motor designed to use E-85 will make substantially more power and deliver better fuel economy by taking full advantage of that 105 octane....
|
That might be a half a good plan, but to get the range for a day's travel it would have to install a third 25 gallon tank. That will be particularly difficult as a 23 does not have the spare frame bay to install same.
If a motor designed for E-85 will do so well, why do the people that I know that have them still report non-economic fuel rates as compared to E-15?
There are few vehicles sold with a preferred fuel of E-85.
Does any manufacturer yet report fuel consumption with E-85?
I've been out of the industry a few years.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66717 is a reply to message #66714] |
Sat, 05 December 2009 19:01 |
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| Quote: |
That might be a half a good plan, but to get the range for a day's travel it would have to install a third 25 gallon tank. That will be particularly difficult as a 23 does not have the spare frame bay to install same.
If a motor designed for E-85 will do so well, why do the people that I know that have them still report non-economic fuel rates as compared to E-15?
There are few vehicles sold with a preferred fuel of E-85.
Does any manufacturer yet report fuel consumption with E-85?
I've been out of the industry a few years.
Matt
|
Matt, as far as I know, all of the engines currently put in flexfuel vehicles still have to be compatable with 87 pump gas, this means lower compression ratios, and retarded timing to make the engine survive if you should put 87 in it. the fuel systems are optimized for Ethanol, but not the engine. to really take advantage of ethanol you need at least 11.5:1 CR this would make the motor undrivable on most pump gas, though in some parts of the country you can find 94, which migh barely be enoough, but most likely you would need a blend of pump and 100 octane to be safe.
The only full time ethanol engines I know of are strictly race motors, usually used in 1/4 mile intervols so tracking MPG is a little difficult there. alot of gear heads likemyself are on the E-85 bandwagon not becasue I give a rats bum about envronment or the BS of "climate change" which theres a big story in the news about how they are pumping up false data to foster that "chicken little syndrome" that the earth is gonna melt, im in on E-85 for 2 reasons, its domestically produced, which means we can tell OPEC to drink it out of tea cups, and its 105 octane for $2.75 a gallon in my area! that sure beats the pants of of paying unical 76 8.63 for 100 octane race fuel. so the fact that it happens to burn cleaner is just a nice side effect.
I will have to say I have no idea how E-85 will burn in a large heavy vehicle like our coaches, but it would be nice to see maybe a beefed 403 or 455 with 12:1 CR running it and see what happens as an experiment. unfortunately I dont have the resources to make it happen currently or I'd try it just for the hell of it...
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66728 is a reply to message #66717] |
Sat, 05 December 2009 21:20 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Duce Apocalypse wrote on Sat, 05 December 2009 20:01 |
Matt, as far as I know, all of the engines currently put in flexfuel vehicles still have to be compatible with 87 pump gas, this means lower compression ratios, and retarded timing to make the engine survive if you should put 87 in it. the fuel systems are optimized for Ethanol, but not the engine. to really take advantage of ethanol you need at least 11.5:1 CR this would make the motor undriveable on most pump gas, though in some parts of the country you can find 94, which might barely be enough, but most likely you would need a blend of pump and 100 octane to be safe.
The only full time ethanol engines I know of are strictly race motors, usually used in 1/4 mile intervals so tracking MPG is a little difficult there. a lot of gear heads like myself are on the E-85 bandwagon not because I give a rats bum about environment or the BS of "climate change" which there's a big story in the news about how they are pumping up false data to foster that "chicken little syndrome" that the earth is gonna melt, I'm in on E-85 for 2 reasons, its domestically produced, which means we can tell OPEC to drink it out of tea cups, and its 105 octane for $2.75 a gallon in my area! that sure beats the pants of of paying unical 76 8.63 for 100 octane race fuel. so the fact that it happens to burn cleaner is just a nice side effect.
I will have to say I have no idea how E-85 will burn in a large heavy vehicle like our coaches, but it would be nice to see maybe a beefed 403 or 455 with 12:1 CR running it and see what happens as an experiment. unfortunately I don't have the resources to make it happen currently or I'd try it just for the hell of it...
|
Shan,
Apart from the economic and environmental issues, I will be hard pressed to ever believe that any alcohol based fuel will be effective. There is some good background as to why.
I ran two very different projects many years ago.
One was for a group that was trying to develop a USAC(pre IRL) engine. The other was for VW do Brazil. It was a development program for the alcohol fuel available there.
The USAC engines were turbo-charged and could not be related to anything nearly street legal. We were able to make very good
horsepower with the associated durability issues (it still had to run for 2+hr flat out). They were also neat methanol though it is a better motor fuel, it still has issues.
There were several different engine families in the program and the target was to make one a commercially viable production passcar powerplant. Because of VW's diesel programs, we had all manner of strange components available. There was nothing that we could make reliable over 10.5 CR. We even started off with a diesel block and parts and had to let the CR down from 21.
There were two very large gorillas in the room. One was the very low heat value of alcohol. For any of the test vehicles to make target tank range, we had to encroach on the trunk space and give up carrying a spare tire. Another was lubricity failures. There were no lubricants that were effective with even a little alcohol dilution and with its lack of lubricity, if the engine ever went rich enough (like during a Michigan winter cold start), the rings and bore finish were damaged.
There was another and that was the water content that dramatically effects how the fuel will perform. We had to bring in a truck and sample the load(s) for water content. This took some time and the hauler was always touchy about it. On several occasions it was unacceptable.
Don't worry about our foreign oil sources too much, most of your petroleum is imported from Canada. There is actually a confirmed 100 year supply within the US, but our people aren't allowed to go and get it. The Chinese are in Cuba and may well be tapping the confirmed reserves in US territory with directional drilling techniques that many in the environmental community believe are unsafe. The country could be down to zero imported fuel in three years if it were allowed to happen.
Bio-diesel has a much better chance, but even that has some issues that have to be hammered flat before it is ready for prime time.
This doen't mean you shouldn't keep playing with your Mustang. I had a severely worked (275+Hp) TurboCoupe for a few years (lots of kid with 5.0 'Stangs wondering what the fat old man just did to them) and it was a lot of fun but a bear to keep calibrated. Then it started to rust.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66732 is a reply to message #66728] |
Sat, 05 December 2009 22:34 |
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| mcolie wrote on Sat, 05 December 2009 21:20 |
| Duce Apocalypse wrote on Sat, 05 December 2009 20:01 |
Matt, as far as I know, all of the engines currently put in flexfuel vehicles still have to be compatible with 87 pump gas, this means lower compression ratios, and retarded timing to make the engine survive if you should put 87 in it. the fuel systems are optimized for Ethanol, but not the engine. to really take advantage of ethanol you need at least 11.5:1 CR this would make the motor undriveable on most pump gas, though in some parts of the country you can find 94, which might barely be enough, but most likely you would need a blend of pump and 100 octane to be safe.
The only full time ethanol engines I know of are strictly race motors, usually used in 1/4 mile intervals so tracking MPG is a little difficult there. a lot of gear heads like myself are on the E-85 bandwagon not because I give a rats bum about environment or the BS of "climate change" which there's a big story in the news about how they are pumping up false data to foster that "chicken little syndrome" that the earth is gonna melt, I'm in on E-85 for 2 reasons, its domestically produced, which means we can tell OPEC to drink it out of tea cups, and its 105 octane for $2.75 a gallon in my area! that sure beats the pants of of paying unical 76 8.63 for 100 octane race fuel. so the fact that it happens to burn cleaner is just a nice side effect.
I will have to say I have no idea how E-85 will burn in a large heavy vehicle like our coaches, but it would be nice to see maybe a beefed 403 or 455 with 12:1 CR running it and see what happens as an experiment. unfortunately I don't have the resources to make it happen currently or I'd try it just for the hell of it...
|
Shan,
Apart from the economic and environmental issues, I will be hard pressed to ever believe that any alcohol based fuel will be effective. There is some good background as to why.
I ran two very different projects many years ago.
One was for a group that was trying to develop a USAC(pre IRL) engine. The other was for VW do Brazil. It was a development program for the alcohol fuel available there.
The USAC engines were turbo-charged and could not be related to anything nearly street legal. We were able to make very good
horsepower with the associated durability issues (it still had to run for 2+hr flat out). They were also neat methanol though it is a better motor fuel, it still has issues.
There were several different engine families in the program and the target was to make one a commercially viable production passcar powerplant. Because of VW's diesel programs, we had all manner of strange components available. There was nothing that we could make reliable over 10.5 CR. We even started off with a diesel block and parts and had to let the CR down from 21.
There were two very large gorillas in the room. One was the very low heat value of alcohol. For any of the test vehicles to make target tank range, we had to encroach on the trunk space and give up carrying a spare tire. Another was lubricity failures. There were no lubricants that were effective with even a little alcohol dilution and with its lack of lubricity, if the engine ever went rich enough (like during a Michigan winter cold start), the rings and bore finish were damaged.
There was another and that was the water content that dramatically effects how the fuel will perform. We had to bring in a truck and sample the load(s) for water content. This took some time and the hauler was always touchy about it. On several occasions it was unacceptable.
Don't worry about our foreign oil sources too much, most of your petroleum is imported from Canada. There is actually a confirmed 100 year supply within the US, but our people aren't allowed to go and get it. The Chinese are in Cuba and may well be tapping the confirmed reserves in US territory with directional drilling techniques that many in the environmental community believe are unsafe. The country could be down to zero imported fuel in three years if it were allowed to happen.
Bio-diesel has a much better chance, but even that has some issues that have to be hammered flat before it is ready for prime time.
This doen't mean you shouldn't keep playing with your Mustang. I had a severely worked (275+Hp) TurboCoupe for a few years (lots of kid with 5.0 'Stangs wondering what the fat old man just did to them) and it was a lot of fun but a bear to keep calibrated. Then it started to rust.
Matt
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yeah I know, my 88 stang is kinda sitting I really need to tune it again, it runs but not as well as it should. most of my projects I had to put on hold and are still on hold after I got laid off last january, even though I am employed again, im now playing catchup to get out of the debit that 5 months with out a job will do to you. so we will see what comes in the new year. Im thinking I may need a change of venue, as a decent paying job in So Cal is pretty scarce these days.
I am also well aware of the fact that the US still has massive oil reserves, and the idiots in DC are the main reason we cant get at it. I also knew that most of the imports to the US are from our neighbors. Still OPEC weilds alot of clout because they supply alot of the other side of the world, and the only 2 things I will see that could mitigate that would be a secondary source of fuel from a non oil source or fully developing our domestic reserves, since I dont see the latter happening, due to the current political climate, there may be some hope for the former. Butanol looks like it would be a much better replacement for gasoline then Ethanol, though it lacks the higher octane, it does have much denser energy content and is almost on par with Gasoline.
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66739 is a reply to message #66714] |
Sun, 06 December 2009 02:47 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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That might be a half a good plan, but to get the range for a day's travel it would have to install a third 25 gallon tank. That will be particularly difficult as a 23 does not have the spare frame bay to install same.
If a motor designed for E-85 will do so well, why do the people that I know that have them still report non-economic fuel rates as compared to E-15?
____________________________________________________________
When GasAhaul came out I was making meticulous records of my vehicles mileage. I tried to get fuel with no Alcohol but then I noticed my milage take a rather sharp drop, a drop of 50 miles per tank, and this was over 3 vehicles. Then I found out the fuels had the 10 per cent alcohol added.
When I mentioned my findings to any of the car forums I used to visit, they said I was crazy and that the car was out of tune. I gave up the argument but I knew better.
I now know that the alcohol added to the gas picks up the crap in the tank or, cleans your tank up, unfortunately, it will tend to apply it to the carb and then you can have problems.
After all the problems I have had with the power loss BS recently, I am concerned if the hoses that were replaced will leech and cause more concern.
This is a big concern and seems to me a bad deal for the US citizen. I know we are burning more per gallon but they say we are cleaning the atmosphere. But if I am loosing 50 gallons per tankful, that means we are burning an aditional 2 to 5 gallons of fuel, to cover the same distance as the plain fuel without the alcohol added. This means, if I understand my readings right, that we are actually using more fuel and dumping more crap into the air. If I am right, this is crazy. Does not make sense either economically or environmentally.
LarC ( Looking for a way to up the MPH and use less GasOhol )
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
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[Updated on: Sun, 06 December 2009 02:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #67048 is a reply to message #38220] |
Wed, 09 December 2009 18:02 |
Gary Cottingame
Messages: 85
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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Member |
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Jim,
Do you have pictures of your fuel filter system. Possibly manufacture name and numbers. I don't loke the idea of changing carb filters on the side of the road either. I have used this type of filter/seperator and they work quite well.
Thanks
Gary
73 26 CL
TZE21
Denison, Tx
Gary L. Cottingame
Independent Associate
Prepaid Legal Services
903-890-0102
www.prepaidlegal.com/hub/gcottingame
--- On Wed, 12/9/09, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote:
From: Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 8:27 AM
JimB.
I totally agree with what you are seeing and doing. ....except instead of carrying around a pocket full of carb filters and having to change them out all of the time (and on the side of the road), get something like what I have (a fuel filter / water separator ). They have more capacity to catch the goop without plugging up. They are more user friendly with a clear sight glass, drane, and spin on filter. No more crossed threads at the carb. I can't take credit for the set up on ANNIE, it was installed by a PO(only painted over when the frame was painted).
Not being a mechanic and looking for it, I didn't notice that it was there. I only found out what it was and what I had when Leigh Harrison pointed it out to me at a TIDEWATER CRAB rally.
A few days later I took ANNIE down to MIKE's gas station and we spun off the filter/separator and cleaned off the paint to find out whose we had and then found a local supplier here in Richmond for the filter. I had been driving ANNIE for 4 years with that filter and who knows how long the PO had driven it. But the PO must have had a fuel problem or why would he spend $80 for the filter/separator system? When Mike and I cleaned the old filter and sight glass, it was full of a rusty looking liquid when dried was a very fine rusty dust that was about 1/2" deep. The engine never showed any symptoms of fuel starvation and the carb filter that JimB had installed 4 years before still looked new after we cut it apart.
I believe that the carb filters work as they should, just don't have the capacity to clean up the whole fuel systems under these condtions. Kind of like filling a bath tube with a tea spoon.
jim galbavy
'73 X-CL (ANNIE)
Chesterfield, Va
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #67049 is a reply to message #67048] |
Wed, 09 December 2009 19:01 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gary,
Here's what the filter Ken Frey installed in the line that comes up from the
frame and enters the mechanical fuel pump.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-562-1/?image=large
Whether or not this is the exact filter I don't know.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Cottingame
Sent: Thursday, 10 December 2009 11:03 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
Jim,
Do you have pictures of your fuel filter system. Possibly manufacture name
and numbers. I don't loke the idea of changing carb filters on the side of
the road either. I have used this type of filter/seperator and they work
quite well.
Thanks
Gary
73 26 CL
TZE21
Denison, Tx
Gary L. Cottingame
Independent Associate
Prepaid Legal Services
903-890-0102
www.prepaidlegal.com/hub/gcottingame
--- On Wed, 12/9/09, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote:
From: Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 8:27 AM
JimB.
I totally agree with what you are seeing and doing. ....except instead of
carrying around a pocket full of carb filters and having to change them out
all of the time (and on the side of the road), get something like what I
have (a fuel filter / water separator ). They have more capacity to catch
the goop without plugging up. They are more user friendly with a clear sight
glass, drane, and spin on filter. No more crossed threads at the carb. I
can't take credit for the set up on ANNIE, it was installed by a PO(only
painted over when the frame was painted).
Not being a mechanic and looking for it, I didn't notice that it was there.
I only found out what it was and what I had when Leigh Harrison pointed it
out to me at a TIDEWATER CRAB rally.
A few days later I took ANNIE down to MIKE's gas station and we spun off the
filter/separator and cleaned off the paint to find out whose we had and then
found a local supplier here in Richmond for the filter. I had been driving
ANNIE for 4 years with that filter and who knows how long the PO had driven
it. But the PO must have had a fuel problem or why would he spend $80 for
the filter/separator system? When Mike and I cleaned the old filter and
sight glass, it was full of a rusty looking liquid when dried was a very
fine rusty dust that was about 1/2" deep. The engine never showed any
symptoms of fuel starvation and the carb filter that JimB had installed 4
years before still looked new after we cut it apart.
I believe that the carb filters work as they should, just don't have the
capacity to clean up the whole fuel systems under these condtions. Kind of
like filling a bath tube with a tea spoon.
jim galbavy
'73 X-CL (ANNIE)
Chesterfield, Va
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #67054 is a reply to message #67050] |
Wed, 09 December 2009 21:56 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Capacity of the filters should be considered as the tanks will
continue to send out particulets out of the tank.
We supply the one where you replace the filter element and the
element has roughly about 4 times the media area as the one shown.
You must also address the fact that the new fuel will vapor lock lot
more easily than before.
You can see how we addressed this problem several years ago by
employing a low pressure high volume pump with a bypass valve. Go to
our web site unde Engine and you'll see it and als go to instrctions
for detail.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Gary,
>
> What I have is a marine gasoline filter/water separator assy. # 320R-RAC-01 by the RACOR Div. of Parker-Hannifin. Â The Kit (filter and gasket) Â Number is 20707 and the filter alone is S3227. Â It sure works for me.
> It's mounted to the front frame clip behind the steering gear and next to the tire.
>
> jim galbavy
> '73 X-CL (ANNIE)
> Chesterfield, Va
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
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List Information and Subscription Options:
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #67072 is a reply to message #67054] |
Thu, 10 December 2009 08:48 |
cboutellzs3
Messages: 6
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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This may be redundant, but Mercury Motors (outboard motors) had a good description on their website of some of the problems caused by ethanol fuel. The major issue is that in open systems the moist air continues to have moisture extracted by the alcohol. The same process that HEET used to flush water out of the tank, but the little amount of ethanol in a can of HEET was miniscule compared to the 5 gallons of ethanol in full GMC Motorhome tank(s). Unfortunately once the alcohol is saturated it settles to the bottom of the tank and will not mix with the remaining gasoline. Hence the rust and other problems. The saturated stuff then starts to form little chunks of solid material. A google search of " fuel phase separation" will bring up lots of articles. Marine environments and/or partially filled tanks (open system) that are not used for long periods of time have the biggest problem. Many premium fuels do not contain ethanol. Modern fuel injected systems are closed so the ethan
ol is not a problem, but earlier motorhome systems can best be described as "wide open".
ZDDP and ethanol..................what's next?
Chuck Boutell
ex 75 Avion owner but still a GMC Motorhome fan.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Kanomata" <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 9:56:59 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
Capacity of the filters should be considered as the tanks will
continue to send out particulets out of the tank.
We supply the one where you replace the filter element and the
element has roughly about 4 times the media area as the one shown.
You must also address the fact that the new fuel will vapor lock lot
more easily than before.
You can see how we addressed this problem several years ago by
employing a low pressure high volume pump with a bypass valve. Go to
our web site unde Engine and you'll see it and als go to instrctions
for detail.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Gary,
>
> What I have is a marine gasoline filter/water separator assy. # 320R-RAC-01 by the RACOR Div. of Parker-Hannifin. The Kit (filter and gasket) Number is 20707 and the filter alone is S3227. It sure works for me.
> It's mounted to the front frame clip behind the steering gear and next to the tire.
>
> jim galbavy
> '73 X-CL (ANNIE)
> Chesterfield, Va
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol Based Problems [message #67088 is a reply to message #38220] |
Thu, 10 December 2009 10:58 |
Steve Stolley
Messages: 61
Registered: April 2008
Location: Ivins, Utah
Karma: 0
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Member |
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This is a very interesting post, together with the other ethanol post that's going on concurrently. I'd like to suggest that one of our tech experts consider doing a presentation on dealing with ethanol at one of the GMCMI and/or GMCWS rallies. It sounds as though there may be several options and opinions on how to deal with the potential problems that result from ethanol spiked fuel. I for one don't want to have to flip a coin to decide whether to stock up on carb filters, use the filter Jim K. sells or the one Jim G is using and appears to have good luck with. Does it make a difference it you have an electric fuel pump or FI of ??? This is starting to sound like a "tires" post.
Thanks
Steve Stolley
76 Glenbrook
Ivins, Utah
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